150 réponses à ce sujet

[wolf99000]

even if he did not say anything in me1 it really does not matter sometimes you dont realise till you meet that specail person and in his case lose them then find them again

the only real issue with it is why only him and not ashley that was the most crazy thing

and anyway he is only bi if you got that way with him if you dont go down that route he is just the say old kaidan

[Ellyria]

TOBY FLENDERSON wrote...
Then they ddid it again with TOR they make everyone bisexual in a patch.

*facepalm* What are you talking about? SGRs aren't even in TOR yet, and when they are, it sounds like some companions will be available to both sexes, but not all, and new companions will be added to fill in the rest.


As for Kaidan, I always play female, so I'm never given even a hint if he likes men or not. But I'm not bothered by the fact that he's with DudeShep in someone else's game, because who am I to dictate how someone else plays their character?

[Vigilant111]

OP: people cannot TURN in terms of sexual orientation, and there is no such thing as FIRMLY established, it is a game, stuff can change

Are you really saying that guys shouldn't share Kaidan? that guys shouldn't LOVE Kaidan? that Kaidan only deserved to be loved by a femShep?

[BeefoTheBold]

Hmm. An interesting point.

I can see how this might be an issue for some people. I personally have no problem whatsoevever with same-sex romances, but showing a particular character to be bisexual or gay should happen before the third game of a trilogy in some way.

I imagine if you've got a particular feel that a character's sexuality is a certain way before then it would seem immersion breaking to suddenly change it.

This might be a casualty of the very limited role of Kaiden/Ashley in ME2. Perhaps Kaiden was always intended to be bisexual.

[wolf99000]

Vigilant111 wrote...

OP: people cannot TURN in terms of sexual orientation, and there is no such thing as FIRMLY established, it is a game, stuff can change

Are you really saying that guys shouldn't share Kaidan? that guys shouldn't LOVE Kaidan? that Kaidan only deserved to be loved by a femShep?

that is one part of the OP I am not even getting into the whole issue of people cannot change there sexual orientation as being a girl who is bi and who did change mine that whole agument holds no water with me

[Getorex]

BeefoTheBold wrote...

Hmm. An interesting point.

I can see how this might be an issue for some people. I personally have no problem whatsoevever with same-sex romances, but showing a particular character to be bisexual or gay should happen before the third game of a trilogy in some way.

I imagine if you've got a particular feel that a character's sexuality is a certain way before then it would seem immersion breaking to suddenly change it.

This might be a casualty of the very limited role of Kaiden/Ashley in ME2. Perhaps Kaiden was always intended to be bisexual.

I doubt it (that Kaiden was maybe always intended to be bi).  Again, I point to ME1 and how the mere suggestion of HETERO sex caused a bit of a storm.  There is no way they intended from the beginning to make Kaiden (or anyone else) gay or bi in the game.  The whole asari thing is a tweak for the hetero guy players - lots of hetero guys like the whole hot girl-on-girl action thing and havng the asari as monosexual (but hot female in physical form) was a cute way around for them.  It clearly is a setup for getting some guy-centered girl-on-girl without actually being girl-on-girl.  For that you had to wait some years and for the overall culture to shift a bit. 

Bioware was NOT ahead of the overall culture.

[Vigilant111]

wolf99000 wrote...

Vigilant111 wrote...

OP: people cannot TURN in terms of sexual orientation, and there is no such thing as FIRMLY established, it is a game, stuff can change

Are you really saying that guys shouldn't share Kaidan? that guys shouldn't LOVE Kaidan? that Kaidan only deserved to be loved by a femShep?

that is one part of the OP I am not even getting into the whole issue of people cannot change there sexual orientation as being a girl who is bi and who did change mine that whole agument holds no water with me

hey tough break on not being able to romance Ashley, I feel for u:)

[NRieh]

All I read is this: "I don't like that strangers can play the game differently. Take away their choices, so I can be happy again."

Nope, you read it wrong. What [some] people were trying to say is "no ret changes, wtf".

And don't start again about "gays don't shout about it in every corner". I know some, they (usually) really don't. I may deal (already did, as I mentioned) with some personality shifts in ME3 (ME2 times were hard after all, becoming Bi is not the worst thing one can suffer).

What I can't deal with - is that how now some try to ret-change ME1 canon. Which may also vary, but only in part involving Shep's actions and decisions. Other part of the Universe is pre-made, written, described, shown, same for everyone. In that very part Lt. Alenko never ever showed any kind of "special interest" in broshep (or any other male, though had a lot of chances). Never. Ever. Did not happen. Saren did not win, Garrus did not become a specter, Alenko was straight. Even at Horizon in ME2. If not - someone either used hacks or it's just one's OWN HEAD-CANON (which is sacred thing, and which I respect absolutely, but which never can be used as an argument, unfortunately).

