1056 réponses à ce sujet

[kamal_]

What Ark said and for that reason, something like that should check spellcraft. You check stats when it's a general ability (strength to bend bars, int for a general logic puzzle, wisdom for a good answer to a koan), check skills for specialist knowledge (survival to field dress a hunted deer, alchemy to recognize a potion without a taste test...). Somewhere I wrote a long post about things you can skillcheck for, and alternative uses for skills.

[PJ156]

For me it is probably spellcraft but actually it depends on the answer to the problem. A sorc or mage might understand the circles magic structure through spellcraft and bypass it. Int may be used by any character to guess that the flow of the circle is disrupted in some way by pulling out some integral part of the circles make up. A ranger may see tracks in the dust that show where others have walked to get past it.

Perhaps the make up of the circle is ancient and a lore check will give the answer.

PJ

[Dann-J]

Tchos wrote...

PS: Speaking of things I've looked for and not found, did I overlook any mugs/steins?  I was going to put some in my taverns.

I've yet to find any mug or stein placeables. There are plenty of bottles, and a large jug, but the closest thing to a cup placeable is a group of six chalices.

You could always create a new placeable appearance based on the equippable stein model. There is also an individual chalice model that I don't think there is a blueprint for.

I find it a lot easier to create model VFX than to create new entries in placeables.2DA. You then create a placeable effect blueprint using the new FX, or just place down one of the existing ones and change the FX it uses. My 'Handy VFX' set could be used to create custom placeable effects. The downside to the placeable effect approach is that you can't make them usable (although you could cheat and put a scaled-down collision box in the same place).

Modifié par DannJ, 03 juillet 2012 - 11:00 .

[Tchos]

Okay, thanks for all those reasons! Everyone is unanimous here, for a variety of reasons. I'll change it to a spellcraft check. I had been thinking of spellcraft as just a tool to recognise a spell being cast for the purpose of counterspelling it. I especially wouldn't want to leave sorcerers hanging, when they should probably be able to guess its function intuitively.

Kamal, I did a search for that post you mention, but I couldn't find it. I do remember reading one about your use of skills in Crimmor, though, and your good custom rogue-oriented systems.

Today I focused on one of the inns. This place has no quests, so it's all about atmosphere and providing the necessary inn/tavern services, such as the party registry book, the ability to get a good night's sleep, and a safe place to store extra items if you don't want to carry it all around. It also offers entertainment, and is a good place to find additional adventurers to join your party.

As part of the atmosphere, I wanted NPCs to be sitting at the tables and doing animation, so I perhaps unnecessarily tried out and tried to understand several sitting systems, when in fact there's a script in SoZ that makes NPCs sit at a table and eat animatedly. But oh well. It just means you'll be able to sit in the taverns, if you want. Nothing unusual, since I've played numerous modules that include that function, but I like having it in there. Only two of the stools at the bar won't be sittable, because making them work required adding walkmesh helpers to raise the elevation, but in the tile that two of them occupied, the walkmesh went insane if I placed a helper anywhere in it, and made the whole tile unwalkable.



This is my first implementation of an alternative stairwell to use instead of the stair tiles.

I have two small notepads here on my desk, and each time I playtest, I tend to fill a page with a new checklist of things to fix, or things I forgot to include. If I don't write them down, I'll probably forget to do them.

I had some trouble with one door, which appears unaffected by shadows and is fully lit at all times, until it's opened (the orange one in the screenshot below). I tried replacing the door entirely, and adjusting the fog settings, but it didn't help. I ended up disabling the fog entirely to get rid of it.



That reminds me that in the previous interior, I had a problem with the water. It basically turned black if I lowered it below elevation 0, which is where it had to be.

Even though it doesn't include quests, I wasn't able to finish it today, because I was fiddling around too much with the sitting ability and the ambient NPC behaviour. Plus, the toolset has been crashing any time I try loading the large town area after having loaded other areas, even if they're closed. It might be a memory problem. Since I had to do this to check the exterior of the building as a guide to the interior design, and also to place the waypoints and destinations on the doors on other occasions, and to remind myself what I called those waypoints (I've started a text file to keep track of all my waypoint tags), I think I may have lost upwards of an hour today just on toolset crashes and reloads.

I still need to add the storage, the innkeeper conversation, and the audience reaction to the entertainment.

Given how long these town interiors are taking, if I can only do one per day, then I'll have to stretch my deadline to "before July has ended". My original plan was to make heavy use of prefabs, but the tools are just too tempting to make them the way that I want them.

