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Characters that you felt made a 180 turn


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#26
MegaBadExample

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Mr Massakka wrote...

In a good way:
- Jack. Came down to a normal human being and started a life after the torture. Only problem: Also Renegade Sheps get her teacher side.

In a bad way:
- Miranda. Her family and sensitive side overwhelmed what the ruthless Cerberus officer once was. Always appreciated that side, but the exclusion from the Cerberus arc was disturbing.
- Liara. Really poor executed. She kinda tries to be that ruthless Shadow Broker (a role she has been forced in to maintain her importance through the plot) and a few moments later she is this sensitive Asari again.

Who I don't think changed:
- Ashley. She is still that loyal, tough and racist marine with a very strong affection to the Alliance. I don't see any change throughout the trilogy.


Ashley isn't racist. How can she be considered racist in ME3? "Tali's like a little sister"??? Hell, even Garrus (a turian) likes her. The Alliance isn't everything either... she ditched them in ME1 to follow Shepard to Ilos. Believe it or not, Ashley has good reasons for not leaving the Alliance and joining Shepard in ME2. Very good ones.

Why can't Liara be sensitive around the people she knows and cares for? That shows trust. If Liara was unable to buck up and be tough at times when she had to, she'd be useless in a fight. And would most likely be dead by now. However, Liara's witnessed as much war as everyone else.

Modifié par MegaBadExample, 06 juin 2012 - 11:59 .


#27
wright1978

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Mr Massakka wrote...

In a good way:
- Jack. Came down to a normal human being and started a life after the torture. Only problem: Also Renegade Sheps get her teacher side.

In a bad way:
- Miranda. Her family and sensitive side overwhelmed what the ruthless Cerberus officer once was. Always appreciated that side, but the exclusion from the Cerberus arc was disturbing.
- Liara. Really poor executed. She kinda tries to be that ruthless Shadow Broker (a role she has been forced in to maintain her importance through the plot) and a few moments later she is this sensitive Asari again.

Who I don't think changed:
- Ashley. She is still that loyal, tough and racist marine with a very strong affection to the Alliance. I don't see any change throughout the trilogy.


Yep, Jack only works imo if you paragoned her. Renegaded Jack becomes a teacher too! Wonder how many students she murdered.

Miranda. Sure wish i could talk to her about her plans to get a band of Cerberus renegades together to fight back against TIM. That sounds the sort of thing my girl would do. What you want to talk again about the Control chip which i agreed with you about in ME2 and about your sister who we rescued in ME2 instead. Ok, at least she'll come along to confront TIM?, What no! Grrrr Bioware.

#28
nos_astra

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Jack's change was especially jarring. It's not even that I don't like the new Jack. I just feel her character in ME2 was too much. The abuse, the rape, the experiments, the anger, the need for vengeance, the joy in killing ... she was damaged to a point where I wondered why I would want such a loose cannon on my ship. And now she's a teacher? Um, sorry, no.

(Even when paragon-ed, what she probably needed was a psychatrist and life-long counseling, not a teaching post.)

Modifié par klarabella, 06 juin 2012 - 12:01 .


#29
Apathy1989

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jahaa wrote...

Kaidan, but in a good way. He's a good boy. I'm glad i saved him in my canon savegame.


Ash and Kaiden had a bit of a role reversal.

ME1 - Ash is interesting. Has problems and qwerks. Kaiden is boring, all of his problems are resolved. His lack of confidence is annoying.

ME3 - Kaiden has done something with his life. Risen ranks, leads a team of biotics. Still a good boy, his lack of aggressive behaviour makes him more likable. He's even occasionally funny. Ash has risen ranks, but seemingly for no good reason. She doesn't seem to have done anything. Still moaning about her sister. Hardly ever funny. Her aggressive behaviour which was previously sexy, becomes just annoying and aggrivating.