As a heavy RPer, I may add, that in any setting and any kind of game player could only operate with his own char, sometines - with self-premade companions, but NEVER with NPC\\GM\\other players caracters\\companions. One could say "I kissed her", one could NEVER say "she kissed me". Could be old-fashioned, but that's how it was. Was nice. Looks like some RPers either forgot or, probably, never heard of such basics. That's where all those talks about "player-sexuality" come from.

[wolf99000]

Getorex wrote...

BeefoTheBold wrote...

Hmm. An interesting point.

I can see how this might be an issue for some people. I personally have no problem whatsoevever with same-sex romances, but showing a particular character to be bisexual or gay should happen before the third game of a trilogy in some way.

I imagine if you've got a particular feel that a character's sexuality is a certain way before then it would seem immersion breaking to suddenly change it.

This might be a casualty of the very limited role of Kaiden/Ashley in ME2. Perhaps Kaiden was always intended to be bisexual.

I doubt it (that Kaiden was maybe always intended to be bi).  Again, I point to ME1 and how the mere suggestion of HETERO sex caused a bit of a storm.  There is no way they intended from the beginning to make Kaiden (or anyone else) gay or bi in the game.  The whole asari thing is a tweak for the hetero guy players - lots of hetero guys like the whole hot girl-on-girl action thing and havng the asari as monosexual (but hot female in physical form) was a cute way around for them.  It clearly is a setup for getting some guy-centered girl-on-girl without actually being girl-on-girl.  For that you had to wait some years and for the overall culture to shift a bit. 

Bioware was NOT ahead of the overall culture.

you are so wrong for a start ashley was meant to be bi in the first game while I am not sure on kaidan if she was it could be a safe bet that he was also as for the whole bioware did it for the whole guys like lesbians stuff I really dont buy that they were just aiming it that way as it would be a pretty low move for them

but I do find it funny that the problem is alway kaidan or steve is gay there is not so much hate on kelly or sam which I thinks says more about the people moaning than the game or bioware

I really dont get the big issue here its your games its not forced on you in anyway you have to do certain things to get them to hit on you

[wolf99000]

Vigilant111 wrote...

wolf99000 wrote...

Vigilant111 wrote...

OP: people cannot TURN in terms of sexual orientation, and there is no such thing as FIRMLY established, it is a game, stuff can change

Are you really saying that guys shouldn't share Kaidan? that guys shouldn't LOVE Kaidan? that Kaidan only deserved to be loved by a femShep?

that is one part of the OP I am not even getting into the whole issue of people cannot change there sexual orientation as being a girl who is bi and who did change mine that whole agument holds no water with me

hey tough break on not being able to romance Ashley, I feel for u:)

i was also hoping for miranda and ashley and maybe even tali as her romance the whole wayit came about in me2 could have also applied to a femshep

[Ibn_Shisha]

Nrieh wrote...

Though why they made one VS bisexual and kept the other one straight seems a little odd to me.

Because there are more then enough optins for ss FemShep already? So adding another one would just be TOO much?..I'd actually say that there are only two for straight one, one of which is Kaidan (may be dead and..well, you know) and another is Garrus(must be imported from ME2, and...well..you know..).

More than enough?  Let's do the math, for all orientations, and including the me2 carryover "romance light" scenes.

ManShep: 9
Ashley
Diana
Jack
Kaidan
Kelly
Liara
Miranda
Steve
Tali

FemShep: 7
Diana
Garrus
Liara
Kaidan
Kelly
Samantha
Thane

So ManShep has 2 more options than FemShep.  (Jacob does not count, as he refuses FemSheps advances - fun to torture him, though...)

Personally, I don't mind the "retcon".  Would I pursue it with a ManShep?  No.  Luckily, no one is forcing you to hook up with Kaidan, (or Allers - shudders) and for me, "canon" is always whatever my Shepard decides on.

Modifié par Ibn_Shisha, 06 juin 2012 - 03:28 .

[AngryFrozenWater]

Binary_Helix 1 wrote...

I felt like it was really out of place. Kaidan was the most mature character in the trilogy and he was firmly established as straight in ME1. Despite whatever he was originally designed for that's not what made the final cut. I felt like the sudden change in ME3 really cheapened him and detracted from his established character.

