248 réponses à ce sujet

[DEATHSCOPE]

Sisterofshane wrote...

xsdob wrote...

Lookout1390 wrote...

xsdob wrote...

EnvyTB075 wrote...

Lookout1390 wrote...

Absolutely not.

Like most things in ME3, they were changed to accommodate the new crowd.

They completely butchered TIM's character. Taking everything away from him what made him so appealing/awesome in ME2.

This.

So your just hating on it because mass effect 3 did it, good to know you have your priorities straight and looked up nothing on the illusive man outside of his video game cameo.

Nice to see you disprove my point with no facts or info to back your statement up, and to actually address my argument.

Oh wait, you actually did none of that.

My mistake.

What he did to paul grayson was beyond horrible, and what he allowed to happen with his other agents is unforgviable. The countless lives he's ruined pre-mass effect 3 are truly horrific, and nothing justifyes that.

Nothing goes by him unnoticed, nothing happens in cerberus without his knowledge and approval. The books conveyed that very well, he was a monster and his portrayl in mass effect 3 is the most accurate depiction of his character to all the other mateirals than mass effect 2's.

I don't know.  The other media seems to go both ways.  In Evolution we see his origin, and he doesn't seem unreasonable there.  I figured that he has always known that the Reapers were coming (at least since Evolution), and everything you see afterwards up until ME3 is him doing what is necessary to defeat them 9even if his methods are a little ruthless, they all had purpose).

And then ME2 came out, and they really reinforce that stereotype.  Especially when you begin to see that much of what he does pays out.

What happens between TIM and the Reapers in ME3 is a complete role-reversal.  They really would have done better to keep the Reapers as the big-bad, and have cerberus be morally gray (even if TIM wasn't).

Wait, I thought Cerberus WAS morally gray? Didn't some of their employees got tired of TIM and switched sides? Also, I hate Cerberus. Really, they had all those manpower and technology but didn't use any of it to help me in my fight against the Collectors. WTF TIM.

[dreman9999]

Starch wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

But ME3 asks the obvious question to if humanity asked them to look after them and if they are going too extreme. That's always been there theme since they first showed up. The moment the proto reaper came into there hands it's obvious they wer going to go to the extreme.

Yes they're extreme, but they also made valuable contributions. 

Back in ME2 days, i always thought they're gunning for the opposite end of the spectrum (not controlling reapers) but something like to use reaper tech against the reapers wherein if shep's method was more conventional way, cerby's efforts were the un-convetional way in defeating reapers. But came ME3 and TIM was indoctrinated and they became villians. 

I'm not quetioning the contributions. I'm just pointing out that they always cam too close to the fire. Sure, they are the reason we are able to fight the reapers but they still sacrificed too much. That was always there theme, how much is need to sacrifice untill it was too much.

[dreman9999]

DEATHSCOPE wrote...

Sisterofshane wrote...

xsdob wrote...

Lookout1390 wrote...

xsdob wrote...

EnvyTB075 wrote...

Lookout1390 wrote...

Absolutely not.

Like most things in ME3, they were changed to accommodate the new crowd.

They completely butchered TIM's character. Taking everything away from him what made him so appealing/awesome in ME2.

This.

So your just hating on it because mass effect 3 did it, good to know you have your priorities straight and looked up nothing on the illusive man outside of his video game cameo.

Nice to see you disprove my point with no facts or info to back your statement up, and to actually address my argument.

Oh wait, you actually did none of that.

My mistake.

What he did to paul grayson was beyond horrible, and what he allowed to happen with his other agents is unforgviable. The countless lives he's ruined pre-mass effect 3 are truly horrific, and nothing justifyes that.

Nothing goes by him unnoticed, nothing happens in cerberus without his knowledge and approval. The books conveyed that very well, he was a monster and his portrayl in mass effect 3 is the most accurate depiction of his character to all the other mateirals than mass effect 2's.

I don't know.  The other media seems to go both ways.  In Evolution we see his origin, and he doesn't seem unreasonable there.  I figured that he has always known that the Reapers were coming (at least since Evolution), and everything you see afterwards up until ME3 is him doing what is necessary to defeat them 9even if his methods are a little ruthless, they all had purpose).