P.S. to Dann: There is a small cup placeable from SoZ (filled and empty), but of course it's not a stein. SoZ also includes some more appetising plates of food than the Klingon qagh that everyone was eating in the vanilla resources. I have your Handy VFX, and plan to use them in this inn, so I'll try making a placeable stein effect with them tomorrow. Good idea. It won't matter that they're static in this case.

[kamal_]

Here's my thing on skill checks and ways to use them.
http://kamalpoe.blog...ill-checks.html

How much ram do you have? I would have problems opening multiple exteriors in a toolset session before upgrading my pc last year.

You did good to get the npc sitting on the stools. That's tricky and you have to use the walkmesh helpers.

[Arkalezth]

I'll have to check it out next time, but I'm pretty sure a PW I play on has mug placeables. Don't ask me where they got them from, though. I'll let you know if I find out.

[Tchos]

@Kamal: Thanks for the link!  [I use the standard form instead of the quick reply so I can make active, clickable links.]  I have 5GB of RAM, but I'm not clear on how much of that is usable by any single application.  I've read old information that claims a 3GB limit per application.  The computer itself is somewhere around 5 years old, I think, but my graphics card was very high end at that time.

@Ark: That would be cool.  Thanks.  I'll be interested to know if they've made them into actual placeables or if they're using the FX method.

[kevL]

32-bit windows has a ~2.5gb maximum.

( 2^32 - vidRAM ) <- i think


The toolset likes to hold onto whatever RAM it has used and won't release it. I close & reload the TS after ~2 areas plus a few #includes.

[Dann-J]

I've got a sitting system in a module I'm working on now. I scale the chair placeable in the Z direction based on the race of whoever is using it. That way half-orcs don't levitate, and halflings and gnomes don't pass through the seat ghost-style. You haven't just been testing with human characters, have you? [*Cough* - racist...]

So far I've got bar stools that cause the player (or NPCs) to use eating and drinking animations, and some chairs and couches in a library where the players can sit and read. The usable seat placeables themselves take care of the animations with their own heartbeat scripts (the sitter being stored as a local object variable on them). Setting the sitter to unbumpable and to not turn on dialogue helps to prevent them standing up again unexpectedly (although changing armour while sitting still causes them to stand).

[Tchos]

@kevL: I'll have to upgrade eventually just for the memory limitation, despite everything else being very comfortable. Annoying.

@Dann: Well, I haven't actually tested it with non-humans yet, but the systems I'm using (Patcha's sitting boxes and setscale-scripted chair placeables from DeekinTheMadWizard) say they should work with anyone. I'll find out. The unbumpable setting I did figure out, since in my first playtest they all stood up when I brushed past their chairs, and then sat down again on empty air.

I like the idea of having the seat placeables themselves handling the animations. Is that in an upcoming module, or one you've done already? I'll be interested in looking at that for reference for my future modules.

[kevL]

T. - will hold out for as long as I can, very comfy in deed

[Arkalezth]

I've taken a look. Not my prettiest screenshot, but it shows what I've found. Here you can see mugs, goblets, jars... the mug seems to be the VFX one though (I haven't been able to ask so far but it looks the same): http://dl.dropbox.co...0412_132959.jpg

There's also a mug "weapon" item which I would have sworn that looked more wooden-like, but I've checked that too and it seems that I was wrong (hadn't used it for a while), it looks the same too.

Sorry that things aren't really as I recalled them, I'll ask the PW bosses anyway when I have the chance, but it looks like you'll have to do the VFX trick.

[Arkalezth]

I was told the tankards in that pic are part of one of the 3c haks, and the rest of the stuff are generic NWN2 things, some of them rescaled.

That's all I can say, I'm a toolset numpty so if you have any question I'll probably won't be able to answer it. Hope that helped somehow.

[kamal_]

Arkalezth wrote...

I was told the tankards in that pic are part of one of the 3c haks, and the rest of the stuff are generic NWN2 things, some of them rescaled.

That's all I can say, I'm a toolset numpty so if you have any question I'll probably won't be able to answer it. Hope that helped somehow.

The cups are in the toolset, as is the pitcher and six piece set of wine type glasses. Only the tankards aren't default.

[Tchos]

I replaced the fog that I had to remove from the inn's interior with a placed fog effect that I think may be an improvement. I also noticed after I posted that screenshot of the stairwell door that those wooden beams shouldn't have been behind it, so I replaced that wall texture.



I applied the stein model to a VFX, and now I can place it as a placed FX, but the model is not quite resting on its bottom. I think it may have been made that way intentionally to fit better in the hand when used in an animation, and that's why it was never included as a placeable. If we could rotate objects in all three directions, it would work fine.

