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[TheButterflyEffect]

Throughout the story, didn't anyone else feel like Anders was the biggest hypocrite ever?!

Seriously, he's all against blood magic and detests demons and crap, and constantly berates Merril (and others) for doing those things, when he himself has bound his soul to a demon and does some stuff that is just as bad as blood magic and involves mass killing. Like being a terrorist and BLOWING UP THE CHURCH!!!!!

Jerk. I miss the Awakening Anders. Why did they need to change him so much, he was already perfect. 

Modifié par TheButterflyEffect, 05 juin 2012 - 09:52 .

[Nimpe]

Because he's an abomination

[Wulfram]

To be fair, I think it's sometimes as much about wanting Merrill to learn from his mistakes as it is hypocrisy.

Anders: It's not a good feeling, you know.
Merrill: What?
Anders: Being an abomination. I just got a taste of your future.

[darthnick427]

Well....In all honesty Anders merged with a spirit that became a demon because of Anders' hate towards Templars.....so technically he didn't intentionally merge himself with a demon he unintentionally created one....

[HiroVoid]

He's also alright with selling Fenris back into slavery. Though I don't see why people liked Awakening Anders so much. He seemed like a jacka** back then to me.

[AngryFrozenWater]

Well, Wynne is much the same in DA:O. Give her blood magic and she still rambles on.

[robertthebard]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Well, Wynne is much the same in DA:O. Give her blood magic and she still rambles on.

The one that really surprised me was Morrigan in the Fade during Redcliffe.  For all the speeches about power and survival having meaning, she wouldn't even consider talking to the Desire Demon.

I don't know that I'd classify Anders as a hypocrit either.  Obssessive and compulsive, yeah.  Single minded?  Yeah.  Utterly manipulative, yeah, but not a hypocrit.  No matter how misguided his means, he was focused on the goal.  Which of course makes it even easier for me to Murder Knife him, which I always take some small pleasure from.

[Lee80]

I love Anders in both games. I think they foreshadowed the union of the two characters fairly well in Awakening, and the character development seems pretty realistic to me. He couldn't be the same in both games, he's barely even the same person..more just the same body.

As for the hypocrisy, I can't disagree there. He is extremely harsh on Merril for things that he himself has already done (or worse). I still am a bit lost as to why he hates blood mages so much though, I guess that's Justice's baggage maybe. Anders in awaking seemed to laugh off the fact that I made him a blood mage. I guess that makes sense giving Justice's conflict with the Baroness in Awakening.

[sylvanaerie]

If I recall right, Anders' codex in Awakenings says he dislikes blood magic, and the fact that he never took it up is one reason they kept bringing him back to the circle instead of just shoving a blade of mercy into his chest whenever he pulled one of his escape attempts. So he's always hated it.

But hypocrit, yea, I agree, merging with Justice turned him into a self righteous, murdering bastard who can't seem to discern the innocent from the enemy (Ella), who constantly berates Merrill for her blood magic and how she'll become an abomination, when he himself is an abomination (it may be noted at no point in the game does Merrill suffer this fate), who whines about how bad mages have it (calling them slaves) then GLOATS (+5 approval) if you turn Fenris over to ACTUAL slavery under Denarius (At least mages are protected by laws, even if some of the **** templars don't acknowlege those laws). If you don't romance him but choose Merrill or Fenris he calls you out on it saying Fenris is like a wild beast and Merrill will always choose her demon over you. Yet, he's out of control with Justice acting like a wild beast and always chooses his 'mission' over Hawke, regardless.

At least you can convince Rivaled Merrill to smash that mirror and you end up killing her demon.

Modifié par sylvanaerie, 05 juin 2012 - 09:44 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

robertthebard wrote...

The one that really surprised me was Morrigan in the Fade during Redcliffe.  For all the speeches about power and survival having meaning, she wouldn't even consider talking to the Desire Demon.

