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[Vormaerin]

hussey 92 wrote...

Vormaerin wrote...


Yeah, I know the excuse.  But it doesn't cut it.  Its incredibly rare in the real world that people forget the man just because of the role. 

It's not rare at all.  If I get stopped by a black police officer, my first reaction isn't going to be "omg your a black guy!"  It's going to be "what does this police officer want?"

There are plenty of surface dwarfs in Fereldan so I'm sure Fereldans won't lose there minds seeing a dwarf.

Presumably, this is true because you aren't unduly prejudiced.

Besides, the dwarf isn't the worst example of NPC lack of reaction.   Its the worst example of lack of PC customizing.

The worst example of the NPC reaction is the elves.   Elves are second class citizens and routinely disrespected.  Poeple are no more going to ignore that than Loghain ignored the Orlesian origin of the Wardens.

If I sent a black US Marshal to the old South, you can bet he wouldn't have been treated as well as a white US Marshal.

You can tell me all you want that the Wardens are mysteriously super respected, but it doesn't hold water.  They were outlawed until just recently, for one thing.  And then outlawed again.   Yet everyone is super nice to the knife ear murderer because he's part of the outlaw hero group?

And, yes, the issue of Mage PCs is also a problem.  But not germane to this thread. 

brushyourteeth wrote...

But you're obviously too angry to be interested in my opinion so I'll stop there.

Err, if you say so. 

Modifié par Vormaerin, 08 juin 2012 - 04:54 .

[wsandista]

Vormaerin wrote...

And, yes, the issue of Mage PCs is also a problem.  But not germane to this thread. 

Yes it is. You say you have a problem with NPCs not mentioning the PCs elven or dwarf background, and say you don't want to have the racial options if they are not acknowledged. That is fair enough, but by that standard, the option to play a mage should also be off-limits unless NPCs react accordingly to a mage. Is that what you want?

[Vormaerin]

wsandista wrote...

Vormaerin wrote...

And, yes, the issue of Mage PCs is also a problem.  But not germane to this thread. 

Yes it is. You say you have a problem with NPCs not mentioning the PCs elven or dwarf background, and say you don't want to have the racial options if they are not acknowledged. That is fair enough, but by that standard, the option to play a mage should also be off-limits unless NPCs react accordingly to a mage. Is that what you want?

If the choice is between blowing up the gameworld and story or not being able to play a mage, then, yes, I'd take not playing a mage.   Ideally, they'd write the dialogues and quests to account for the PC being a mage, a dwarf, or whatever.

But playing a renegade mage who chats with Templars and generally wanders the streets freely completely undercuts the story.  How am I supposed it believe its so awful for everyone else, when the templars are practically buying me beer and worshipping at my feet?

[wsandista]

Vormaerin wrote...

wsandista wrote...

Vormaerin wrote...

And, yes, the issue of Mage PCs is also a problem.  But not germane to this thread. 

Yes it is. You say you have a problem with NPCs not mentioning the PCs elven or dwarf background, and say you don't want to have the racial options if they are not acknowledged. That is fair enough, but by that standard, the option to play a mage should also be off-limits unless NPCs react accordingly to a mage. Is that what you want?

If the choice is between blowing up the gameworld and story or not being able to play a mage, then, yes, I'd take not playing a mage.   Ideally, they'd write the dialogues and quests to account for the PC being a mage, a dwarf, or whatever.

Well at least you are being consistent. I agree, situations in both games should've taken the PC's background into consideration. The best solution would be to have divergent dialogues deepening on background, rather than homogenizing PCs.

But playing a renegade mage who chats with Templars and generally wanders the streets freely completely undercuts the story.  How am I supposed it believe its so awful for everyone else, when the templars are practically buying me beer and worshipping at my feet?

Can you clarify this statement? I can't tell if this is a critique of the design flaws in dialogue options or a rationalization of a pro-Templar mage.

[Vormaerin]

wsandista wrote...

Can you clarify this statement? I can't tell if this is a critique of the design flaws in dialogue options or a rationalization of a pro-Templar mage.

Sorry, it is intended to be a critique of the lack of reaction from the world.  As you know, we have opposite views on how to create immersion.  You want unrestricted ability to internalize your character, while I want the maximized amount of external input to play off of.

If I can't tell whether I'm playing my elf or my orc without looking at the character, I consider that a failure of immersion.


Mages in DA have a problem.  The lore is pretty clear in both versions, yet the PC does not feel any of the effects of it.  A PC mage should have to be in Wynne's position  (Circle member with authorization to travel) or be persecuted.  Otherwise, the entire story explodes.   How am I supposed to believe that the Templars are total black hats when they are never anything but polite and respectful to me?

You can have a party with two blood mages and an abomination openly interacting with the templars and none of them bat an eye.

Pro Templar mage PCs are surprisingly reasonable, given how little personal evidence you'd have that the templars are meanieheads.    You see blood mages all over the place, but no hassles from the templars.

[hussey 92]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

If I get stopped by a black police officer, my first reaction isn't going to be "omg your a black guy!" It's going to be "what does this police officer want?"

But you did notice it was a black police officer.

I'm not blind

[PsychoBlonde]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

If I get stopped by a black police officer, my first reaction isn't going to be "omg your a black guy!" It's going to be "what does this police officer want?"

But you did notice it was a black police officer.

EDIT: To be serious, I do feel that the lack of reactivity due to player origin and player race is a valid complaint for DAO, personally.