And then ME2 came out, and they really reinforce that stereotype.  Especially when you begin to see that much of what he does pays out.

What happens between TIM and the Reapers in ME3 is a complete role-reversal.  They really would have done better to keep the Reapers as the big-bad, and have cerberus be morally gray (even if TIM wasn't).

Wait, I thought Cerberus WAS morally gray? Didn't some of their employees got tired of TIM and switched sides? Also, I hate Cerberus. Really, they had all those manpower and technology but didn't use any of it to help me in my fight against the Collectors. WTF TIM.

Did you forget how they got that man power in the first place? Did you not play sactuary?

[dreman9999]

AeonFrog wrote...

xsdob wrote...

CSI_Spectre wrote...

I think Cerberus could have been handled much better. They were never an organization that did these evil things without a good reason.

Admiral Kahoku and Akuze.

Kahoku was a major liability. Any clandestine organization that cared about its secrets would have taken him out. Although, I'll admit that Akuze was extreme.

...And progect zero.....And the test of reaper tech on colonist in ME1. The many weapons programs....The staged ezoo accidents used to get more biotics. Cerberus is clearly ruthless.

[DEATHSCOPE]

dreman9999 wrote...

DEATHSCOPE wrote...

Sisterofshane wrote...

xsdob wrote...

Lookout1390 wrote...

xsdob wrote...

EnvyTB075 wrote...

Lookout1390 wrote...

Absolutely not.

Like most things in ME3, they were changed to accommodate the new crowd.

They completely butchered TIM's character. Taking everything away from him what made him so appealing/awesome in ME2.

This.

So your just hating on it because mass effect 3 did it, good to know you have your priorities straight and looked up nothing on the illusive man outside of his video game cameo.

Nice to see you disprove my point with no facts or info to back your statement up, and to actually address my argument.

Oh wait, you actually did none of that.

My mistake.

What he did to paul grayson was beyond horrible, and what he allowed to happen with his other agents is unforgviable. The countless lives he's ruined pre-mass effect 3 are truly horrific, and nothing justifyes that.

Nothing goes by him unnoticed, nothing happens in cerberus without his knowledge and approval. The books conveyed that very well, he was a monster and his portrayl in mass effect 3 is the most accurate depiction of his character to all the other mateirals than mass effect 2's.

I don't know.  The other media seems to go both ways.  In Evolution we see his origin, and he doesn't seem unreasonable there.  I figured that he has always known that the Reapers were coming (at least since Evolution), and everything you see afterwards up until ME3 is him doing what is necessary to defeat them 9even if his methods are a little ruthless, they all had purpose).

And then ME2 came out, and they really reinforce that stereotype.  Especially when you begin to see that much of what he does pays out.

What happens between TIM and the Reapers in ME3 is a complete role-reversal.  They really would have done better to keep the Reapers as the big-bad, and have cerberus be morally gray (even if TIM wasn't).

Wait, I thought Cerberus WAS morally gray? Didn't some of their employees got tired of TIM and switched sides? Also, I hate Cerberus. Really, they had all those manpower and technology but didn't use any of it to help me in my fight against the Collectors. WTF TIM.

Did you forget how they got that man power in the first place? Did you not play sactuary?

I'm pretty sure that they had at least some firepower even before Sanctuary.

[o Ventus]

dreman9999 wrote...

DEATHSCOPE wrote...

Sisterofshane wrote...

xsdob wrote...

Lookout1390 wrote...

xsdob wrote...

EnvyTB075 wrote...

Lookout1390 wrote...

Absolutely not.

Like most things in ME3, they were changed to accommodate the new crowd.

They completely butchered TIM's character. Taking everything away from him what made him so appealing/awesome in ME2.

This.

So your just hating on it because mass effect 3 did it, good to know you have your priorities straight and looked up nothing on the illusive man outside of his video game cameo.

Nice to see you disprove my point with no facts or info to back your statement up, and to actually address my argument.

Oh wait, you actually did none of that.

My mistake.

What he did to paul grayson was beyond horrible, and what he allowed to happen with his other agents is unforgviable. The countless lives he's ruined pre-mass effect 3 are truly horrific, and nothing justifyes that.

