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[LoganofET]

Helios969 wrote...


And it felt pretty good to bit by bit dismantle the organization throughout the story.  It would have been better had I caught up with TIM on his base (cowering in a broom closet) and shot him in the face right there.  Instead I got that goofy Kai Leng, (he's the undersized junior high kid that has a brown belt in Tae Kwon Do that thinks he's totally bad azz that the other kids laugh at.)  What a complete tool.

Part of me wishes I had just finished off TIM in the base, but then we would miss out on one of the best lines in the game.

"Shepard, Your in my seat"

[Patchwork]

Cerberus projects had a tendency to backfire so the fact that one did so spectacularly didn't surprise me but I hated how they were the default villain. BW tossed aside any motivation Cerberus had, they were used as Shepard's default enemy whether their presence made sense or not.

Surkesh could have had indoctrinated asari commandos sent to prevent the krogan joining the war. Salarian and turian forces could have joined them as we tried to cure the genophage.

The Citadel should have been about repelling Reaper forces while Udina staged a daring rescue of the other council members. Via cut scene we learn he did with Cerberus' help and it was a set up.

As annoying as I found Kai Lang and his plot armour of invincibility Cerberus stealing the Catalyst data was IC.

Another thing that annoyed me was Vega saying Cerberus were working for the Collectors and not being able to follow up on that.

[Gogzilla]

winterbrood wrote...

 A lot of people on these forums, myself included, feel like Bioware committed character assassination on both Cerberus and TIM. After going to the trouble to set up this complex, morally gray organization in ME2, they throw everything away and decide to make Cerberus a comic book villain for the third installment. Nearly every action Cerberus takes in ME3 is contradictory to their established ideals and decisions, leaving them as little more than bad plot devices with guns. Did anyone look at Cerberus in ME3 and say "Yes! This is totally where I hoped Cerberus would be!" If so, why?

This is not that difficult to understand

TIM was indoctrinated, the man was not himself and his decision not entirely his own.
They used Cerberus and TIM against humanity and there was nothing TIM could have done, his intellect was as a result of indoctrination effect from years ago.

Now i don't like killing TIM and then being presented with control as much as the next guys but its not really a problem.

If you liked Cerberus and Liked TIM then its just a tragedy really that their fates are the way they are. TIM and Saren both had a far to unhealthy an intrest in reaper artifacts and that sealed both their fates even though they both had the best of intention.

Really my only problem is Kai lengs non charecter, the paragon lines with TIM summed up my feelings relatively well.
If i am brutally honest that final conversation could have been a lot better it felt a bit forced in its outcome and introduction.
The problem is you know TIM is indoctrinated there is not question of it any point. All the lines assume you know as well, its not a matter of discovery or a realisation through conversation.

TIMs indoctrination should have been more subtle and his true fate left up to discovery.

[nos_astra]

grey_wind wrote...

Yes, clearly bringing the hero back to life and giving him a ship with a crew and unlimited resources to stop the deaths of millions of people is a hallmark of the classic antagonist.
Wait....

The setup in ME2 is problematic at best.

I'm not sure there are even millions of human colonists in the Terminus systems. Colonies tend to be rather small, especially those in areas that are completely unprotected by the authorities, like the Terminus systems. It's really odd that Cerberus would be overly concerned about these colonists. I assume they had a much less altruistic goal in mind (that of course would benefit humanity in the long run, so not entirely un-altruistic).

The resurrection plotline is poorly executed and goes nowhere. The intro claims that they need Shepard for being an icon. The moment Shepard is back they don't use this at all but hand them a gun and send them off to shoot at things.
And inspire loyalty in 12 random badasses. That's it. At the same time they manage to further alienate the Alliance and the Council.

So obviously Cerberus sucks at PR? They are also dumb enough to believe they can defeat the Reapers on their own. And Shepard buys this. <_<

The evil part got a bit blurred, I suppose, but at least they've never lost the stupid part.

