150 réponses à ce sujet

[wolf99000]

Han Shot First wrote...

I wasn't big fan of Kaidan being made bisexual in ME3 either.

It isn't that I have a problem with bi or gay characters, as I thought Bioware did a good job with Cortez and Traynor, just that Kaidan being interested in male Shep in ME3 seemed to be a bit of a retcon. As such it sort of turned him into a character that was Shepardsexual, which I am absolutely against. I think characters should be like real people in that they have defined sexual preferences rather than just being willing with a protagonist of any gender. I would have been just as opposed to Traynor being romanceable by male characters or Cortez being a romance option for Fem Shep.

again people dont have defined sexual perferences people evole and change now the great majoirty do know from day one what they are some dont me being one of them it does not make me any less of a real person the way bioware did it I think makes the kaidan look more like a real person who is for the first time in his life is having those feelings about another guy and it is possible for someone to fall for someone of the same sex and only be interested in that member of there sex

[Reikilea]

I cant believe that people are still fussing over with this. Or that they cant properly learn Kaidan name.

So he is bi. Deal with it.

His relationship with bro Shepard still makes more sence than other relationships in the game.

[Siansonea]

Binary_Helix 1 wrote...

I felt like it was really out of place. Kaidan was the most mature character in the trilogy and he was firmly established as straight in ME1. Despite whatever he was originally designed for that's not what made the final cut. I felt like the sudden change in ME3 really cheapened him and detracted from his established character.

I was bothered by him NOT being bisexual in ME1, so I suggest you get glad in the same pants you got mad in, pal. Too late to change it now anyway. 

[spirosz]

Love these threads!

[KBomb]

It doesn't bother me Kaidan is bisexual, I'll never roleplay him that way and I don't mind that others want to. I do think it's a ridiculous move to make him bisexual. Seemed silly to me, especially since Ashley wasn't made to be bisexual. I have heard so many people say how nicely it was done and I have to disagree. It seemed a little forced and awkward.

They should have concentrated on giving straight femshep more romance options. She totally got the short end of the stick on that deal.

[BeefoTheBold]

Ibn_Shisha wrote...

BeefoTheBold wrote...

That's modern life in the U.S. for you I'm afraid. Girl-on-Girl action is "hawt" and Guy-on-Guy action is "icky". But I would say that Bioware, for all our faults with them since the EA acquisition, was very much ahead of its time here.

Remember the lesbian Juhani in Knights of the Old Republic? Or the various same-sex options in Jade Empire (and even a threesome option)?

I don't think it is entirely beyond the realm of possibility that Bioware intended Kaiden to be bisexual given their history. Still, there has definitely been a trend since the acquisition of pushing less boundaries and playing it safer. So who knows?

Wasn't Juhani actually supposed to be bi (perhaps the proto-Liara?), but the FRevan version was slightly less hopelessly bugged than the MRevan version?

First I've heard of it, but wouldn't surprise me. Even if Juhani was originally intended to be bisexual, it still means that Bioware had a same-sex romance option in their games as early as 2003.

There's a reason why we all fell in love with this company at one point, regardless of how we may feel about the present day incarnation.

[AlanC9]

Nrieh wrote...

Not just audio, video as well, and for Ash.

This.Is.Not.In.Game. Not in release. No matter what they were going to do - they changed their mind. When you look at the picture - you see the picture, you judge the picture, it does not matter how many different drafts artist made and what was different in first versions.

ME3 has tools to make broshep wear small black dress. It does not make it part of game. And I've seen moded femshepash video. Mods are mods, game is game.

Sure. But we were talking about what Bioware originally intended, not what they ended up doing. I don't think anybody's saying that Kaidan's not bi in ME1 because his dialog conditionals are bugged. Though after seeing the way Bio screwed up Leliana's dialog, I could almost believe this happened.

[Siansonea]

spiros9110 wrote...

Love these threads!

Yeah, they're always a hoot. Adding Binary_Helix 1 to my "known trolls" list, that's fer shure.

[Hvlukas]

Nrieh wrote...

All I read is this: "I don't like that strangers can play the game differently. Take away their choices, so I can be happy again."

Nope, you read it wrong. What [some] people were trying to say is "no ret changes, wtf".
[..]
What I can't deal with - is that how now some try to ret-change ME1 canon. [..]
 

Fine. I disagree with you then, that it is a retrofitted change, in that it is entirely heteronormative to assume that because he didn't say he was capable to love men, he must be assumed straight. 

