150 réponses à ce sujet

[iSousek]

Its because people who wished for m/m relationship had only Cortez as an option. And what if you don't like Cortez? Thus conclusion - we need another male for m/m relationship (but it seems it would be simply better if they opted for Vega)

It was unecessary to turn another female bi because you already had plenty of f/f options
Plus you people should really star treating Ashley an Kaidan as separate characters, just because BW turned one bi, doesn't mean the other should to.

Modifié par iSousek, 06 juin 2012 - 12:24 .

[Icinix]

SavageNoble wrote...

Icinix wrote...

MacCready wrote...

Binary_Helix 1 wrote...

I felt like it was really out of place. Kaidan was the most mature character in the trilogy and he was firmly established as straight in ME1. Despite whatever he was originally designed for that's not what made the final cut. I felt like the sudden change in ME3 really cheapened him and detracted from his established character.

I like how you're essentially implying that homosexuality is immature and cheap.

The change in Kaiden is just as cheap as making Ashley sexier.

My issue, is, and always will be - keeping characters the same.

You can introduce as many new straight, homosexual, monogendered, tall, short, fat, thin, angry, friendly characters as you want.

Just don't change existing characters.

Right, because we all know people are static and unchanging things, their views, thoughts and preferences never alternate. Oh, and of course, upon first meeting someone they quickly reveal every tiny detail about themselves for your leisure. 

Well..in RPGs they usually do  - and then I collect herbs for them or heating elements for their clutch.

There is a difference between character progression, character growth and character redesigns.

Ashley and Kaiden both got given a dousing of the latter.

Kaiden has a great bit of a story arch in ME1 where you can 'harden' him. Garrus has a great bit of a arch where you can push him towards renegade or paragon. That is character growth and progression.

Witnessing the growth as a player and being privy to it - especially as key characters in the series - is important. We play a series, watch a series, watch multiple movies because of the characters. If they change suddenly - people lose interest.

[onchristieroad]

Didn't mind Kaiden being bisexual at all. I'm bisexual, but I don't go around telling everyone, and I'm marrying a woman. Didn't remember him saying in ME1 "FYI Shepard, I'm straight.". Just because he doesn't jump in Space-Pimp MSheps pants in ME1, doesn't mean he isn't gay; he might just have taken years to become aware of the fact/do something about it. Anyhoo, all was good for me.

[MacCready]

Icinix wrote...

MacCready wrote...

Binary_Helix 1 wrote...

I felt like it was really out of place. Kaidan was the most mature character in the trilogy and he was firmly established as straight in ME1. Despite whatever he was originally designed for that's not what made the final cut. I felt like the sudden change in ME3 really cheapened him and detracted from his established character.

I like how you're essentially implying that homosexuality is immature and cheap.

The change in Kaiden is just as cheap as making Ashley sexier.

My issue, is, and always will be - keeping characters the same.

You can introduce as many new straight, homosexual, monogendered, tall, short, fat, thin, angry, friendly characters as you want.

Just don't change existing characters.

But that's the thing, you can still keep your existing characters the same if you wish (although you'd have to mod Ashley if you want her looking the way she was). If you want Kaiden to remain a straight character in your Shepard universe, then you simply do so by never approaching him romantically.

It's like someone arguing that they don't like the fact that their Shepard can be a renegade in their playthrough when they prefer him/her to be more altruistic. Just because the options are there doesn't mean you have to choose them.

[Hvlukas]

Nrieh wrote...
[..]

From my (and Okkam's) logic - if someone looks staight and acts straight..he is, well, straight.

Or you both just have amazingly poor observation skills and very low experience with people that are unlike yourself.
You'd be surprised how few gay men actually look and talk like the gay men that the media likes to portray or those gay characters heterosexual writters write for television and films.

Anderson and Hackett could very well be gay. They could even be cross-dressers. Or former women. We don't know. You're just assuming they're straight.


Again, before I leave this depressing thread and before the lock down: All I read is this:  "I don't like that strangers can play the game differently. Take away their choices, so I can be happy again."

Modifié par Hvlukas, 06 juin 2012 - 12:34 .

[Theodoro]

TheDonk95 wrote...

Me too. It was awkward talking to him in ME3 knowing he suddenly turned bisexual.. He might suprise kiss me or something..

And yes - there's the real problem of it all - how his bisexuality was handled in the game. I wouldn't have had anything against it if not for the way that he suddenly throws himself at M!Shep, and vice versa. With the problem of autodialogue, it was impossible for M!Shep to be both nice to Kaidan as a brother-to-brother type of conversation and not flirt with him. I would have given leeway for that if M!Shep is single, but given the fact that he isn't and Kaidan is fully aware of that (seeing as he understands when F!Shep has cheated on him), it was simply odd and awkward to talk to him anymore.