Modifié par klarabella, 06 juin 2012 - 05:33 .

[Montana]

Nefla wrote...

No, a good villian is one you hate but also identify/sympathize with. I think Loghain was a great villian in DA:O. Cerberus in ME3 is one dimentional and they no longer seem to have a goal beyond "thwart Shepard at every turn."

I think this is the exact problem with how Cerberus is portrayed in ME3.

I would have preferred Cerberus being an uneasy ally who helps you sometimes and works against you sometimes.

You could still have the Cerberus coup at the Citadel after which point they would be independet enemies.

It got pretty tiresome meeting them over and over again wherever you went.

[Typhoniel]

I was a big fan of Cerberus and I wanted to have them as my allies, to work together with the illusive man to achieve victory against the reapers. Till the end where you raid the cerberus base I hoped to have a chance to convince TIM to help me. I don't like what Bioware did to my favourite faction.

[grey_wind]

klarabella wrote...

grey_wind wrote...

Yes, clearly bringing the hero back to life and giving him a ship with a crew and unlimited resources to stop the deaths of millions of people is a hallmark of the classic antagonist.
Wait....

The setup in ME2 is problematic at best.

I'm not sure there are even millions of human colonists in the Terminus systems. Colonies tend to be rather small, especially those in areas that are completely unprotected by the authorities, like the Terminus systems. It's really odd that Cerberus would be overly concerned about these colonists. I assume they had a much less altruistic goal in mind (that of course would benefit humanity in the long run, so not entirely un-altruistic).

The resurrection plotline is poorly executed and goes nowhere. The intro claims that they need Shepard for being an icon. The moment Shepard is back they don't use this at all but hand them a gun and send them off to shoot at things.
And inspire loyalty in 12 random badasses. That's it. At the same time they manage to further alienate the Alliance and the Council.

So obviously Cerberus sucks at PR? They are also dumb enough to believe they can defeat the Reapers on their own. And Shepard buys this. <_<

The evil part got a bit blurred, I suppose, but at least they've never lost the stupid part.

Horizon itself has 6 million people according to the planet description. And if you read TIM's reports (that Shepard never gets a chance to see) at the mission end screen, TIM funnels a lot of resources to help the colonists rebuild and help the recovery of the crew stranded on Aeia. ME2 Cerberus is quite altruistic, though it's not unreasonable to assume that they had an un-altruistic long term goal in mind.
Shepard as an icon is meant more for ME3, when the Reapers invade. Until then,since he's all they have (according to ME2), they use him to deal with the present threat. And if Shep can actually survive the Suicide Mission, that just makes him even more legendary in the galaxy's mind. It's also not TIM's fault that in the 2 years they spent rebuilding Shepard, the Alliance and Council decided it was best to bury ther heads in the sand.
So if Cerberus was actually kept consistent between ME2 and 3, then the importance of resurrecting Shepard would have actually played out, and Cerberus could have easily used the situation to increase their power by showing to the galaxy how they'd have been screwed without them. The problem with ME3 is that Cerberus does such an idiotic 180 that everything they did in ME2 leads nowhere.

Modifié par grey_wind, 06 juin 2012 - 08:47 .

[AlexPorto111]

ZackG312 wrote...

arial wrote...

people act like Cerberus being evil is a new thing.

Cerberus was pure evil from the get-go. cloneing Rachni, enslaving Thorian creepers, killed Admiral Kahoku, what they did to Jack, Project Overlord.

the belief that they had any good in them was just TIM manipulating you. Cerberus was, is, and always will be an evil orginization

This

People tend to forget this stuff

Yes,pretty much this.

[dublin omega 223]

Typhoniel wrote...

I was a big fan of Cerberus and I wanted to have them as my allies, to work together with the illusive man to achieve victory against the reapers. Till the end where you raid the cerberus base I hoped to have a chance to convince TIM to help me. I don't like what Bioware did to my favourite faction.