In MY games Kaiden was always gay. Why? Because nothing he actaully says ever in the games conflicts with this view. He mentions Rahna, sure. And that he cared about her. Sure. I too care about my female friends. Quite a bit actually.

It is not a retconning a character to make them bisexual, when his heterosexuality is only an assumption. That little bit is called hetero-normativity.

And yes - you want options taken away from a minority, because you seem to dislike the notion of this minority playing with the character like he was one of "them". The thought of this alone is your grief, not the actual, playable character, whom your female Shepard would never ever be exposed to his capabilities for non-heterosexuality in other people games. You are never going to encounter his non-heterosexuality, never going to hear him utter ugly non-heterosexual words and never have to watch how a non-heterosexual would play the game, but yet insist, that those do not play the character the way you assumed he was, are ruining your game. Ergo: Strip away choices from other's, because you feel ownership over the character to such an extend that the rest of us should play him like you see him.

There. I'm done with the self-unaware homophobia here.

Modifié par Hvlukas, 06 juin 2012 - 04:14 .

[Vigilant111]

Hvlukas wrote...

Fine. I disagree with you then, that it is a retrofitted change, in that it is entirely heteronormative to assume that because he didn't say he was capable to love men, he must be assumed straight. 

In MY games Kaiden was always gay. Why? Because nothing he actaully says ever in the games conflicts with this view. He mentions Rahna, sure. And that he cared about her. Sure. I too care about my female friends. Quite a bit actually.

It is not a retconning a character to make them bisexual, when his heterosexuality is only an assumption. That little bit is called hetero-normativity.

And yes - you want options taken away from a minority, because dislike the notion of this minority to play with the character 
like he was one of "them". The thought of this alone is your grief, not the actual, playable character, whom your female Shepard would never ever be exposed to his capabilities for non-heterosexuality in other people games. You are never going to encounter his non-heterosexuality, never going to hear him utter ugly non-heterosexual words and never have to watch how a non-heterosexual would play the game, but yet insist, that those do not play the character the way you assumed he was, are ruining your game. Ergo: Strip away choices from other's, because you feel ownership over the character to such an extend that the rest of us should play him like you see him.

There. I'm done with the self-unaware homophobia here.

Well said, how did I miss the bolded text? so observative

[NRieh]

Sure. But we were talking about what Bioware originally intended, not what they ended up doing.

Looks like some people do not make any difference between those two. I mean "doing" and "intending". Their intention do not change anything. At all. Sometimes - fortunately, sometimes - may be not (like with endings). And I've seen a lot of "nah they were wanting it this way long ago and there are lines and mods, so it's a ME1 canon as well (now)".

[Vigilant111]

Nrieh wrote...

Sure. But we were talking about what Bioware originally intended, not what they ended up doing.

Looks like some people do not make any difference between those two. I mean "doing" and "intending". Their intention do not change anything. At all. Sometimes - fortunately, sometimes - may be not (like with endings). And I've seen a lot of "nah they were wanting it this way long ago and there are lines and mods, so it's a ME1 canon as well (now)".

Even if there is a retcon, BW is still doing the right thing by responding to petitions and requests, I don't think people should mind if Kaidan is anything, doesn't make him any less of a person, sexual orientation is only a small part of life

[Getorex]

Travis2310 wrote...

Getorex wrote...

Have to say "odd" fan reaction.  NO one in real life would be even remotely attracted (sexually) to actual living examples of either.

In Tali's case, I BEG TO DIFFER.    

Only after they tuned her up in ME2 and then photoshopped a really hot woman's face to be her face.  In ME1 I didn't see a single "draw" in that way for her character.  She was an alien alien, unlike the very human aliens we have in the asari (faux aliens). 

[BeefoTheBold]

Getorex wrote...

Travis2310 wrote...

Getorex wrote...

Have to say "odd" fan reaction.  NO one in real life would be even remotely attracted (sexually) to actual living examples of either.

In Tali's case, I BEG TO DIFFER.    

Only after they tuned her up in ME2 and then photoshopped a really hot woman's face to be her face.  In ME1 I didn't see a single "draw" in that way for her character.  She was an alien alien, unlike the very human aliens we have in the asari (faux aliens). 

Oh I dunno about that. Nobody really knew what Tali looked like in the first couple of games, but she clearly had a very "human female" figure, was brilliant, brave, funny etc. A pretty face is one thing that people find attractive, but there were ample reasons to find her attractive prior to the awful face reveal.