#30
Stalker

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MegaBadExample wrote...
Ashley isn't racist. How can she be considered racist in ME3? "Tali's like a little sister"??? Hell, even Garrus (a turian) likes her. The Alliance isn't everything either... she ditched them in ME1 to follow Shepard to Ilos. Believe it or not, Ashley has good reasons for not leaving the Alliance and joining Shepard in ME2. Very good ones.

Why can't Liara be sensitive around the people she knows and cares for? That shows trust. If Liara was unable to buck up and be tough at times when she had to, she'd be useless in a fight. And would most likely be dead by now. However, Liara's witnessed as much war as everyone else.

I think Ashley is racist, probably because I never heard the dialogue you are talking about.
I got the impression after the comments on ME1, refusement to join in ME2, and the only interaction I have seen in ME3 was getting drunk with the Human marine Vega. I never recognized a 180° turn there. Perhaps 80°.

What I think about Liara is that she has these 2 sides completely not matching up to each other. Miranda (as a very good example on how to execute a 2-sided character) became this ruthless attitude for certain reasons, while still remaining a caring person.
Liara on the other hand is out of the nothing this ruthless "I will destroy you with my Biotics" informant, turns around and falls into Shepard's arms, almost crying. This continues in ME3. 
Don't get me wrong, I actually liked her character, but this Shadow Broker arc never really fit in my book.

Modifié par Mr Massakka, 06 juin 2012 - 12:13 .


#31
MegaBadExample

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Mr Massakka wrote...

MegaBadExample wrote...
Ashley isn't racist. How can she be considered racist in ME3? "Tali's like a little sister"??? Hell, even Garrus (a turian) likes her. The Alliance isn't everything either... she ditched them in ME1 to follow Shepard to Ilos. Believe it or not, Ashley has good reasons for not leaving the Alliance and joining Shepard in ME2. Very good ones.

Why can't Liara be sensitive around the people she knows and cares for? That shows trust. If Liara was unable to buck up and be tough at times when she had to, she'd be useless in a fight. And would most likely be dead by now. However, Liara's witnessed as much war as everyone else.

I think Ashley is racist, probably because I never heard the dialogue you are talking about.
I got the impression after the comments on ME1, refusement to join in ME2, and the only interaction I have seen in ME3 was getting drunk with the Human marine Vega. I never recognized a 180° turn there. Perhaps 80°.

What I think about Liara is that she has these 2 sides completely not matching up to each other. Miranda (as a very good example on how to execute a 2-sided character) became this ruthless attitude for certain reasons, while still remaining a caring person.
Liara on the other hand is out of the nothing this ruthless "I will destroy you with my Biotics" informant, turns around and falls into Shepard's arms, almost crying. This continues in ME3. 
Don't get me wrong, I actually liked her character, but this Shadow Broker arc never really fit in my book.


Well, "racist" is a pretty offensive title to just attach to someone, like that. Especially when you never really took the time to get to know them, or understand what they're actually saying. Ashley isn't racist in ME1. She's using her head more than anything. Nobody seems to notice her dialogues with the alien crew members in the elevators... shame.

I think Bioware balanced the two sides nicely enough. Liara's supposedly young for an Asari, and ocassionally that still shows. Sometimes she can't can't keep a lid on things. Becoming the SB just happened... and Liara was smart enough to use the network to their advantage. The arc fits for me, since she's been an information broker for two years.

Modifié par MegaBadExample, 06 juin 2012 - 12:30 .


#32
jahaa

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Apathy1989 wrote...

jahaa wrote...

Kaidan, but in a good way. He's a good boy. I'm glad i saved him in my canon savegame.


Ash and Kaiden had a bit of a role reversal.

ME1 - Ash is interesting. Has problems and qwerks. Kaiden is boring, all of his problems are resolved. His lack of confidence is annoying.