I agree with you 100%. Cerberus should have been allies in ME3 or maybe present a thrid option for the game in regards to your choices, sadly that didn't happen.

[JG The Gamer]

I didn't like the direction, but I guess that's what happens when one commences experimenting with Reaper tech. Indoctrination can make you think and believe whatever the Reapers want you to believe.

The Prothean VI on Thessia said as much. People become divided on how to fight the Reapers. Division makes it easier for the Reapers to conquer the galaxy. What's to say the Reapers weren't already setting the groundwork for Cerberus to be the 'control' faction prior to the invasion. Since they lost their element of surprise via the Citadel, they needed to make sure what pieces they did have were in place.

Heck even I felt played by the Illusive Man. Initially I thought of him as ruthless and would aim to win at all costs. I sympathized slightly thinking that the goals of Cerberus and the Alliance were the same just with different methods. But as I raided Cerberus HQ I saw how badly I was played with everything being set up as such so I never saw the darker side of Cerberus. There were hints of it (Project Overlord, Grayson) but it was all deliberately kept from your view.

And in the words of Commander Bailey, when Cerberus began studying indoctrination, the shell was finally cracked off the nut.

[malakim2099]

Helios969 wrote...

malakim2099 wrote...

My only problem with Cerberus in the third game is just how many freaking resources they had. Seriously, they now have multiple space stations, their own FLEET, and an unlimited supply of mooks and equipment.

Really guys? Why did you need Shepard in the second game then?!?

Well, despite those enormous resources, they were nothing more than a stopgap between Shep and TIM;)  Like all such stories the enemy is unstoppable by the galaxy, but get mowed down by the hero.  SW prequels the clone troopers were a totally bad azz fighting force, but by A New Hope they were all cross-eyed and couldn't shoot straight.

I figured that was just cellular degeneration from the cloning process.

But I don't mind them being definite antagonists... but they shouldn't have overshadowed the, um, actual REAPERS? And it really seems like they did. If nothing else, you should have had the option to just hit the Illusive Man and then take over the organization.

Yeah, Kai Leng? Mind if I have some of that tasty cereal, Kai? 

Modifié par malakim2099, 06 juin 2012 - 09:30 .

[LinksOcarina]

Tony77A wrote...

Nefla wrote...

No, a good villian is one you hate but also identify/sympathize with. I think Loghain was a great villian in DA:O. Cerberus in ME3 is one dimentional and they no longer seem to have a goal beyond "thwart Shepard at every turn."

I think this is the exact problem with how Cerberus is portrayed in ME3.

I would have preferred Cerberus being an uneasy ally who helps you sometimes and works against you sometimes.

You could still have the Cerberus coup at the Citadel after which point they would be independet enemies.

It got pretty tiresome meeting them over and over again wherever you went.

I disagree in this sense though that Cerberus was twisted from their goals from Mass Effect 1 and 2, and the fall from grace made them a dangerous adversary because they are tearing apart efforts to fight a real threat. 

And let's be honest, the enemies in Mass Effect were always fairly one-dimensonal because of the reapers and their influence onthem. Of course you got some exceptions, but overall it was always a story of good vs evil at its core. This can still be effective as a sympathetic villian or a total psyhopath, and I feel the Cerberus arc in the three games were well executed because we see this mysterious group fall prey to what they hate the most; promotion of humanity twisted by indoctrination. 

[RiouHotaru]

Did ANYONE watch the vids on Cronos Station?

The only reason TIM appeared even remotely sympathetic in ME2 was because he purposefully recruited people Shepard would be sympathetic to!

IT WAS ALL A SETUP

[nos_astra]

grey_wind wrote...
Horizon itself has 6 million people according to the planet description. And if you read TIM's reports (that Shepard never gets a chance to see) at the mission end screen, TIM funnels a lot of resources to help the colonists rebuild and help the recovery of the crew stranded on Aeia. ME2 Cerberus is quite altruistic, though it's not unreasonable to assume that they had an un-altruistic long term goal in mind.