It's because she knows better than to take any risk of becoming an abomination. Like you said, she does like surviving: abominations have a difficult time pulling that off, especially with Alistair around. She could kill him (possibly) but she knows that Grey Wardens are essential, and thus wouldn't risk it even if beating him was a sure thing. (Since the party's likely to side with Alistair over her, it really isn't.) And as Anders shows, the human half of an abomination is about as powerless as it is possible to be.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 05 juin 2012 - 11:01 .

[Vit246]

What hypocrisy? First, explosive material is very different from blood magic and Anders never uses that. Second, Anders invited in a benign spirit, not a total demon. But his own anger and psychological issues kinda twisted the spirit up.

Second, do not equate the Chantry with a real-world small-time local church. And its not terrorism to attack a guilty non-civilian faction. This whole other issue is more bigger and complicated but I really don't want to argue it again.

Modifié par Vit246, 05 juin 2012 - 11:59 .

[LadyJaneGrey]

@AFW. Yup. That's why I specced her as a blood mage every time.

[LolaLei]

sylvanaerie wrote...

If I recall right, Anders' codex in Awakenings says he dislikes blood magic, and the fact that he never took it up is one reason they kept bringing him back to the circle instead of just shoving a blade of mercy into his chest whenever he pulled one of his escape attempts. So he's always hated it.

But you can make him a blood mage in Awakenings and he makes a joke about it. I guess they retconned that option in DA2 though.

Modifié par LolaLei, 06 juin 2012 - 12:15 .

[jbrand2002uk]

Yeah he comes across as somewhat of a hypocrite,however no more so than the chantry who claims magic is a curse from the maker and that blood magic is evil and yet they keep their templars in line by making them take lyrium which is magic in its raw form and then theres the phylacteries they use to track escaped mages and guess what its blood magic.

It Ironically mirrors the Christian and Catholics faiths hypocritical attitudes when they claim "God created man in his own image" but apparently being gay or lesbian is a sin

[M0RD3CA1 VII]

TheButterflyEffect wrote...

Throughout the story, didn't anyone else feel like Anders was the biggest hypocrite ever?!

Seriously, he's all against blood magic and detests demons and crap, and constantly berates Merril (and others) for doing those things, when he himself has bound his soul to a demon and does some stuff that is just as bad as blood magic and involves mass killing. Like being a terrorist and BLOWING UP THE CHURCH!!!!!

Jerk. I miss the Awakening Anders. Why did they need to change him so much, he was already perfect. 

Erm, Justice is not a Demon, he is just that ... a Spirit of Justice. Basically, he is the exact opposite of a Demon.

If Anders is an abomination, so is Wynne ...

Now he IS a mass murdering psychopath ...

I also prefer the Anders from Awakening. However when you throw Anders and Justice into a blender, you apparently get Vengeance ...

[Sith Grey Warden]

M0RD3CA1 VII wrote...


Erm, Justice is not a Demon, he is just that ... a Spirit of Justice. Basically, he is the exact opposite of a Demon.

Justice WAS a spirit. When he merged with Anders, he BECAME a demon (Vengeance). Thereby, Anders is indeed the human host of a demon, which by definition makes him an abomination. Furthermore, look at when "Justice" gains complete control of Anders. After killing the Templars (arguably self-defence) he kills a defenseless mage for (rightly) being wary of him and believing him to a be a demon. If that accusation would otherwise be false, "Justice" renders the distinction meaningless when he kills her, an action no better than what a demon would do.

The only distinction between Anders and most abominations is that Anders isn't always completely under the control of Vengeance.

[jbrand2002uk]

actually Hawke can stop him from killing the girl(Ella) its the star option

[Cantina]

TheButterflyEffect wrote...

Throughout the story, didn't anyone else feel like Anders was the biggest hypocrite ever?!

Seriously, he's all against blood magic and detests demons and crap, and constantly berates Merril (and others) for doing those things, when he himself has bound his soul to a demon and does some stuff that is just as bad as blood magic and involves mass killing. Like being a terrorist and BLOWING UP THE CHURCH!!!!!

Jerk. I miss the Awakening Anders. Why did they need to change him so much, he was already perfect. 