Nothing goes by him unnoticed, nothing happens in cerberus without his knowledge and approval. The books conveyed that very well, he was a monster and his portrayl in mass effect 3 is the most accurate depiction of his character to all the other mateirals than mass effect 2's.

I don't know.  The other media seems to go both ways.  In Evolution we see his origin, and he doesn't seem unreasonable there.  I figured that he has always known that the Reapers were coming (at least since Evolution), and everything you see afterwards up until ME3 is him doing what is necessary to defeat them 9even if his methods are a little ruthless, they all had purpose).

And then ME2 came out, and they really reinforce that stereotype.  Especially when you begin to see that much of what he does pays out.

What happens between TIM and the Reapers in ME3 is a complete role-reversal.  They really would have done better to keep the Reapers as the big-bad, and have cerberus be morally gray (even if TIM wasn't).

Wait, I thought Cerberus WAS morally gray? Didn't some of their employees got tired of TIM and switched sides? Also, I hate Cerberus. Really, they had all those manpower and technology but didn't use any of it to help me in my fight against the Collectors. WTF TIM.

Did you forget how they got that man power in the first place? Did you not play sactuary?

Sanctuary wasn't an established... establishment... until ME3.


Up until then, they recruited people the American way. With mass amounts of anti Soviet-- I mean, anti-Alliance and pro Capitalist-- I mean, pro human propaganda.

Sanctuary wasn't a place until refugees started to pop up everywhere form the onset of the Reaper invasion.

[xsdob]

AeonFrog wrote...

xsdob wrote...

CSI_Spectre wrote...

I think Cerberus could have been handled much better. They were never an organization that did these evil things without a good reason.

Admiral Kahoku and Akuze.

Kahoku was a major liability. Any clandestine organization that cared about its secrets would have taken him out. Although, I'll admit that Akuze was extreme.

The fact that they used thresar maws not once but twice to dispose of alliance marines tells me they weren't interested in data the first time they did this.

[Seifer006]

winterbrood wrote...

 A lot of people on these forums, myself included, feel like Bioware committed character assassination on both Cerberus and TIM. After going to the trouble to set up this complex, morally gray organization in ME2, they throw everything away and decide to make Cerberus a comic book villain for the third installment. Nearly every action Cerberus takes in ME3 is contradictory to their established ideals and decisions, leaving them as little more than bad plot devices with guns. Did anyone look at Cerberus in ME3 and say "Yes! This is totally where I hoped Cerberus would be!" If so, why?

100% agreement.

Yeah, I definitely didn't expect Bioware to go in this direction with Cerberus. In ME3 Cerberus is one giant army. wtf??? I thought ME3 was us fighting reapers?

And every action is Cerberus is against what TIM represents. Especially the Citadel.........I finally got so sick of ME3 and fighting Cerberus I figured the game has gone *****

Bioware either 1. had to rush the game because of EA demands or 2. they truly lost passion in ME3 in development.

I think EA had much to do with how awful ME3 and the development. It's very unlikely this final game would have turned out this way if it was under a much better publishing company

[wright1978]

Didn't like cerberus portrayal in ME3. A major isssue is the absence of Miranda from the Cerberus ar which could have reclaim Cerberus from TIM madness angle. As it stands they basically went for a big dose of cheesy villain and avoided like hell the notion that there might be good people working for a reasonable objective that got twisted by TIM.

[xsdob]

Did people who liked cerberus in mass effect 2 just not read the books, is that what's going on?

Cause cerberus was willing to kill at least a third of the quarian population just to get a single biotic they made suffer and have repressed mental functions and biotic abilities just so they could see what this drug would do as opposed to that drug with no pretesting whatsoever.

They planted charges powerful enough to blow the entire cruiser apart, the debris would have struck other ships in the fleet and led to a massive debris field that a large portion of the fleet would not be able to avoid, including one of the life ships.

Modifié par xsdob, 06 juin 2012 - 07:39 .

[DEATHSCOPE]

xsdob wrote...

Did people who liked cerberus in mass effect 2 just not read the books, is that what's going on?

Cause cerberus was willing to kill at least a third of the quarian population just to get a single biotic they made suffer and have repressed mental functions and biotic abilities just so they could see what this drug would do as opposed to that drug with no pretesting whatsoever.