"Humanoid" attraction to beings similar but not quite humans (like elves for instance) has been a staple of Sci-Fi and Fantasy for as long as the genres have existed for the most part.

Modifié par BeefoTheBold, 06 juin 2012 - 04:26 .

[Getorex]

Vigilant111 wrote...

Nrieh wrote...

Sure. But we were talking about what Bioware originally intended, not what they ended up doing.

Looks like some people do not make any difference between those two. I mean "doing" and "intending". Their intention do not change anything. At all. Sometimes - fortunately, sometimes - may be not (like with endings). And I've seen a lot of "nah they were wanting it this way long ago and there are lines and mods, so it's a ME1 canon as well (now)".

Even if there is a retcon, BW is still doing the right thing by responding to petitions and requests, I don't think people should mind if Kaidan is anything, doesn't make him any less of a person, sexual orientation is only a small part of life

It seems to me that most people commenting neg on it are against the suddenness of it.  It would NOT be OK, for instance, if suddenly in ME3 Joker became a full-on gay and came onto male Shepard.  It is immersion breaking, out of character, plain odd, and the like.  If you are going to have homosexual characters then make them that way without setting them up as this way and then suddenly POP they're that way instead. 

It would be jarring and unacceptable if, for instance, EVERY crewmember on the Normandy in ME3 became a potential LI (casual or not) for Shepard.  It would be like, "Woah!  I gotta have the water tanks and food stores checked to see what got spiked in there somewhere!"

[NRieh]

It is not a retconning a character to make them bisexual, when his heterosexuality is only an assumption.

You're kidding? His heterosexuality is based on in-game content. His bi\\homosexuality IS an assumption.

And yes - you want options taken away from a minority

Could you please bring me a quote, where I said this?..

There. I'm done with the self-unaware homophobia here.

It's more like someone (won't name) is "overtolerant" here (sad I don't know right word in english, but in my language it is called "tolerast". You know, same thing as black racism. Not to mention that same someone does not really bothers even to read posts. And just enjoys one's own words.

In MY games Kaiden was always gay.

Good for you, if you were reading instead of just writing - you could've noticed my words about head-canons. Feel free to try again.

[NRieh]

those do not play the character the way you assumed he was, are ruining your game.

It's very hard to ruin my game, I'm very headcannons-proof, you know 8P And I just wanted to remind you, that you play this game with Lt.Cmdr Shepard, therу are no ways you can "play" it with Lt\\Major Alenko, though might be fun, I know..

[Vigilant111]

Getorex wrote...

Vigilant111 wrote...

Nrieh wrote...

Sure. But we were talking about what Bioware originally intended, not what they ended up doing.

Looks like some people do not make any difference between those two. I mean "doing" and "intending". Their intention do not change anything. At all. Sometimes - fortunately, sometimes - may be not (like with endings). And I've seen a lot of "nah they were wanting it this way long ago and there are lines and mods, so it's a ME1 canon as well (now)".

Even if there is a retcon, BW is still doing the right thing by responding to petitions and requests, I don't think people should mind if Kaidan is anything, doesn't make him any less of a person, sexual orientation is only a small part of life

It seems to me that most people commenting neg on it are against the suddenness of it.  It would NOT be OK, for instance, if suddenly in ME3 Joker became a full-on gay and came onto male Shepard.  It is immersion breaking, out of character, plain odd, and the like.  If you are going to have homosexual characters then make them that way without setting them up as this way and then suddenly POP they're that way instead. 

It would be jarring and unacceptable if, for instance, EVERY crewmember on the Normandy in ME3 became a potential LI (casual or not) for Shepard.  It would be like, "Woah!  I gotta have the water tanks and food stores checked to see what got spiked in there somewhere!"

Suddenness?

Tell me this: are gamers offended because Kaidan told Shepard that he is bi, or because they have seen Youtube videos of him in bed with Kaidan?

The subject of sexual orientation need not to be explored if u don't want to touch the subject, it is not like Kaidan suddenly adopted gay stereotypes

[Getorex]

Vigilant111 wrote...

Getorex wrote...

Vigilant111 wrote...

Nrieh wrote...

Sure. But we were talking about what Bioware originally intended, not what they ended up doing.

Looks like some people do not make any difference between those two. I mean "doing" and "intending". Their intention do not change anything. At all. Sometimes - fortunately, sometimes - may be not (like with endings). And I've seen a lot of "nah they were wanting it this way long ago and there are lines and mods, so it's a ME1 canon as well (now)".