Mature? Maybe he was in denial earlier? He wouldn't be the first. His acceptance would be very mature. It would also be very mature if others just accepted that. Life can be very simple that way.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 06 juin 2012 - 03:32 .

[BeefoTheBold]

wolf99000 wrote...

Getorex wrote...

BeefoTheBold wrote...

Hmm. An interesting point.

I can see how this might be an issue for some people. I personally have no problem whatsoevever with same-sex romances, but showing a particular character to be bisexual or gay should happen before the third game of a trilogy in some way.

I imagine if you've got a particular feel that a character's sexuality is a certain way before then it would seem immersion breaking to suddenly change it.

This might be a casualty of the very limited role of Kaiden/Ashley in ME2. Perhaps Kaiden was always intended to be bisexual.

I doubt it (that Kaiden was maybe always intended to be bi).  Again, I point to ME1 and how the mere suggestion of HETERO sex caused a bit of a storm.  There is no way they intended from the beginning to make Kaiden (or anyone else) gay or bi in the game.  The whole asari thing is a tweak for the hetero guy players - lots of hetero guys like the whole hot girl-on-girl action thing and havng the asari as monosexual (but hot female in physical form) was a cute way around for them.  It clearly is a setup for getting some guy-centered girl-on-girl without actually being girl-on-girl.  For that you had to wait some years and for the overall culture to shift a bit. 

Bioware was NOT ahead of the overall culture.

you are so wrong for a start ashley was meant to be bi in the first game while I am not sure on kaidan if she was it could be a safe bet that he was also as for the whole bioware did it for the whole guys like lesbians stuff I really dont buy that they were just aiming it that way as it would be a pretty low move for them

but I do find it funny that the problem is alway kaidan or steve is gay there is not so much hate on kelly or sam which I thinks says more about the people moaning than the game or bioware

I really dont get the big issue here its your games its not forced on you in anyway you have to do certain things to get them to hit on you

That's modern life in the U.S. for you I'm afraid. Girl-on-Girl action is "hawt" and Guy-on-Guy action is "icky". But I would say that Bioware, for all our faults with them since the EA acquisition, was very much ahead of its time here.

Remember the lesbian Juhani in Knights of the Old Republic? Or the various same-sex options in Jade Empire (and even a threesome option)?

I don't think it is entirely beyond the realm of possibility that Bioware intended Kaiden to be bisexual given their history. Still, there has definitely been a trend since the acquisition of pushing less boundaries and playing it safer. So who knows?

[wolf99000]

Ibn_Shisha wrote...

Nrieh wrote...

Though why they made one VS bisexual and kept the other one straight seems a little odd to me.

Because there are more then enough optins for ss FemShep already? So adding another one would just be TOO much?..I'd actually say that there are only two for straight one, one of which is Kaidan (may be dead and..well, you know) and another is Garrus(must be imported from ME2, and...well..you know..).

More than enough?  Let's do the math, for all orientations, and including the me2 carryover "romance light" scenes.

ManShep: 9
Ashley
Diana
Jack
Kaidan
Kelly
Liara
Miranda
Steve
Tali

FemShep: 7
Diana
Garrus
Liara
Kaidan
Kelly
Samantha
Thane

So ManShep has 2 more options than FemShep.  (Jacob does not count, as he refuses FemSheps advances - fun to torture him, though...)

Personally, I don't mind the "retcon".  Would I pursue it with a ManShep?  No.  Luckily, no one is forcing you to hook up with Kaidan, (or Allers - shudders) and for me, "canon" is always whatever my Shepard decides on.

that count is another reason why not doing the same for ashley does not make sense if only to even it up a bit

[shepskisaac]

Nrieh wrote...
(or any other male, though had a lot of chances)

Tell us all these chances he had to hook up with a guy in ME1. After all, ME1 is very well know for focusing heavily on male sex appeal and having tons of hot male characters in the cast. Yes yes. ME1 totally wasn't full of female-only strip clubs, female-only hookers, sexy female squadmates joining (Liara) with no sexy male equivalent, jokes and constant references about sexy females and "everybody loves Asari" etc etc.

Nrieh wrote...
Alenko was straight. Even at Horizon in ME2. If not - someone either used hacks or it's just one's OWN HEAD-CANON (which is sacred thing, and which I respect absolutely, but which never can be used as an argument, unfortunately).

"Thinking you were gone, it was like losing a limb!" sounds so straight, yes yes.

[Getorex]

wolf99000 wrote...

Getorex wrote...

BeefoTheBold wrote...

Hmm. An interesting point.