They planted charges powerful enough to blow the entire cruiser apart, the debris would have struck other ships in the fleet and led to a massive debris field that a large portion of the fleet would not be able to avoid, including one of the life ships.

Yeah, they're ****s alright. But when push comes to shove, who did they send over to the Omega 4 Mass Relay? Shepard and pals.

[dreman9999]

wright1978 wrote...

Didn't like cerberus portrayal in ME3. A major isssue is the absence of Miranda from the Cerberus ar which could have reclaim Cerberus from TIM madness angle. As it stands they basically went for a big dose of cheesy villain and avoided like hell the notion that there might be good people working for a reasonable objective that got twisted by TIM.

.....How did you miss the misson with Jacob in this game?

Of couse bw show this in ME3. Hell, Kaiden even has a conversation about this. The clearly shows that there good people in cerberus...Or more of a point was in cerberus. It's not a cartoony reason if ther is a clear reason why cerberus went the direction they went...AKA proto reaper. Nor even if it's hinted...aka. hey shepard save the base and study more reaper tech and use it as our own. That was always the face of cerberus ...Why is it a surprise it is now?

[dreman9999]

o Ventus wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

DEATHSCOPE wrote...

Sisterofshane wrote...

xsdob wrote...

Lookout1390 wrote...

xsdob wrote...

EnvyTB075 wrote...

Lookout1390 wrote...

Absolutely not.

Like most things in ME3, they were changed to accommodate the new crowd.

They completely butchered TIM's character. Taking everything away from him what made him so appealing/awesome in ME2.

This.

So your just hating on it because mass effect 3 did it, good to know you have your priorities straight and looked up nothing on the illusive man outside of his video game cameo.

Nice to see you disprove my point with no facts or info to back your statement up, and to actually address my argument.

Oh wait, you actually did none of that.

My mistake.

What he did to paul grayson was beyond horrible, and what he allowed to happen with his other agents is unforgviable. The countless lives he's ruined pre-mass effect 3 are truly horrific, and nothing justifyes that.

Nothing goes by him unnoticed, nothing happens in cerberus without his knowledge and approval. The books conveyed that very well, he was a monster and his portrayl in mass effect 3 is the most accurate depiction of his character to all the other mateirals than mass effect 2's.

I don't know.  The other media seems to go both ways.  In Evolution we see his origin, and he doesn't seem unreasonable there.  I figured that he has always known that the Reapers were coming (at least since Evolution), and everything you see afterwards up until ME3 is him doing what is necessary to defeat them 9even if his methods are a little ruthless, they all had purpose).

And then ME2 came out, and they really reinforce that stereotype.  Especially when you begin to see that much of what he does pays out.

What happens between TIM and the Reapers in ME3 is a complete role-reversal.  They really would have done better to keep the Reapers as the big-bad, and have cerberus be morally gray (even if TIM wasn't).

Wait, I thought Cerberus WAS morally gray? Didn't some of their employees got tired of TIM and switched sides? Also, I hate Cerberus. Really, they had all those manpower and technology but didn't use any of it to help me in my fight against the Collectors. WTF TIM.

Did you forget how they got that man power in the first place? Did you not play sactuary?

Sanctuary wasn't an established... establishment... until ME3.


Up until then, they recruited people the American way. With mass amounts of anti Soviet-- I mean, anti-Alliance and pro Capitalist-- I mean, pro human propaganda.

Sanctuary wasn't a place until refugees started to pop up everywhere form the onset of the Reaper invasion.

But the massive forces weren't in hand till ME3. So the point is still relivent.

[xsdob]

They had a general working for them from the alliance who aided them in taking over omega.

The orginizations power's been there this whole time, the only problem was it hide away inside the alliance for a long time. This is established in mass effect ascension.

Modifié par xsdob, 06 juin 2012 - 07:44 .

[o Ventus]

xsdob wrote...

Did people who liked cerberus in mass effect 2 just not read the books, is that what's going on?

Cause cerberus was willing to kill at least a third of the quarian population just to get a single biotic they made suffer and have repressed mental functions and biotic abilities just so they could see what this drug would do as opposed to that drug with no pretesting whatsoever.

They planted charges powerful enough to blow the entire cruiser apart, the debris would have struck other ships in the fleet and led to a massive debris field that a large portion of the fleet would not be able to avoid, including one of the life ships.