Based on your screenshot, Ark, I think the PW is using this same method, because I can tell from looking at it that their stein is also rotated a bit along the axis that we can't affect, and they're hiding it with other placed cups in front of it, and by rotating it so that the lowest edge is facing the viewer.

Unfortunately, in my tests with non-human characters, I found that the invisible sitting boxes weren't suitable for the barstools, so unless I made them usable for tall creatures only, they're out. The alternative of shrinking the stool just doesn't look right at a bar counter. It's noticeable here on my dwarf. (The pink hair on the barmaid in the background is due to conflicting naming in my hair models.)



One thing's for sure -- I'm glad I didn't start with an inn first, because it seems tailor-made as a modding time sink, with its NPC activities, services, and little touches like seating which can get out of control. I'm done with the seating here. It's too bad about having to remove the sittable stools, but the chairs work for all races using the resizing method.

I had to write a new script for the hearthstone so that I could set its location from a generic "inn" conversation. I used custom tokens in local variables on the innkeeper to determine what services the conversation will offer, so I can use this conversation for all of my inns and taverns.

I also applied Uncle FB's barmaid scripts to liven up the place, but I need to put something in there to make her face the bartender when she goes up to the counter, because she's not facing in the direction of the waypoint she walks to.

[Arkalezth]

Tchos wrote...

Based on your screenshot, Ark, I think the PW is using this same method, because I can tell from looking at it that their stein is also rotated a bit along the axis that we can't affect, and they're hiding it with other placed cups in front of it, and by rotating it so that the lowest edge is facing the viewer.

I don't think some parts are hidden on purpose, I used that pic because it showed every recipient type, but you can find lone mugs in other places.

Anyway, check those "3c haks", you should find something there, somewhere, or so I was told.

[Dann-J]

I prefer the three-legged 'footstool' to those high-chair varieties, since they're much more sitter-friendly. Although they work better with low tables than they would with a high bar. A human-sized character sits on the footstool perfectly at its default scale. Either that's coincidence, or they were designed with sitting in mind.

I can't imagine a dwarf debasing himself by struggling up onto a high stool anyway.

The module I'm currently working on is a work-in-process, set in the Western Heartlands around the Uldoon Trail (so Gullykin features prominently). Most of the seating is designed for halflings, so larger characters find their knees jammed uncomfortably against tables at times.

I'm thinking of replacing my sittable couches with environmental object couches with usable cushions on them. That way I can have two characters sitting on the one couch, scaling the cushion up and down instead of the couch itself. I'll have to experiment and see what it looks like though.

That damn couch model (or 'sofa' to our north American friends) was a real pain. I use the location of the sittable object itself to relocate the sitter, but that particular model was built backwards. I had to build an optional rotation variable into the sitting script to stop people sitting backwards on them.

[Tchos]

Ark: Here's a screenshot of how the stein looks that I placed from the effect.  The angle is subtle, but it's clearly not sitting "flat".



Dann: Yes, it's just that at a bar counter, it would have to be a high stool like that, or I'd have to make a shorter bar section to cater to the smaller races.  Actually, I think I should do that in the other taverns!  This one I suppose will be more oriented toward the taller races, and the others will be more egalitarian or entirely short-oriented.

Have you looked at the KEMO sitting system?  It's very extensive, with multiple poses, and claims that races each have their own animations to sit in the same chairs without resizing the chair.  One of the screenshots shows a halfling sitting in a comparatively huge chair with her legs dangling down and her arms up on the armrests.  The only reason I didn't use it was that it would have added over 80 MB to the module.  The resizing cushion idea sounds very promising, though.  Also, one of the systems I installed used a rotational variable for certain seats.

[kevL]

a long time ago I hacked around on a PW that used KEMO's

i didn't know what I was looking at then, but it is sure impressive

[Arkalezth]

Ah, I see. I'll take a look next time I see one.

[Dann-J]

The resizable cushion approach doesn't look too bad:


The couch or bench in question has to be gnome/halfling size to begin with though. I've got a few halfling-sized benches scattered around Gullykin, so I can put cushions (pillow no.5) on them and make them sittable. It's a bit of a tight squeeze trying to fit two half-orcs on them though.

[Tchos]

Dann: That looks very good, in my opinion!  I'm guessing this is the same Gullykin that appeared in Baldur's Gate.  That's the only halfling village I've ever been to in any of these games, in fact.  Whether it's the same or not, it should be a fun place to explore.

It also makes me realise that I wasn't doing enough to integrate the various races into this place.  Just adding all the races in wasn't enough.