I can see how this might be an issue for some people. I personally have no problem whatsoevever with same-sex romances, but showing a particular character to be bisexual or gay should happen before the third game of a trilogy in some way.

I imagine if you've got a particular feel that a character's sexuality is a certain way before then it would seem immersion breaking to suddenly change it.

This might be a casualty of the very limited role of Kaiden/Ashley in ME2. Perhaps Kaiden was always intended to be bisexual.

I doubt it (that Kaiden was maybe always intended to be bi).  Again, I point to ME1 and how the mere suggestion of HETERO sex caused a bit of a storm.  There is no way they intended from the beginning to make Kaiden (or anyone else) gay or bi in the game.  The whole asari thing is a tweak for the hetero guy players - lots of hetero guys like the whole hot girl-on-girl action thing and havng the asari as monosexual (but hot female in physical form) was a cute way around for them.  It clearly is a setup for getting some guy-centered girl-on-girl without actually being girl-on-girl.  For that you had to wait some years and for the overall culture to shift a bit. 

Bioware was NOT ahead of the overall culture.

you are so wrong for a start ashley was meant to be bi in the first game while I am not sure on kaidan if she was it could be a safe bet that he was also as for the whole bioware did it for the whole guys like lesbians stuff I really dont buy that they were just aiming it that way as it would be a pretty low move for them

but I do find it funny that the problem is alway kaidan or steve is gay there is not so much hate on kelly or sam which I thinks says more about the people moaning than the game or bioware

I really dont get the big issue here its your games its not forced on you in anyway you have to do certain things to get them to hit on you

Where does it say that Ash was supposed to go either way?  The game is the game as it is.  Even if they entertained it they didn't GO with it for a reason:  outrage. 

Sorry, but it is objective fact that even the simple, PG (if that) hetero sex in ME1 caused a furor.  A full-on gay scene would have made a much bigger one.  I already explained the whole asari thing (doesn't quite count and is also heavily aimed at hetero guys with a side serving for gay female players).  Hell, even the homosexual female stuff in the game is done largely with an eye to straight males players (easily the largest part of the gaming population).  
They worked UP to having a broader gay partner thing.  Somewhat limited in ME2 and then wide open in ME3.  That tracks with cultural changes in the country as a whole - on what is considered acceptable and wont cause undue outrage.  At this stage I daresay you would have to present full male frontal nudity and gay sex to cause outside furor (and boycotts, etc).  Things change.  Each game doesn't without official retcon/rewrite.

[T1l]

There's a way of seeing homosexual scenes in ME1 with Kaiden if you edit your save via gibbed; but I agree. Kaiden suddenly waking up one morning and thinking, "Hey, you know what, I'd really like Shepard to put himself in me today." didn't make any sense to me at all.

+1

It felt forced and awkward when he comes on to you and you have to say "we're just friends".
Thanks but no thanks, Major Alenko.

[wolf99000]

Getorex wrote...

wolf99000 wrote...

Getorex wrote...

BeefoTheBold wrote...

Hmm. An interesting point.

I can see how this might be an issue for some people. I personally have no problem whatsoevever with same-sex romances, but showing a particular character to be bisexual or gay should happen before the third game of a trilogy in some way.

I imagine if you've got a particular feel that a character's sexuality is a certain way before then it would seem immersion breaking to suddenly change it.

This might be a casualty of the very limited role of Kaiden/Ashley in ME2. Perhaps Kaiden was always intended to be bisexual.

I doubt it (that Kaiden was maybe always intended to be bi).  Again, I point to ME1 and how the mere suggestion of HETERO sex caused a bit of a storm.  There is no way they intended from the beginning to make Kaiden (or anyone else) gay or bi in the game.  The whole asari thing is a tweak for the hetero guy players - lots of hetero guys like the whole hot girl-on-girl action thing and havng the asari as monosexual (but hot female in physical form) was a cute way around for them.  It clearly is a setup for getting some guy-centered girl-on-girl without actually being girl-on-girl.  For that you had to wait some years and for the overall culture to shift a bit. 

Bioware was NOT ahead of the overall culture.

you are so wrong for a start ashley was meant to be bi in the first game while I am not sure on kaidan if she was it could be a safe bet that he was also as for the whole bioware did it for the whole guys like lesbians stuff I really dont buy that they were just aiming it that way as it would be a pretty low move for them

but I do find it funny that the problem is alway kaidan or steve is gay there is not so much hate on kelly or sam which I thinks says more about the people moaning than the game or bioware

I really dont get the big issue here its your games its not forced on you in anyway you have to do certain things to get them to hit on you

Where does it say that Ash was supposed to go either way?  The game is the game as it is.  Even if they entertained it they didn't GO with it for a reason:  outrage. 