... You know those books came out after ME2 (not to mention by a different writer) and thus aren't representative of their state in ME2?

You're also aware that the attack on the flotilla was all Grayson, with TIM's involvement barely going past giving him the OK, right? And the reason for the assault was to rescue Gillian, who was Paul's adopted daughter at the time, and Paul had believed the quarians had forcibly kidnapped her. Not much on Cerberus, especially considering Grayson quit immediately following.

[o Ventus]

dreman9999 wrote...

But the massive forces weren't in hand till ME3. So the point is still relivent.

What do you think I just said?

The person you quoted asked why Cerberus didn't spare any manpower against the Collectors, to which you said something about Sanctuary. I pointed out that Sanctuary didn't exist at that point in time.

[dreman9999]

DEATHSCOPE wrote...

xsdob wrote...

Did people who liked cerberus in mass effect 2 just not read the books, is that what's going on?

Cause cerberus was willing to kill at least a third of the quarian population just to get a single biotic they made suffer and have repressed mental functions and biotic abilities just so they could see what this drug would do as opposed to that drug with no pretesting whatsoever.

They planted charges powerful enough to blow the entire cruiser apart, the debris would have struck other ships in the fleet and led to a massive debris field that a large portion of the fleet would not be able to avoid, including one of the life ships.

Yeah, they're ****s alright. But when push comes to shove, who did they send over to the Omega 4 Mass Relay? Shepard and pals.

That doesn't mean they are the good guys...Just that they know how to manipulate people well.
I mean really, who else gets you enemy to amass the best people from the other alien races you see as enemies together to mass a suicide mission in which you only could lose one of you key people instead of much much more.....
Don't you notice they every crew member is a new recuit and the squad you have is easilly disposable with no lose to cerberus except for Miranda...And she is still seen as disposible?

[o Ventus]

xsdob wrote...

They had a general working for them from the alliance who aided them in taking over omega.

No they don't. The only General in Invasion is Petrovsky, who was never in the Alliance (to our knowledge), whether it be formal or as a cover. When he's introduced in issue #1, he's full-fledged Cerberus.

[dreman9999]

o Ventus wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

But the massive forces weren't in hand till ME3. So the point is still relivent.

What do you think I just said?

The person you quoted asked why Cerberus didn't spare any manpower against the Collectors, to which you said something about Sanctuary. I pointed out that Sanctuary didn't exist at that point in time.

And your still missing the part then they had that manpower only in ME3..
I'll clearify.
That manpower he is taking about was not avaible in ME2 because it was not assebled yet and the mean in which they got it they did not have. They only git that man power because of sacturay....Since ME2 did not have sactuary, then it means they cold not have that manpower yet...

[Icinix]

No.

Cerberus is like a totally different group in each of the three games.

They're totally different and make no sense.

They went from a covert rogue black ops group, to a morally grey organisation that had a fair bit of backing from good people, to a corrupted evil powerful empire with fleets and armies and stuff.

The pooh did not make sense.

[dreman9999]

DEATHSCOPE wrote...


I'm pretty sure that they had at least some firepower even before Sanctuary.

Not in that ways....No massive armies or fleets of military ships and fight...They were pure black ops.

[o Ventus]

dreman9999 wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

But the massive forces weren't in hand till ME3. So the point is still relivent.

What do you think I just said?

The person you quoted asked why Cerberus didn't spare any manpower against the Collectors, to which you said something about Sanctuary. I pointed out that Sanctuary didn't exist at that point in time.

And your still missing the part then they had that manpower only in ME3..
I'll clearify.
That manpower he is taking about was not avaible in ME2 because it was not assebled yet and the mean in which they got it they did not have. They only git that man power because of sacturay....Since ME2 did not have sactuary, then it means they cold not have that manpower yet...

Not that Sanctuary was even necessary, Kai Leng could have gone with Shepard and co. and the fight would have been much shorter.

[DEATHSCOPE]

dreman9999 wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

DEATHSCOPE wrote...

Sisterofshane wrote...

xsdob wrote...

Lookout1390 wrote...

xsdob wrote...

EnvyTB075 wrote...

Lookout1390 wrote...

Absolutely not.