Don't get me wrong - this is a problem shared by other characters, as well - namely Shiala and Sha'ira. It was very uncomfortable when they made a pass at Shepard, in front of his/her LI, at that. These things could be included in the game, but handled way better.

[lazuli]

FitScotGaymer wrote...

Think about it, could you imagine the rage that would have poured out of the fan base had they made the MeatHead Vega the gay LI? Dear god the very foundations of the BSN woulda shook.

I guess it takes all kinds.  I don't mind Kaidan, but I would have preferred Vega.  I know I'm not alone in this respect either.

[Icinix]

MacCready wrote...

Icinix wrote...

MacCready wrote...

Binary_Helix 1 wrote...

I felt like it was really out of place. Kaidan was the most mature character in the trilogy and he was firmly established as straight in ME1. Despite whatever he was originally designed for that's not what made the final cut. I felt like the sudden change in ME3 really cheapened him and detracted from his established character.

I like how you're essentially implying that homosexuality is immature and cheap.

The change in Kaiden is just as cheap as making Ashley sexier.

My issue, is, and always will be - keeping characters the same.

You can introduce as many new straight, homosexual, monogendered, tall, short, fat, thin, angry, friendly characters as you want.

Just don't change existing characters.

But that's the thing, you can still keep your existing characters the same if you wish (although you'd have to mod Ashley if you want her looking the way she was). If you want Kaiden to remain a straight character in your Shepard universe, then you simply do so by never approaching him romantically.

It's like someone arguing that they don't like the fact that their Shepard can be a renegade in their playthrough when they prefer him/her to be more altruistic. Just because the options are there doesn't mean you have to choose them.

I said it earlier but one of the things I love is the immutable nature of a world and its characters, where only the avatar and the avatars choices in the world alter it.

Seeing how the worlds differ with the same NPCs is fascinating. Its something that draws me into the world.

Having the NPCs themselves change depending on the players presence takes that away. If Alistair could be the king or not based on player conversation - would it take something away from the character? If Wrex was affected by the genophage or not based on player conversation - would it take away the feeling of having influence in the world?

I think the characters, like some aspects of the world, need to be immutable. If a character can change so readily based on the players dialogue, I think it affects the characters integrity.

Wrex, Alistair, Kaiden, Ashley - they're not Wrex, Alistair, Kaiden, Ashley.

There thousands of variations on those characters. I don't like that. I think that is one of the things lacking from the DA2 characters. Because they needed to account for those variations, they all felt so flat and somewhat empty. I can only speak from my personal experience here, but the strongest characters who I felt were the best were ones that were openly the same in everyones game.

Bethany, Carver, Isablla and Aveline. They were characters who in their own special way were immutable.

[matthewmi]

I can't understand people being upset about this at all. If you don't want a bi-sexual or gay Kaidan, don't take the conversations into those areas. You can turn him down quite easily. Heck I'm gay but everyone assumes I'm straight should I go around being offended? No because most people including me don't go around just telling random people/friends their sexuality without a good reason too.

[julio77777]

Hvlukas wrote...

The anwser to that is quite shockingly boring: Sexuality doesn't change who people are. It only affects the one in their lives whom they call "Loved one".

Any character in Mass Effect could be gay. It wouldn't change anything. 

^This
Doesn't change the character one bit.
Seriously people we're in 2012, different sexuality shouldn't be a problem anymore...

[SavageNoble]

TheDonk95 wrote...

Me too. It was awkward talking to him in ME3 knowing he suddenly turned bisexual.. He might suprise kiss me or something..

I seriously hope you're joking. <_<

Icinix wrote...

Witnessing the growth as a player and being privy to it - especially as key characters in the series - is important. We play a series, watch a series, watch multiple movies because of the characters. If they change suddenly - people lose interest.

And I agree with you on that, it is so very important to show character development to the players. Thing is, with Kaidan Shepard barely sees him for nearly three years. Kind of hard to show development when they aren't around each other.

Maybe I'm a tad biased since I've been wanting my Shepard and Kaidan to hook up since ME1, but I thought the M/M Kaidan romance was quite well written. It's the story of a close friendship that has become more though shared loss and personal struggles, Kaidan actually admits to Shepard it took him nearly dying on Mars to realize he has  feelings for him. 

So, no, Kaidan didn't say anything about being attracted to men in Mass Effect 1, but  can attest with personal experience that a lot of gay/bisexual men aren't open with their sexuality with coworkers and friends.