ME3 - Kaiden has done something with his life. Risen ranks, leads a team of biotics. Still a good boy, his lack of aggressive behaviour makes him more likable. He's even occasionally funny. Ash has risen ranks, but seemingly for no good reason. She doesn't seem to have done anything. Still moaning about her sister. Hardly ever funny. Her aggressive behaviour which was previously sexy, becomes just annoying and aggrivating.


I agree with you, and that role reversal made me feel really bad during the dinner at the Citadel. He's just a friend for my Shepard but that "i don't regret a thing, Commander" of many other playthroughts in ME1 felt like a stab in that moment.

#33
CptData

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Well, the loss of BWs most likely most talented writer, Chris L'Etoile, shows here.
Ashley and Thane were created by him.

#34
EricHVela

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Certain death for everyone (not just yourself) can change a person's perspective. Losing a war is funny that way.

#35
Guest_Trust_*

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Liara.

#36
DirtySHISN0

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The only characters that i haven't disliked at one point or another are EDI, Joker and Legion.
They are the static/neutral characters.

The others all have changes that make them unpleasant.

#37
Reikilea

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My biggest turning point is Joker and Edi. Especially Edi with What the hell is that? Shiny fembot with big ****** and high heels. I dont need anything like that in my crew. I had enought ****** and heels in ME2.

As for Joker, I feel like his personality dropped from Awesome! to Meh, him?

Best turning point to good is Miranda. Cant say I didnt like her, but was rather indefferent to her as I only liked two new characters from the second game. But her story was waay to interesting. wasted potentioal there. I was soo behind her in the third game and I feel like she houl have been in Cerberus base with Shepard. Not that thing.

#38
Reikilea

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Edit: My internet likes creating double posts.

Modifié par Reikilea, 06 juin 2012 - 04:24 .


#39
Han Shot First

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Two pages and not one mention of our favorite air quoting Turian Councillor? I am disappoint!

He was an anti-human ****** that I couldn't stand in ME1. He is always the most hostile and critical of Shepard out of the three Councillors, and of course was responsible for the "Ah yes, Reapers" quote. In ME3 however he sort of redeems himself. While not entirely likeable in ME3, he is at least somewhat sympathetic, and ends up becoming a huge help to Shepard in garnering Turian support. It is funny in a way how he ends up becoming an ally...war makes strange bedfellows I suppose. Image IPB



As for Liara showing a more ruthless side...

While this is certainly a change, it is one that I liked. I also didn't find it to be unrealistic, as war does change people.

Dr. Eugene Sledge, the author of With the Old Breed at Peleliu and Okinawa, wrote of his first time killing a man during the battle of Peleliu:


Even before the dust had settled I saw a Japanese soldier appear at the blasted opening. He was grim determination personified as he drew back his arm to throw a grenade at us. My carbine was already up. When he appeared, I lined up my sights on his chest and began squeezing off shots. As the first bullet hit him, his face contorted in agony. His knees buckled. The grenade slipped from his grasp. The soldier collapsed in the fusillade and the grenade went off at his feet.

I had just killed a man at close range. That I had seen clearly the pain on his face when my bullets hit him came as a jolt. It suddenly made the war a very personal affair. The expression on that man's face filled me with shame and disgust for the war, and all the misery it was causing.



The same man who wrote that tells of another incident during the Battle of Okinawa, where as a battle hardened veteran he joined some men on the line to have a bit of sport in gunning down a band of Japanese soldiers who were making a suicide charge against their position. Sledge was a mortarman and had been ordered to stay on the mortar, but with the mortar not carrying out fire missions at the moment he had decided to go and get a few shots in on the enemy with his carbine. Afterwards a Lieutenant came up to chew him our for it, and Sledge snapped, "They're Japs, a'int they?! What the hell difference does it make what weapon we use? I'd kill them with my goddamned bare hands if I had to!"