Like most things in ME3, they were changed to accommodate the new crowd.

They completely butchered TIM's character. Taking everything away from him what made him so appealing/awesome in ME2.

This.

So your just hating on it because mass effect 3 did it, good to know you have your priorities straight and looked up nothing on the illusive man outside of his video game cameo.

Nice to see you disprove my point with no facts or info to back your statement up, and to actually address my argument.

Oh wait, you actually did none of that.

My mistake.

What he did to paul grayson was beyond horrible, and what he allowed to happen with his other agents is unforgviable. The countless lives he's ruined pre-mass effect 3 are truly horrific, and nothing justifyes that.

Nothing goes by him unnoticed, nothing happens in cerberus without his knowledge and approval. The books conveyed that very well, he was a monster and his portrayl in mass effect 3 is the most accurate depiction of his character to all the other mateirals than mass effect 2's.

I don't know.  The other media seems to go both ways.  In Evolution we see his origin, and he doesn't seem unreasonable there.  I figured that he has always known that the Reapers were coming (at least since Evolution), and everything you see afterwards up until ME3 is him doing what is necessary to defeat them 9even if his methods are a little ruthless, they all had purpose).

And then ME2 came out, and they really reinforce that stereotype.  Especially when you begin to see that much of what he does pays out.

What happens between TIM and the Reapers in ME3 is a complete role-reversal.  They really would have done better to keep the Reapers as the big-bad, and have cerberus be morally gray (even if TIM wasn't).

Wait, I thought Cerberus WAS morally gray? Didn't some of their employees got tired of TIM and switched sides? Also, I hate Cerberus. Really, they had all those manpower and technology but didn't use any of it to help me in my fight against the Collectors. WTF TIM.

Did you forget how they got that man power in the first place? Did you not play sactuary?

Sanctuary wasn't an established... establishment... until ME3.


Up until then, they recruited people the American way. With mass amounts of anti Soviet-- I mean, anti-Alliance and pro Capitalist-- I mean, pro human propaganda.

Sanctuary wasn't a place until refugees started to pop up everywhere form the onset of the Reaper invasion.

But the massive forces weren't in hand till ME3. So the point is still relivent.

Still, with the amount of resources that they had, they could have helped in ME2. BioWare should have just debut them there and then, and cemented just who they were and their intentions. The way that they introduced Cerberus in ME3 is just bad. From a misunderstood organization to full on bad guys. To me, it feels like Cerberus and TIM have replaced the Reapers and Harbinger as the main villains of the game.

[o Ventus]

Icinix wrote...

No.

Cerberus is like a totally different group in each of the three games.

They're totally different and make no sense.

They went from a covert rogue black ops group, to a morally grey organisation that had a fair bit of backing from good people, to a corrupted evil powerful empire with fleets and armies and stuff.

The pooh did not make sense.

I blame bad plot contrivances.


Though I think it's safe to assume that their status as a former Black Op was successfully retconned in Evolution.

[dreman9999]

o Ventus wrote...

xsdob wrote...

Did people who liked cerberus in mass effect 2 just not read the books, is that what's going on?

Cause cerberus was willing to kill at least a third of the quarian population just to get a single biotic they made suffer and have repressed mental functions and biotic abilities just so they could see what this drug would do as opposed to that drug with no pretesting whatsoever.

They planted charges powerful enough to blow the entire cruiser apart, the debris would have struck other ships in the fleet and led to a massive debris field that a large portion of the fleet would not be able to avoid, including one of the life ships.

... You know those books came out after ME2 (not to mention by a different writer) and thus aren't representative of their state in ME2?

You're also aware that the attack on the flotilla was all Grayson, with TIM's involvement barely going past giving him the OK, right? And the reason for the assault was to rescue Gillian, who was Paul's adopted daughter at the time, and Paul had believed the quarians had forcibly kidnapped her. Not much on Cerberus, especially considering Grayson quit immediately following.

We didn't read the same book then....
Grayson did not beleive the quarian kidnapped his daughter.
TIM oked the mission but was sceptical of letting Grayson lead it.....And he did ok the bomb.
And Grayson quit because going back means death being that he gave his daughter to the quarians to keep her safe from TIM and himself.

Modifié par dreman9999, 06 juin 2012 - 07:55 .