[OlympusMons423]

It should be pointed out that even in real life your hear of guys who had families and a wife for 20 years and then one day say they have been living a lie. You see them and they look like the average guy. No hand gestures or love of musicals either..... Its not as simple as some of us think. Kaiden could be gay or curious about what's its like.

Again though, in game terms.... just give the poor fem-Shepard more places to go with her love. You know, her and Hackett could do a little private military planning up in her cabin.

fem-Shepard:...Ok so am I the reapers this time or are you?

Hackett:.... I'm too old for this. You're the one with the hand-cuffs..what do you think?

fem-Shepard:...Hmmmm...so the reaper are the naught ones

Hackett:.... Yes that right....just pick something. earth will fall by the time you do something.

fem-Shepard:...Why do I always have to pick

Hackett:.... Damn if Sheoard...is this going to take as long as what color baby dolls you are going to wear ?

fem-Shepard:...Well it was between the blue one or the green one

Hackett:.... I think I would have picked red...

[Little Princess Peach]

FitScotGaymer wrote...

I don't see why Kaidan "coming out" in ME3 is any more out of place than the Garrus and Tali romances in ME2? Or why its seemingly more offensive or unbelievable...

They made Kaidan bisexual because they commited to giving BroShep a male LI, and Kaidan seemed to me to be the "best" option for it

BroSHep has more Li's then femshep the females shepards got the boot with the LI's and now they given yet another li to the male players thats the only thing that annoys me not the fact that Kaidan is Bi although it seems out of place considering we all have Liara to fill in the blue spot

[BongMong]

We need to remember that a simulated reality, like a game, does not have the fine detail and flexibility of the real world. Where we would normally pick up on indicators or ask round-about questions to tell someone's sexuality in real life we cannot in a game. In a game these things must be clearly indicated or the default assumption will be made. If that assumption goes unchallenged for a significant length of time (in this case years) then it will seem out of place to contradict it.

We can't directly compare games to real life. In game worlds, state your parameters early on and let the player fill in the blanks as with all other story telling forms. Taking back areas of creative freedom after the fact is a bad idea.

[Icinix]

SavageNoble wrote...

Icinix wrote...

Witnessing the growth as a player and being privy to it - especially as key characters in the series - is important. We play a series, watch a series, watch multiple movies because of the characters. If they change suddenly - people lose interest.

And I agree with you on that, it is so very important to show character development to the players. Thing is, with Kaidan Shepard barely sees him for nearly three years. Kind of hard to show development when they aren't around each other.

Maybe I'm a tad biased since I've been wanting my Shepard and Kaidan to hook up since ME1, but I thought the M/M Kaidan romance was quite well written. It's the story of a close friendship that has become more though shared loss and personal struggles, Kaidan actually admits to Shepard it took him nearly dying on Mars to realize he has  feelings for him. 

So, no, Kaidan didn't say anything about being attracted to men in Mass Effect 1, but  can attest with personal experience that a lot of gay/bisexual men aren't open with their sexuality with coworkers and friends.

Indeed, I actually think it was written well as well - far better than the other VS, who I take even bigger issue with the changes implemented in THAT particular character.

My only singular wish for the whole thing, is that the romance option was there in ME1 for MaleShep and Mr.Alenko - indeed should have been.

Because as it stands at the moment, it really does feel like a change in the character instead of that natural progression of a character through the story.

[InsomniaticMeat]

Does anyone in this thread take into account that people don't state they're gay or bisexual the moment they reach the age of 4? Some people remain insecure about their sexuality until well passed their 30's or 40's. It happens every day.

Do we hear Kaidan talking about having sex with multiple women every week? No. So there's no reason to believe he would do such a thing.

Just because you yourself are straight, doesn't mean someone else can't come out as a bisexual, or a homosexual. We're all equal people. We all have a heart that beats, we all die in the end and our bodies are made up of flesh and blood no matter what religion, ethnic background or sexuality you're a part of.

[SavageNoble]

Tali-vas-normandy wrote...

BroSHep has more Li's then femshep the females shepards got the boot with the LI's and now they given yet another li to the male players thats the only thing that annoys me not the fact that Kaidan is Bi although it seems out of place considering we all have Liara to fill in the blue spot 

Straight BroShep has more Li's than FemShep. Gay BroSheps have two options, throughout the entire series. And we had to wait until the end of the trilogy to be included at all.

So yes, Straight FemSheps got shafted in ME3, but Gay BroSheps got shafted in every game in the series.

[Jonata]

Kaidan was shown to be slightly homophobic about the whole Liara-FemShep thing. This probably doesn't make him straight, but at the very least makes him hypocrite.