After the war when registering for college, Dr. Sledge was asked by a woman who worked for the university what he had learned in the Marine Corps that might be eligible for academic credits. Sledge started going through the list of various weapons he was trained on and all the skills that would make an infantryman proficient at his tasks. The clueless woman interrupted him and said, "I'm talking about things that would be eligible for academic credit. What is all that stuff? Didn't the Marine Corps teach you anything?" Sledge exploded and shouted at the poor woman, "Lady, they taught me how to kill Japs!"

The war had changed him.

Modifié par Han Shot First, 06 juin 2012 - 04:32 .


#40
Cosmochyck

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CptData wrote...

Well, the loss of BWs most likely most talented writer, Chris L'Etoile, shows here.
Ashley and Thane were created by him.


Agreed.  Thane was a whole different Thane.  If he was romanced, it was atrocious.  And he was so cold - not at all the Thane that was so unguarded at the end of ME2. 

He felt like an imposter, but hell, so did my Shep - the things coming out of her mouth were horrifying.   I kept staring at the screen yelling "no no, she would never say that, stop damn auto-dialogue!!"

#41
Grimez7

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I turned out liking Wrex and Mordin.

Funny, I went into the Tuchanka mission ready to let the Salarians live over the Krogans but I ended up giving the cure to the Krogans. You krogan babies can thank Eve and Wrex for that.

#42
BP93

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The Illusive Man

But I guess I can understand why. He's basically Saren-lite during ME3 but in ME2 he was more...intellectual. He wasn't the same in ME3, where he was basically "You're in my way Shepard, let me handle this my way!". He didn't give any vast explanations for his actions nor did his motives seem as genuine as they did in ME2.

Surprised nobody mentioned Mordin yet. He defended the genophage with all his heart in ME2 but in ME3 it's just one big "Oops"...and now he's curing the genophage and helping the Krogan?

Modifié par BP93, 06 juin 2012 - 05:45 .


#43
Stalker

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BP93 wrote...

The Illusive Man

But I guess I can understand why. He's basically Saren-lite during ME3 but in ME2 he was more...intellectual. He wasn't the same in ME3, where he was basically "You're in my way Shepard, let me handle this my way!". He didn't give any vast explanations for his actions nor did his motives seem as genuine as they did in ME2.

Surprised nobody mentioned Mordin yet. He defended the genophage with all his heart in ME2 but in ME3 it's just one big "Oops"...and now he's curing the genophage and helping the Krogan?

How could I forget to mention TIM... he got the worst turn of character...

Mordin? If you pay attention to his talks in ME2 you will already hear regret for his actions. You just need to ask him more. I actually love that because it's one of the less times a character refuses to mention his problems diretly towards anyone.

Modifié par Mr Massakka, 06 juin 2012 - 06:12 .


#44
Han Shot First

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Surprised nobody mentioned Mordin yet. He defended the genophage with all his heart in ME2 but in ME3 it's just one big "Oops"...and now he's curing the genophage and helping the Krogan?


To be fair, this was actually developed somewhat in ME2. On Mordin's loyalty mission he is faced with the results of the genophage first hand and starts to show signs of being conflicted over it's justification. Prior to that Mordin speaks with absolute conviction when defending the genophage, afterwards he's clearly feeling guilty and conflicted.

With that in mind I didn't find Mordin's reversal in ME3 to be sudden, and all things considered it was developed fairly well.

#45
BP93

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Han Shot First wrote...

Surprised nobody mentioned Mordin yet. He defended the genophage with all his heart in ME2 but in ME3 it's just one big "Oops"...and now he's curing the genophage and helping the Krogan?


To be fair, this was actually developed somewhat in ME2. On Mordin's loyalty mission he is faced with the results of the genophage first hand and starts to show signs of being conflicted over it's justification. Prior to that Mordin speaks with absolute conviction when defending the genophage, afterwards he's clearly feeling guilty and conflicted.

With that in mind I didn't find Mordin's reversal in ME3 to be sudden, and all things considered it was developed fairly well.


Oh I know that. I always purposely make him feel ultra guilty on his loyalty mission but based on his conversations prior to that and his end result in ME3, it is a HUGE 180.