Even if there is a retcon, BW is still doing the right thing by responding to petitions and requests, I don't think people should mind if Kaidan is anything, doesn't make him any less of a person, sexual orientation is only a small part of life

It seems to me that most people commenting neg on it are against the suddenness of it.  It would NOT be OK, for instance, if suddenly in ME3 Joker became a full-on gay and came onto male Shepard.  It is immersion breaking, out of character, plain odd, and the like.  If you are going to have homosexual characters then make them that way without setting them up as this way and then suddenly POP they're that way instead. 

It would be jarring and unacceptable if, for instance, EVERY crewmember on the Normandy in ME3 became a potential LI (casual or not) for Shepard.  It would be like, "Woah!  I gotta have the water tanks and food stores checked to see what got spiked in there somewhere!"

Suddenness?

Tell me this: are gamers offended because Kaidan told Shepard that he is bi, or because they have seen Youtube videos of him in bed with Kaidan?

The subject of sexual orientation need not to be explored if u don't want to touch the subject, it is not like Kaidan suddenly adopted gay stereotypes

I can't comment on youtubes cuz I haven't seen the scenes you refer to.  They are inapplicable and irrelevant to me.  Don't care. 

[shepskisaac]

Nrieh wrote...

You're kidding? His heterosexuality is based on in-game content.

His attraction to women is. Whether he's also attracted to men or not is a different thing. Unless he said "I don't like ****", you can't say he's heterosexual based on in-game content.

[Vigilant111]

Getorex wrote...

I can't comment on youtubes cuz I haven't seen the scenes you refer to.  They are inapplicable and irrelevant to me.  Don't care. 

Well, there must have been a leak somewhere, cos how did you know that Kaidan is bi?

I don't think u would mind it if u didn't know about it, its just these forums stirring things up

Okay so u don't care, so why would you care if he is bi or not? cos of artistic vision?

[Ibn_Shisha]

Nrieh wrote...

Not just audio, video as well, and for Ash.

This.Is.Not.In.Game. Not in release. No matter what they were going to do - they changed their mind. When you look at the picture - you see the picture, you judge the picture, it does not matter how many different drafts artist made and what was different in first versions.

ME3 has tools to make broshep wear small black dress. It does not make it part of game. And I've seen moded femshepash video. Mods are mods, game is game.

As I understand it, the audio and video ARE on the disc, but codelocked.  Mod just unlocks them.  So it is in "the game" just not playable without mod.

Modifié par Ibn_Shisha, 06 juin 2012 - 04:45 .

[BeefoTheBold]

Ibn_Shisha wrote...

Nrieh wrote...

Not just audio, video as well, and for Ash.

This.Is.Not.In.Game. Not in release. No matter what they were going to do - they changed their mind. When you look at the picture - you see the picture, you judge the picture, it does not matter how many different drafts artist made and what was different in first versions.

ME3 has tools to make broshep wear small black dress. It does not make it part of game. And I've seen moded femshepash video. Mods are mods, game is game.

As I understand it, the audio and video ARE on the disc, but codelocked.  Mod just unlocks them.  So it is in "the game" just not playable without mod.

I think his point is that if it isn't accessible in the game without a mod, then the developers created it but ultimately decided not to include it which means that they made a conscious choice not to make him bisexual when the game shipped.

(Or, alternatively, they DID intend to include it originally but ran out of time.)

[ScotGaymer]

IsaacShep wrote...

Nrieh wrote...

You're kidding? His heterosexuality is based on in-game content.

His attraction to women is. Whether he's also attracted to men or not is a different thing. Unless he said "I don't like ****", you can't say he's heterosexual based on in-game content.

You aren't going to get thru to this person Isaac. His/her heteronormative priviledge is getting in the way, and he/she is completely unwilling to entertain any other point of view.

For myself I am going to take Word of God on this subject. In other words what the writers have said about the matter. Kaidan is bisexual, has always been bisexual, and because of the kind of person he was he never had the impetus to express his attraction to Shepard beyond some idle flirting.
If I remember correctly FemShep has to actively pursue him to get a romance outta him (whereas Liara and Ashley begin cat fighting over ManShep almost immediately eugh) - it was just the kind of person he is. He also probably thought there would be plenty of time to broach the subject in the future.

If people can't accept a viewpoint or state of affairs that is not entirely heteronormative then that is their problem; not ours, or the developers. And it certainly does not render the romance "nonsensical" or anything like that.

[BeefoTheBold]

Double Post

Modifié par BeefoTheBold, 06 juin 2012 - 04:48 .