According to the wiki it's 654,930 in 2185. We don't know how many colonists were abducted, though. I'd say it's thousands, seeing as there is only one freaking Collector ship. Still a far cry from millions.

I know, saving millions of colonists has quite the ring to it but it doesn't change the fact that if you're trying to save colonists from the Collectors you are obviously not looking at the big picture. The Reapers are coming! We need unity, a huge fleet, the best weapons, we need everyone prepared and aware, everyone in the galaxy.

Instead we are forced to solve a problem that should have taken care of itself. Colonists won't sit and wait to be abducted, they'd flee eventually. The Alliance would have been forced to act anyway.

grey_wind wrote...
Shepard as an icon is meant more for ME3, when the Reapers invade. Until then,since he's all they have (according to ME2), they use him to deal with the present threat. And if Shep can actually survive the Suicide Mission, that just makes him even more legendary in the galaxy's mind. It's also not TIM's fault that in the 2 years they spent rebuilding Shepard, the Alliance and Council decided it was best to bury ther heads in the sand.

You don't funnel endless ressources into bringing someone back from the dead and then throw them into a suicide mission, which - by virtue of tbeing a suicide mission - they can't be expected to survive.

Also, why would anyone throw their very expensive, shiny new toy into combat at all? Last time I checked Shepard was still not immortal. What is this ... I don't even.

grey_wind wrote...
So if Cerberus was actually kept consistent between ME2 and 3, then the importance of resurrecting Shepard would have actually played out, and Cerberus could have easily used the situation to increase their power by showing to the galaxy how they'd have been screwed without them. The problem with ME3 is that Cerberus does such an idiotic 180 that everything they did in ME2 leads nowhere.

Um, no. I don't see it. From where I stand Cerberus' achievements where mostly an excercise in futility. There is no way keeping them consistent should have accomplished anything. They were pretty consistently retarded through all three games. In ME2 it was just less obvious.

Modifié par klarabella, 06 juin 2012 - 09:52 .

[Fingertrip]

Cerberus was never good. Did people ever play Mass Effect 1?

[jsar72]

I didn't have a problem with the way Cerberus was portrayed in ME3. I never saw them as good or even in the grey. For me they were always for the most part an evil faction. The Illusive Man was an egomaniac bent on the supremacy of the human race and the subjugation of the alien races.

The only thing I didn't like about Cerberus was they played too much of a role in ME3. Ran into them way too much and would have been better bumping heads with them a few times at key points of the game with a payoff of a confrontation between Sheppard and TIM.

I didn't have a problem with the indoctrination of TIM or Cerberus. To me it pushed home the whole indoctrination of the races and using them as weapons against their own people. To me, it fit into the whole brutality of the war. Knowing that alot of those indoctrinated Cerberus soldiers were just average people who were tricked into the promise of a safe haven from the Reapers.

lol, Besides it helped to suspend my disbelief on how damn easy it was to wipe the floor with them at every damn turn of the game.

[corkey sweet]

winterbrood wrote...

 A lot of people on these forums, myself included, feel like Bioware committed character assassination on both Cerberus and TIM. After going to the trouble to set up this complex, morally gray organization in ME2, they throw everything away and decide to make Cerberus a comic book villain for the third installment. Nearly every action Cerberus takes in ME3 is contradictory to their established ideals and decisions, leaving them as little more than bad plot devices with guns. Did anyone look at Cerberus in ME3 and say "Yes! This is totally where I hoped Cerberus would be!" If so, why?

i was also curious how (in 6 months time) cyberus became a galactic army. they where just a small faction in ME1 and ME2.  ME3 takes place like 6 months after ME2. so how did they manage to grow by billions of soldiers in 6 months

Modifié par corkey sweet, 06 juin 2012 - 11:32 .

