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[Sarcastic Tasha]

Anders' view on spirits and demons is too black and white as Merrill points out:

Merrill: Are you all right?
Anders: I nearly killed an innocent girl. How could I be all right?
Merrill: I'm sorry.
Anders: You're sorry? For me? This could be you! You could be the next monster threatening helpless girls!
Merrill: Anders... There's no such thing as a good spirit. There never was.
Merrill: All spirits are dangerous. I understood that. I'm sorry that you didn't.

[Lazy Jer]

DeathScepter wrote...

...Ander's hatred of oppression of Mages and love of Cats was two of natural traits of Anders...

Are you saying that Justice could just as easily have made Anders the militant branch of People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals?

[Nimpe]

Wow. I never knew so many people hated Anders. I was only half joking because I recognized the OP as the Alistair-hater.

[Lazy Jer]

Nimpe wrote...

Wow. I never knew so many people hated Anders. I was only half joking because I recognized the OP as the Alistair-hater.

Anders lost most of his fans when he lost his cat.  No one would have knifed him if he'd been wielding Ser Pounce-A-Lot instead of that staff.

[AppealToReason]

Anders "Free mages aren't dangerous!"


Destroys the chantry.

[Blacklash93]

Lazy Jer wrote...
Are you saying that Justice could just as easily have made Anders the militant branch of People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals?

He'd fit right in with that crowd.

Wow. I never knew so many people hated Anders.

A lot of people hated him in DA2 but liked him in Awakening. Some people hated him in Awakening but liked him in DA2. I belong to the latter group.

Seriously, he was nothing more than an Alistair-replacement who happened to be a mage in Awakening. The character was Alistiar, sprinked with a little bit of Zevran, and all wrapped up in as an annoying mage with a conflict we saw many times in Origins' main campaign. There was nothing original about him at all.

In DA2 he had his own distinct character after his merge with Justice. He was a ruthless and insensitive zealot and a hypocrite, but he brought something new to the table. That's what made him interesting for me.

[Gervaise]

I have been replaying using Anders a lot more than for most play throughs as I went off him after he blew the Chantry. The thing I find most annoying is that he criticises Merrill for using blood magic, approves when Hawke does the same and says that it makes him angry when mages resort to blood magic and then for every other instance of blood magic we encounter, he excuses it on the grounds that the "mages are desperate". He even does this with Orsino. However, this may not be hypocrisy so much as the fact that he is fixated on total mage freedom and so is blind to anything that may challenge his view.

Where I do feel he is hypocritical is in his attitude to Fenris being given back to Danarius. No matter what their personal differnces are, approving of returning him to slavery is a terrible attitude. This is particular so if it occurs after Fenris has refused to go along with Sebastian's suggestion of turning Anders into the templars, which Anders can overhear. Yet he calls Fenris a hypocrite because his sister is a mage, which is ridiculous when up to that point Fenris was unaware of that fact and since she was willing to betray him to Danarius in return for power, she has only reinforced Fenris' previous assertions about Tevinter mages.
Incidentally, he blows the Chantry because he wants to provoke a war and because the Grand Cleric represents the "compromise" that has existed between mages and templars in the past and which he utterly rejects. If he was aiming for a military target, the obvious choice was the Gallows, which would have had symbolic siginficance as well. However, removing Meredith rather than Elthina was more likely to result in "compromise", bearing in mind that most people, including many templars, think Meredith is mad and would welcome her removal.

[TEWR]

Justice/Vengeance blew up a church. That's reasonably malevolent

Arguable. One can argue that position based on the fact that Demons are normally self-serving. Justice/Vengeance's blowing up of the Chantry -- which only occurs on the Rivalry path, where he wants it to happen -- does little to serve Justice's own interests, but rather the interests of Mages everywhere by showcasing that the Templars can easily slaughter all the Mages for an act they had nothing to do with.

It shows the Mages that they do need to fight, that they do need to prove their worth, and that the Chantry/Templar system is corrupt.