[SavageNoble]

Icinix wrote...

SavageNoble wrote...

Icinix wrote...

Witnessing the growth as a player and being privy to it - especially as key characters in the series - is important. We play a series, watch a series, watch multiple movies because of the characters. If they change suddenly - people lose interest.

And I agree with you on that, it is so very important to show character development to the players. Thing is, with Kaidan Shepard barely sees him for nearly three years. Kind of hard to show development when they aren't around each other.

Maybe I'm a tad biased since I've been wanting my Shepard and Kaidan to hook up since ME1, but I thought the M/M Kaidan romance was quite well written. It's the story of a close friendship that has become more though shared loss and personal struggles, Kaidan actually admits to Shepard it took him nearly dying on Mars to realize he has  feelings for him. 

So, no, Kaidan didn't say anything about being attracted to men in Mass Effect 1, but  can attest with personal experience that a lot of gay/bisexual men aren't open with their sexuality with coworkers and friends.

Indeed, I actually think it was written well as well - far better than the other VS, who I take even bigger issue with the changes implemented in THAT particular character.

My only singular wish for the whole thing, is that the romance option was there in ME1 for MaleShep and Mr.Alenko - indeed should have been.

Because as it stands at the moment, it really does feel like a change in the character instead of that natural progression of a character through the story.

Then the change must have been decided in ME2, because Kaidan will tell male Shepard "Losing you was like loosing a limb" on Horizon. 

Not sure about you, but that's not something I'd tell one of my male friends I didn't have deeper feelings for. 

[Icinix]

Jonata wrote...

Kaidan was shown to be slightly homophobic about the whole Liara-FemShep thing. This probably doesn't make him straight, but at the very least makes him hypocrite.

Indeed, there also seems to be a suggested interest in Liara.

Also I believe there is some implied dialogue about him and Ashley at some stage - but that could have been on way traffic from Ashley.

[lillitheris]

“Kaidan was the most mature character in the trilogy and he was firmly established as straight in ME1.”

I think you might want to replay ME. Or, you know, you probably wouldn’t want to, but you should.

Modifié par lillitheris, 06 juin 2012 - 12:52 .

[Little Princess Peach]

SavageNoble wrote...

Tali-vas-normandy wrote...

BroSHep has more Li's then femshep the females shepards got the boot with the LI's and now they given yet another li to the male players thats the only thing that annoys me not the fact that Kaidan is Bi although it seems out of place considering we all have Liara to fill in the blue spot 

Straight BroShep has more Li's than FemShep. Gay BroSheps have two options, throughout the entire series. And we had to wait until the end of the trilogy to be included at all.

So yes, Straight FemSheps got shafted in ME3, but Gay BroSheps got shafted in every game in the series.

wait did Broshep who was male oriantated sexually only had the Liara option until ME3?

[Icinix]

SavageNoble wrote...

Icinix wrote...

SavageNoble wrote...

Icinix wrote...

Witnessing the growth as a player and being privy to it - especially as key characters in the series - is important. We play a series, watch a series, watch multiple movies because of the characters. If they change suddenly - people lose interest.

And I agree with you on that, it is so very important to show character development to the players. Thing is, with Kaidan Shepard barely sees him for nearly three years. Kind of hard to show development when they aren't around each other.

Maybe I'm a tad biased since I've been wanting my Shepard and Kaidan to hook up since ME1, but I thought the M/M Kaidan romance was quite well written. It's the story of a close friendship that has become more though shared loss and personal struggles, Kaidan actually admits to Shepard it took him nearly dying on Mars to realize he has  feelings for him. 

So, no, Kaidan didn't say anything about being attracted to men in Mass Effect 1, but  can attest with personal experience that a lot of gay/bisexual men aren't open with their sexuality with coworkers and friends.

Indeed, I actually think it was written well as well - far better than the other VS, who I take even bigger issue with the changes implemented in THAT particular character.

My only singular wish for the whole thing, is that the romance option was there in ME1 for MaleShep and Mr.Alenko - indeed should have been.

Because as it stands at the moment, it really does feel like a change in the character instead of that natural progression of a character through the story.

Then the change must have been decided in ME2, because Kaidan will tell male Shepard "Losing you was like loosing a limb" on Horizon. 

Not sure about you, but that's not something I'd tell one of my male friends I didn't have deeper feelings for. 

Haha yeah. Sounds right.

They went "Right, the VS. What are we going to do? Got it. Lets cement Alenko as interested in men, and make Ashley a full on angry racist."

[Getorex]

There's this virus in the future that can change a person into gay/bisexual. That's it. A virus.

Or more space magic.