[xsdob]

corkey sweet wrote...

winterbrood wrote...

 A lot of people on these forums, myself included, feel like Bioware committed character assassination on both Cerberus and TIM. After going to the trouble to set up this complex, morally gray organization in ME2, they throw everything away and decide to make Cerberus a comic book villain for the third installment. Nearly every action Cerberus takes in ME3 is contradictory to their established ideals and decisions, leaving them as little more than bad plot devices with guns. Did anyone look at Cerberus in ME3 and say "Yes! This is totally where I hoped Cerberus would be!" If so, why?

i was also curious how (in 6months time) cyberus became a galactic army. they where just a small faction in ME1 and ME2.  ME3 takes place like 6 months after ME2

The books explained it well, they were an orginization with agents working for the illusive man in every major human industry and orginization, espically the alliance.

My guess, every agent working for cerberus + sanctuary makes an incredibly large fighting force.

[corkey sweet]

xsdob wrote...

corkey sweet wrote...

winterbrood wrote...

 A lot of people on these forums, myself included, feel like Bioware committed character assassination on both Cerberus and TIM. After going to the trouble to set up this complex, morally gray organization in ME2, they throw everything away and decide to make Cerberus a comic book villain for the third installment. Nearly every action Cerberus takes in ME3 is contradictory to their established ideals and decisions, leaving them as little more than bad plot devices with guns. Did anyone look at Cerberus in ME3 and say "Yes! This is totally where I hoped Cerberus would be!" If so, why?

i was also curious how (in 6months time) cyberus became a galactic army. they where just a small faction in ME1 and ME2.  ME3 takes place like 6 months after ME2

The books explained it well, they were an orginization with agents working for the illusive man in every major human industry and orginization, espically the alliance.

My guess, every agent working for cerberus + sanctuary makes an incredibly large fighting force.

honestly, I think Bioware was just hoping fans wouldn't question it.

[Armass81]

I think Cerberus got too big a spot in the franchise, like soon almost everything was revolving around them, dont know why. Did Walters favor them or something? Every bad thing in the galaxy pretty much got linked to Cerberus and it got to the point of ridiculousness, even in the novels and comics, almost all of them have Cerberus in them. I would have preferred them to stay in the background mostly and give the reapers more room. And have some intrique with them. So much wasted potential.

Modifié par Armass81, 06 juin 2012 - 11:38 .

[Aaleel]

After playing ME1 and the side missions associated with Cerberus, I don't see how anyone thought they were anything other than what they showed in ME3.

Even what you found out about them in ME2. I wanted to walk out and tell TIM where he could go after the Collector Ship mission.

To quote Dennis Green " They are who we thought they were."

Modifié par Aaleel, 06 juin 2012 - 11:41 .

[xMellowhype]

 No they got lazy with it IMO.

[hoodaticus]

Jade8aby88 wrote...

arial wrote...

people act like Cerberus being evil is a new thing.

Cerberus was pure evil from the get-go. cloneing Rachni, enslaving Thorian creepers, killed Admiral Kahoku, what they did to Jack, Project Overlord.

the belief that they had any good in them was just TIM manipulating you. Cerberus was, is, and always will be an evil orginization

If they were so evil they wouldn't have bought back Shepard.

Unless they thought Shepard was the only way to achieve their goals.  Which, TIM told you in the game.  Derp.

[hoodaticus]

RiouHotaru wrote...

Did ANYONE watch the vids on Cronos Station?

The only reason TIM appeared even remotely sympathetic in ME2 was because he purposefully recruited people Shepard would be sympathetic to!

IT WAS ALL A SETUP

Cerberus's evil was obvious since ME1, and slightly more obvious than IT.  The people who thought Cerberus wasn't evil probably also believe every word that drips from the maw of the Starchild.

[ananna21]

No it was blatant in 3 where I half expected a scene of soldier kicking a puppy.