In that, it's not so much malevolent as it is a justified act.

which, the Chantry did function as a church as well: the Grand Cleric really was a selfless religious leader

But she was also corrupt. Or an idiot. It's either one or the other.

She deliberately allows the Templars to commit the atrocities they are doing and is completely oblivious to what the Mages are asking for: They don't want absolute freedom. They just want Meredith and her like-minded cronies gone from the Circle.

Or "just," especially considering the very strong possibility that there were people in that building when it blew who weren't part of the chantry

We actually hear more of how the Chantry doesn't assist children in Kirkwall or how the children refuse the aid of the Chantry then we do of the Chantry actually helping people.

And Anders will state on the Rivalry path something along the lines of "Come Midnight, it won't matter anymore".

And the Chantry is closed at night. So it seems that Anders set his bomb up to take out the Chantry when it was full of only priests and Templars.

She erroneously believes that supporting the Mages is supporting total Mage liberation.

She's not innocent in all of this. She's not

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 11 juin 2012 - 01:00 .

[Sinuphro]

i sold fenris to his former master; maybe i should have just killed him but i figured sparing his master was the better option

[Blacklash93]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
But she was also corrupt. Or an idiot. It's either one or the other.

She deliberately allows the Templars to commit the atrocities they are doing and is completely oblivious to what the Mages are asking for: They don't want absolute freedom. They just want Meredith and her like-minded cronies gone from the Circle.

She was scared and worried what taking a position would do. Her life and position could both be on the line no matter what she did. It's also very easy to see that someone as influential as her expressing any opinion would be like throwing a match into a tank of gasoline. Keeping the status quo, no matter how unstable, is better than the entire city falling apart.

And the Templars commiting atrocoties doesn't mean she consciously allows them to happen. That's an assumption of things we have no knoledge of. However she saw the situation, she knew what Meredith and her Templars were capable of and what they would do to those who challenge them. Openly opposing them would not be productive or safe for anyone.

She needed both the mages and Templars to trust and respect her. She was the only thing keeping the mages from doing more rash stupid things that would make the Templars come down on them and result in a conflict that would tear Kirkwall apart. She needed to keep Meredith from coming down on them when they inevitably did things to upset the Templars and provoke their wrath. Picking a side would compromise the middle ground and voice of reason she was viewed as. What if she didn't step in at the beginning of the 3rd act? Meredith was seriously considering making an example of the First Enchanter somehow. The mages would not respond well to that.

Modifié par Blacklash93, 11 juin 2012 - 09:02 .

[Gervaise]

Let's just be clear on this - Anders did not kill the Grand Cleric because she was corrupt or an idiot. He killed her because she was preventing the mage templar conflict from occurring. He says this himself. "I removed the possibility of compromise because there is no compromise".

In fact we hear from Sebastian in Act 3 that Elthina is worried about Meredith and the fact that she is no longer taking her advice. He says this in a conversation with Averline, no doubt to discover if Elthina can look to the guard to help her. Averline's response is to support Meredith. Normally the Chantry would look to the templars to enforce decisions or failing that the civil authorities. When the leader of one no longer listens to you and the leader of the other supports them, you are powerless to do anything.

Elthina is warned to leave Kirkwall for her own safety. She refuses to do so because it will open the way to an all out war between mages and templars in the city and ultimately a likely exalted march by the Divine in which ordinary people will suffer. You can argue that eventually Meredith might have acted regardless of what Elthina said but at the point that Anders blows her up, this has not yet occurred. Elthina is still keeping the fragile peace between factions, so Ander concludes she has to die.

[Night Dreams]

darthnick427 wrote...

Well....In all honesty Anders merged with a spirit that became a demon because of Anders' hate towards Templars.....so technically he didn't intentionally merge himself with a demon he unintentionally created one....

Yes, but even naive Merril realises the dangers of what she is doing, she's just willing to suffer those consequences. She tells Anders at one point even that she knew "all spirits are dangerous" and that he in fact didn't when he merged with Justice. They are all spirits, some just care more about entering the human world and act as manifestations of our bad traits, ie the demons.