Sorry, but it is objective fact that even the simple, PG (if that) hetero sex in ME1 caused a furor.  A full-on gay scene would have made a much bigger one.  I already explained the whole asari thing (doesn't quite count and is also heavily aimed at hetero guys with a side serving for gay female players).  Hell, even the homosexual female stuff in the game is done largely with an eye to straight males players (easily the largest part of the gaming population).  
They worked UP to having a broader gay partner thing.  Somewhat limited in ME2 and then wide open in ME3.  That tracks with cultural changes in the country as a whole - on what is considered acceptable and wont cause undue outrage.  At this stage I daresay you would have to present full male frontal nudity and gay sex to cause outside furor (and boycotts, etc).  Things change.  Each game doesn't without official retcon/rewrite.

yea and the outrage they got from fox stopped them having gay people in the game ever again did it no it did not people should really give Bioware and EA  credit for having gay/lesbian romances you need to stop looking so deep into things just because you dont get your own way does not make something wrong

I cannot talk on the cultual changes in the USA as I am from Canada and live in the UK all I know is this but the only outrage came from the US those right wing family values groups who wrote letters and said they would boycot EA games if it was not taken out

but kaidan being bi is not a retcon take it from some who did not know about her sexuality till I met a cetain girl in my life it can and does happen that way

Modifié par wolf99000, 06 juin 2012 - 03:47 .

[AlanC9]

BeefoTheBold wrote...
I don't think it is entirely beyond the realm of possibility that Bioware intended Kaiden to be bisexual given their history. 

Didn't someone find the unused audio files in ME1? Or is that just an urban legend?

[Ibn_Shisha]

AlanC9 wrote...

BeefoTheBold wrote...
I don't think it is entirely beyond the realm of possibility that Bioware intended Kaiden to be bisexual given their history. 

Didn't someone find the unused audio files in ME1? Or is that just an urban legend?

Not just audio, video as well, and for Ash.

[Han Shot First]

I wasn't big fan of Kaidan being made bisexual in ME3 either.

It isn't that I have a problem with bi or gay characters, as I thought Bioware did a good job with Cortez and Traynor, just that Kaidan being interested in male Shep in ME3 seemed to be a bit of a retcon. As such it sort of turned him into a character that was Shepardsexual, which I am absolutely against. I think characters should be like real people in that they have defined sexual preferences rather than just being willing with a protagonist of any gender. I would have been just as opposed to Traynor being romanceable by male characters or Cortez being a romance option for Fem Shep.

[AlanC9]

wolf99000 wrote...
but kaidan being bi is not a retcon take it from some who did not know about her sexuality till I met a cetain girl in my life it can and does happen that way 

Indeed it does. An acquaintance of mine has been gay since -- well,  years before I knew him, basically his whole life -- only to start dating a woman a couple of years ago. They're married now.

He says he's still "basically gay." He just makes an exception.

Modifié par AlanC9, 06 juin 2012 - 03:51 .

[Travis2310]

Getorex wrote...

Have to say "odd" fan reaction.  NO one in real life would be even remotely attracted (sexually) to actual living examples of either.

In Tali's case, I BEG TO DIFFER.    

[Ibn_Shisha]

BeefoTheBold wrote...

That's modern life in the U.S. for you I'm afraid. Girl-on-Girl action is "hawt" and Guy-on-Guy action is "icky". But I would say that Bioware, for all our faults with them since the EA acquisition, was very much ahead of its time here.

Remember the lesbian Juhani in Knights of the Old Republic? Or the various same-sex options in Jade Empire (and even a threesome option)?

I don't think it is entirely beyond the realm of possibility that Bioware intended Kaiden to be bisexual given their history. Still, there has definitely been a trend since the acquisition of pushing less boundaries and playing it safer. So who knows?

Wasn't Juhani actually supposed to be bi (perhaps the proto-Liara?), but the FRevan version was slightly less hopelessly bugged than the MRevan version?

[NRieh]

Not just audio, video as well, and for Ash.

This.Is.Not.In.Game. Not in release. No matter what they were going to do - they changed their mind. When you look at the picture - you see the picture, you judge the picture, it does not matter how many different drafts artist made and what was different in first versions.

ME3 has tools to make broshep wear small black dress. It does not make it part of game. And I've seen moded femshep\\ash video. Mods are mods, game is game.