Today I got the waitress to face the direction of the waypoint (which is toward the bartender she's supposed to be talking to) by adding the line "ActionDoCommand(SetFacing(GetFacing(oBar)));" to her code, where "oBar" is the waypoint. I found that command by following three levels of includes in a script. I had tried just adding the variable X2_L_WAYPOINT_SETFACING to the waypoint with a value of 1, as it was described here, but that didn't work. It probably only works if the waypoint was arrived at as part of the waypoint patrol behaviour.

I also corrected the grammar and punctuation in the barmaid dialogues with customers and the bartender.

The rescripted hearthstone took some trouble to figure out why it wasn't working as it worked before. Apparently GetNearestObjectByTag doesn't work as well as the normal GetObjectByTag. It should be fine to use the latter. The player should never have more than one hearthstone, because the dialogues check for the party already having one, and there should be no reason to drop the one you have or put it in storage and ask for another one.

In making the safe deposit box for the inn (accessed by speaking to the innkeeper, as in The Witcher), I was surprised to find there was no command in the conversational scripts to just open a container's inventory. Ideally, I wanted this to open a container that didn't necessarily exist in the area, but when that was evidently impossible, I still found that I couldn't just open a container's inventory like I can open a store's inventory. The best I could come up with was to have a hidden container flagged unusable, but when the dialogue command is issued, it sets the container to usable, and forces the player to "interact" with it, which opens its inventory. After that, it sets the container to unusable again, so it can only be accessed via conversation, and can't even be seen otherwise. It took a while to find that command, since they spelled "usable" as "useable".

Spent more time fine-tuning the seated customer animations. The heartbeat script for that purpose from the SoZ inns turned out to be flawed, as they never did anything other than a single particular idle. It appears that they had a fallthrough animation set to play, which was overriding the random selection. I tried removing that, and then they started picking random animation, but also kept standing up and sitting back down. The problem was that the random picks were set not to loop. I fixed that, and now they do an assortment of animations without getting up. I'm also making a variant of this script to use for audience members to react to the entertainment with vocal emotes.

[Tchos]

Today I made the second of the taverns/inns. Technically, I have 2 inns and 2 taverns in this module, and what I've made so far is one of the taverns and one of the inns. The Drunken Dragon is the new tavern, and it's a dwarf-run tavern serving strong, dwarrrrrrrven ale!

This tavern is entirely oriented toward the shorter races, and the customers are a mix of dwarves, gnomes, and halflings. There is one token table in a dim corner for the "giants". What took most of the day was getting the chair resizing code working for both NPCs and PCs. It took a lot of experimentation, but eventually I understood what it was doing, and how, which allowed me to have the same kind of lively animation and also have resizing chairs. I put one small group of adventurers comprised of a half-orc, an elf, and a human at a cramped little table to ensure it worked, and I sat my diverse party at the chairs to test them as well. All is well.



This is another place where I used placeable walls to make a room of the size and shape that better fit the exterior. I made prefabs out of the walls that I constructed from tinted signpost beams, BCK wall sections, and crates.

[Tchos]

I have no idea what causes some of these toolset problems. Aside from the many crashes today, causing me to need to redo a lot of work, I'm having trouble with NPCs not showing the armour that I'm giving them, despite making sure that the boxes for "Never show helm" and "Never show armour" are not selected. As far as I can tell, these are normal vanilla game items that aren't showing up, like the Shadowdancer outfit.

Other items do show up, but not their tints. Or the tints appear in the armour set preview, but not on the NPC in the area. Or a new item won't show up on a placed instance until I copy the NPC and paste a new copy into the area.

Other annoyances: Can't copy text from text blocks with Ctrl-C, and can't paste hex colour codes into the hex area on the colour picker for tinting (have to use the RGB field in properties).

I discovered that Uncle FB's bartender/barmaid scripts only work in one location per game, due to the scripts looking for specific waypoints. If there's more than one bar, then there's more than one set of bar waypoints, and it doesn't just go with the nearest ones (the ones that are in the current area). Took me a while to figure out that was the reason for the strange behaviour of the barmaid in the second tavern. So after I figured it out, I set about generalising the script so that I could just set some local variables on the bartender and the barmaid, and the script would pick up the separate sets of waypoints from that. I also added a few more lines to make the NPCs face the direction of their waypoints in the rest of the instances when they should.

I also set up the hearthstone teleport location and the deposit box, and added another track of custom music. Now this location is done. I also went back to the first inn and added the entertainer, after modifying the texture of a piece of ACME gear for him to wear.

I think I'll create the town hall interior and interactions next session. It's a much simpler location than these last two.