#46
Rikketik

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Tiberis wrote...
Jack changed quite a bit in ME3. I think of her change as a good thing despite how sharp of a change it was. Jacob was, well, yeah. . . EDI I think did a 180. In ME2 she had this calculating, cold undertone to her that seems to have disappeared in ME3. This might be due to how things turned out in the Joker-EDI arc, but I think it was rather fast even for an AI.

You're right about EDI sounding a bit cold and distant during most of ME2, but I think the biggest turning point for her personality is when you remove her restraints during the Collector attack -- she suddenly calls Joker "Jeff" instead of "Mr. Moreau" and she just sounds more pleasant in general. I also think her character development is fast because she is an AI. In ME3 you'll learn that she can modify her own morality protocols, which takes a few days but seeing as Shepard's journey to safe the galaxy takes at least a few weeks (that's what I think at least) she had more than enough time to almost continually develop her personality based on her conversations with Shepard (and probably Joker too, although we, as players, only get to see snippets of it).  

--------------

As for my own opinion about characters: I ended up really liking Kaidan despite hating him during my first playthrough of ME3. After three playthroughs with Ashley, who was even more obnoxious in ME3 than she was in ME1, hearing Kaidan's overly sincere voice was a breath of fresh air. I really liked talking to him, both at the Citadel and at the Normandy. There was chemistry between them, whereas the conversations with Ashley, at the Citadel at least, were quite awkward. Of course, Kaidan's still a little too intense at times, but he seems aware of that and hey, nobody's perfect.

I also had to laugh during the 'date' on the Citadel, when he sounds genuinely confused when he says some people are apparently annoyed by his sincerity. Nice lampshadehanging there.

Modifié par Rikketik, 06 juin 2012 - 06:54 .


#47
EricHVela

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Losing a war that will end everyone can make the selfish selfless, the cowards brave, the brave cowards, the selfless selfish, the calculating emotional, the emotional calculating.

#48
yejo

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Liara... loved her personality in Mass Effect 1.
Then when ME 2 came along is was okay what just ****ing happend to you, you went from people shy uncertain scientist girl too ruthless mafia crimeboss.
There is nothing left of her ME1 personality in ME 3 she now is the new Miranda which was a character i really disliked (more of a Jack person (yeah im masochitic that way)) so hands down Liara.
Jack went through a good change though i would have liked differences in how she turned out in ME3 because of your actions in ME2 (renegade shep or everyone who ignored her should have just had the same old jack back, would have made sense storywise aswell).

#49
Julia_xo

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Cosmochyck wrote...

CptData wrote...

Well, the loss of BWs most likely most talented writer, Chris L'Etoile, shows here.
Ashley and Thane were created by him.


Agreed.  Thane was a whole different Thane.  If he was romanced, it was atrocious.  And he was so cold - not at all the Thane that was so unguarded at the end of ME2. 

He felt like an imposter, but hell, so did my Shep - the things coming out of her mouth were horrifying.   I kept staring at the screen yelling "no no, she would never say that, stop damn auto-dialogue!!"


Agree with you both.

With Thane it was like his ME2 development never happened. I really don't get it. The climax of his romance was a confession that he's scared/doesn't want to die and in the next game he's conflict-free and perfectly ready to die. The change is abrupt and without explanation. He talks about how he has no responsibility or fears now and it's a good end to a life. Way to completely contradict his words from the previous game.

It's like whoever took over from Chris didn't even bother to aquaint themselves with the character. Even Thane's description of what Kepral's syndrome is/does was different. Nothing about Thane in ME3 made any sense.

#50
MegaBadExample

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CptData wrote...

Well, the loss of BWs most likely most talented writer, Chris L'Etoile, shows here.
Ashley and Thane were created by him.


God yes. Without his presence... the characters just weren't the same. But there's a reason he left Bioware. And now, this company is crap. I'm dreading DA3.