He is not bound to a soul of a demon. He has a spirit inside, there is a difference.

Furthermore I think people over look the fact The Chantry is more of a military building then a church.

Anders destroyed the Chantry for good reasons, actually it was quite smart on his part, but he did feel bad about.

I don't think Anders is a hypocrite on purpose, he is struggling to maintain his humanity. And lets face it Dragon Age 2 was not entirely written well.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Cantina wrote...

He is not bound to a soul of a demon. He has a spirit inside, there is a difference.

Not much of a difference. The writers' description is that the Spirit/Demon distinction is only a description of how malevolent the Spirit is, technically they all qualify as "spirits". Justice/Vengeance blew up a church. That's reasonably malevolent.

Furthermore I think people over look the fact The Chantry is more of a military building then a church.

This was supposed to take place in a medieval setting. There was less of a difference during that era. (Ever heard of the Papal States? The Pope was also a king. Several times over.) Besides which, the Chantry did function as a church as well: the Grand Cleric really was a selfless religious leader. (From what I understand: I don't actually have DA2.)

Anders destroyed the Chantry for good reasons, actually it was quite smart on his part, but he did feel bad about.

Let's see if I've read up on the plot of the game alright... Anders meant the blast to shatter any hope of mages and templars coming to terms, correctly supposing that Merideth would completely lose her mind when she saw this and attempt an unjustified Annulment, possibly killing every single mage who followed the law and reported in to be enslaved? The important bit being that at least the other Circles would decide to rise up when they saw this? I'm not arguing that "hypocrite" is the correct term for that, (indeed if his only priorities are that the Templars pay for their actions and that future Circles are self-ruling, then the actions are consistent with said views and goals) but I don't think "smart" works either. Or "sane", for that matter. Or "just," especially considering the very strong possibility that there were people in that building when it blew who weren't part of the chantry. (It is when Anders considers his actions to be justice that he becomes a hypocrite.)

I don't think Anders is a hypocrite on purpose, he is struggling to maintain his humanity. And lets face it Dragon Age 2 was not entirely written well.

No argument to either of the above two points.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 06 juin 2012 - 05:56 .

[Lazy Jer]

I will speak up for Anders in that he didn't invite a demon into his mind, it was a spirit of Justice, one that he had adventured with, knew and trusted.  It just so happened that his own emotions sort of corrupted the spirit in question.  On that front you may be able to accuse him of being recklace, but not necessarily hypocritical.

His blowing of of the Chantry, however, is unforgivable.  Much as people like to claim that it was a military target, it wasn't.  The Templars are an armed faction of the Chantry, and the Grand Cleric does have some pull with them, but the building that Anders blew up was a church.  It housed priests and was a place of worship for Andrasteans.  No military decisions were made there, it didn't house any troops or weaponry of any kind and was soully used as a place of spiritual worship.

The only reason it was blown up was because it was an authority that could have solved the growing problem between the Circle and the Templar Order without further bloodshed.  No matter what anyone else's feeling about the Chantry are Anders only blew it up for that reason.  It was a stategic move meant to start the war Anders wanted.  I'm not sure if that's hypocrasy in a technical sense seeing as how I haven't read a copy of Anders' Manifesto.  But he did lie to Hawke about it.

[DeathScepter]

Justice has great sway over Anders regardless of Anders' state at the time.

So Effectively Anders was brainwashed by Justice's harsh nature. The Nature of spirits in hosts that the Spirit/Demon will overwhelm the host. some of the traits of the host will show thru.

Ander's hatred of oppression of Mages and love of Cats was two of natural traits of Anders.

Majority of Blood Mages are violent. Only two decent Blood Mages are Merril and Jowan. And Rest of them are enemy NPCs.

[Ryzaki]

HiroVoid wrote...

He's also alright with selling Fenris back into slavery. Though I don't see why people liked Awakening Anders so much. He seemed like a jacka** back then to me.

This.

I replayed Awakening and the only reason I didn't throw him at the templars was because I needed a healbot and as annoying as he was Velanna was worse.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 06 juin 2012 - 06:19 .