You'd notice it if he had red paint all over his face, too.  Or if he was wearing lipstick and eyeshadow.  Or talked like Foghorn Leghorn.  That in no way indicates that you're somehow racist against red paint, lipstick, eyeshadow, or talking roosters.

Anyway, yeah, it did feel sometimes--make that, often--in DA:O that people only reacted to your race/origin/whatever when it was pretty much irrelevant, and very frequently when you would have thought it'd be relevant (such as, in Orzammar, or almost anywhere if you were a mage), instead, everyone makes a big deal about how you're a Grey Warden as if they can TELL just by LOOKING at you.

You could almost hear the dev sitting there saying "this is main plot stuff, so it revolves around the Grey Wardening, oh, this other stuff is irrelevant side drivel, let's add some racism to spice it up a bit".

[Allan Schumacher]

You'd notice it if he had red paint all over his face, too. Or if he was wearing lipstick and eyeshadow. Or talked like Foghorn Leghorn. That in no way indicates that you're somehow racist against red paint, lipstick, eyeshadow, or talking roosters.

Just to be clear, I don't consider racial awareness to be racism. For good or ill, though, it's what many/most humans do. Myself included.  In any case, it seems I shouldn't have made the comment regardless and certainly don't mean stir the pot regarding this issue.

This relates back to the idea that reactivity to the player race not being fleshed out well enough is as good of a concern as any.

I know why it doesn't happen that way, but it's still an open forum for people to talk about issues they find with the games, regardless of whether or not they recognize that it's probably not going to be addressed before other issues.

Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 08 juin 2012 - 07:21 .

[brushyourteeth]

More reactivity in a game is great, but I never felt like DA:O did a bad job of acknowledging your racial choices. Rude characters called you "dwarf" or "elf", dwarves responded to you being casteless or reacted to your nobility. City elves definitely noticed that you were Dalish, and mages are pretty common in the Grey Wardens. In most situations it was pretty obvious who the Wardens were because Orzammar, Redcliffe, the Circle Tower, and the Dalish Camp don't see too many visitors so your merry band of misfits kind of stood out. Having been exiled could have only served to make the order feel more removed and legendary. Sure, there was a bounty on them, but there was also a Blight - and only the desperate or greedy would actually want to turn them in. I found that just around the time I started to wonder if the world had forgotten I was a dwarf, someone came along and questioned me about it.

Room for improvement definitely, but no reason to throw out the option of multiple origins altogether, in my opinion.

**EDIT** I also kind of got the impression from my conversation with Jory that only the completely dim-witted ever asked a near stranger about his/her race or (female) gender. It might have been just my interpretation, but I gathered that talking about such things (unless your intention was to be offensive) was kind of taboo.

Modifié par brushyourteeth, 08 juin 2012 - 04:23 .

[Allan Schumacher]

**EDIT** I also kind of got the impression from my conversation with Jory that only the completely dim-witted ever asked a near stranger about his/her race or (female) gender. It might have been just my interpretation, but I gathered that talking about such things (unless your intention was to be offensive) was kind of taboo.

Fair point.

[KotorEffect3]

Melca36 wrote...

JasonPogo wrote...

 I have to say of all the lore and things that David and Bioware have made for this game the Dwarves are by far my fav.  The opening for both the Dwarf Nobel and Commoner were some of the best parts of DAO for me.

Now in DA3 it would fit great to be a Dwarf.  The whole story is about the mages and all that jazz.  Well who better to throw into that mix then a Dwarf.  They are strong to magic so they could be the Templars champion cutting down the uppity mages.  Or as someone who never had much to fear from mages they could fight for those they feel are oppresed for nothing.  I know you can't be a mage but so what that us still loads better than being generic human number 2000 in an RPG.

Only 5% of Origins players played dwarves according to the stats. I know it sucks but they want the game to sell so I doubt the protagonist will be a dwarf.

I imagine though there were some players like me who didn't play as dwarves at first (early  on I usualy played as Human Nobles or City Elves) but once I tried out the dwarven origins they really grew on me and now dwarves are my favorite race to play in the game and to be honest I find playing as a Cousland kind of boring in comparison.

Modifié par KotorEffect3, 08 juin 2012 - 10:11 .

[Ryzaki]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

**EDIT** I also kind of got the impression from my conversation with Jory that only the completely dim-witted ever asked a near stranger about his/her race or (female) gender. It might have been just my interpretation, but I gathered that talking about such things (unless your intention was to be offensive) was kind of taboo.

Fair point.

Even Murdock in DAO says something along the lines of "I didn't know they made woman grey wardens...uh don't take me for an ingrate or nothing though." to the FHN.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 08 juin 2012 - 10:35 .

[dragonflight288]

And many characters throughout comment on Dwarves.

When we arrive in Lothering, a farmer near the beginning asks if we're a trader and working with another merchant. We can outright tell him that not every dwarf is a merchant, and he doesn't believe it. He sarcastically comments that his aunt is a Captain of the Chevalier's.

Jory says he didn't know dwarves could be wardens since every dwarf he ever met were smiths in the castle. The child on the bridge in Lothering can comment that he thought all dwarves were really greedy if we help him, so he's kind of surprised we're not (if we help him.)

There's lots of little things while playing a dwarf (the Dalish call us by dreg'enlen more than they do Warden) that comment on our race instead of our station.

[WardenWade]

I would love to play a dwarf again in DA3, as well as an elf, human or kossith. And to have (greater?) recognition of that fact would be excellent.

[FaWa]

instead of talking about black police officers can we please get an answer as to if there will be dwarven PCs in DA3? If there are I will buy enough copies to make it worth your while...