497 réponses à ce sujet

[LULZferBAKON]

Look at Vanguards.
Good at close range, absolutely useless at medium to long range. Wipes the floor with groups of common enemys, does poor damage to boss units. Draws a ton of aggro, but has a ton of survivability in the most hellish conditions.

Infiltrators should be the polar opposite of that, with Soldiers an inbetween.

[SanguineRose]

Gockey wrote...

SanguineRose wrote...

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

The infiltrator is not like the "caster classes" at all, because those classes are visible at all times. Okay, the infiltrator is the best at dealing damage, fine. Should it also be the best at AVOIDING damage. Being the best at both is what makes the infiltrator overpowered.

see, you're just leaving out the "At range" part.

Huh?  I didn't realize tac cloak didnt work at less than a 10m distance?  And I swear I saw that GI with a GPS X...

In order to do any damage akin to a sniper variant Infiltrator, a GI needs to charge his weapon. This means he will not be in cover. Anything within 15 meters of him will probably spot him, and anything that saw him before he cloaked(as if he's charging, he needed to come out of cover) are still firing on him.

Lose the sarcasm.

[DiebytheSword]

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

The infiltrator is not like the "caster classes" at all, because those classes are visible at all times. Okay, the infiltrator is the best at dealing damage, fine. Should it also be the best at AVOIDING damage. Being the best at both is what makes the infiltrator overpowered.

You're right of course, but for the wrong reason.  The classes I mentioned have huge AOE attacks, where the sniper hits only one target (or in a straight line with piercing).   The Krysae gives TC an AOE attack, which is why the Krysae, not the TC needs nerfing.

And I've already talked about how the TC makes you invisible only if the haven't spotted you.  You can't use it to get out of jail free, you will get out of jail, but at a price.  As you said before, that's true of all classes, all classes can sit on their ass far away from the action and do something that makes their allies do the work.  Its bad co-op play, not a call for nerfing; that's just vindictive and silly.

[Gockey]

Blind2Society wrote...

"Infiltrators are taking all the kills/points. Nerf them so there's more for me."

/thread

Forgot revives, medals, grenades!, E-peen, your mother's virtue and the kitchen sink too. 

SanguineRose wrote...

Gockey wrote...

SanguineRose wrote...

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

The infiltrator is not like the "caster classes" at all, because those classes are visible at all times. Okay, the infiltrator is the best at dealing damage, fine. Should it also be the best at AVOIDING damage. Being the best at both is what makes the infiltrator overpowered.

see, you're just leaving out the "At range" part.

Huh?  I didn't realize tac cloak didnt work at less than a 10m distance?  And I swear I saw that GI with a GPS X...

In order to do any damage akin to a sniper variant Infiltrator, a GI needs to charge his weapon. This means he will not be in cover. Anything within 15 meters of him will probably spot him, and anything that saw him before he cloaked(as if he's charging, he needed to come out of cover) are still firing on him.

Lose the sarcasm.

 

But it's such a fun way to make a point. So I think not. 

 If you didn't like the GPS, then sub in a claymore.  Your trying to create a straw man argument.   As for the cloak...   You stated that the Infitrator is only the best at avoiding damage at range.  That's just flat out wrong.  You can always drp in cover, fire a cloak and away you go.  Heaven forbid you have to roll into cover or something first.


Cloak is the best mitigation on gold at any range.

Modifié par Gockey, 06 juin 2012 - 08:34 .

[heybigmoney]

Fox-snipe wrote...

heybigmoney wrote...

Dmg nerf wouldn't be enough. It doesn't address the problem of infiltrators never pulling aggro and using teammates as decoys. A longer cooldown as well would force them to fight enemies outside of cloak somewhat alleviating the problem.

I'm sick of this argument.  I'd like to see actual videos of it even happening (multiple, no accendotal evidence).

Currently Cloak does very litle to help us escape.  Even before it got ruined enemies kept firing in your general direction if you activated Cloak (as they should).  they should, however, ignore someone who Cloaked out-of-sight (they currently do not).

A good sniper will not be Cloaked for more than a few seconds.  The only exceptions to this are objectives, revives, and those trying to close the distance with a target (shotgunners, who are taking a big risk).

Finally, the minimal cooldown is to make an Infiltrator effective at using snipers.  You know, our primary weapon.

You can't think about it solely from an infiltrators point of view.  I agree, cloak does not guarantee safety and enemies will still attack you at times.  The problem is that you are never a prioritized target vs teammates who do not have tactical cloak.

"A good sniper will not be cloaked for more than a few seconds."

The reason for this is to maximize cloak's dmg bonuses.  You honestly think its balanced that one class essentially has 140% dmg bonuses 100% of the time?

[Blind2Society]

Gockey wrote...

Blind2Society wrote...

"Infiltrators are taking all the kills/points. Nerf them so there's more for me."

/thread

Forgot revives, medals, grenades!, E-peen, your mother's virtue and the kitchen sink too. 

And objectives as well...

[CmnDwnWrkn]

DiebytheSword wrote...

Gockey wrote...

It's not beside the point.  You created that scenario to artificially strengthen your argument.  I'm not trying to be hostile at all, I'm just saying that if your any good at an infiltrator, you won't find yourself in that position. Because I compltely disagree that tac cloak buys you an extra half second when a hunter is next to you.  It buys you a full get out of jail free card.  Arguing otherwise means that person is bad.  

You can literally gel in a circle of primes, hunters and pyros (lions, tigers and bears!) and still break away safely.  Reliably.  Ergo you'll never find yourself in a situation you can't escape unless cloak is on CD and you have no power free and are in a corner.  Then your fubared like everyone else =)

Stardusk wrote...

Let's face it people. There is no solution. Infiltrators are OP. But they should not get nerfed. They are either OP, or useless but you can't have anything inbetween. I never play Infiltrators but I'd rather have an OP class than an useless one.

 

Lol you always try to be so PC and avoid  fanning the flames :innocent:  Not criticizing just noting in passing.

I agree strongly with Stardusk on this, there is no way to make the Infiltrator less OP without breaking it and making it useless, they are walking a fine line as it is.

That said, TC does not work if you throw it on while the enemy sees you.  I have been hand cannoned to death by Phantoms while in cloak, running away after the situation I illustrated.  Call me a bad player all you like, you can be spotted with the cloak on, proximity and when you threw it on deteremine when you can be seen with it.  Sure I can cloak around a corner and walk into a circle of primes, but I will always get mauled if I try to pull that off when my position has already been overrun.

You write this in passing like it isn't a big deal, LOL.  The ability to walk right through hordes of powerful enemies without them noticing, even if it only works some of the time, is a HUGE bonus.  Add to that a massive sniper rifle damage bonus and a cache of rifles that are arguably OP even without cloak, and you have a hugely-OP class.

[Ravenmyste]

DNC Protoman wrote...

IAMREALITY wrote...

Tactical Cloak is fine. God I hope bioware doesn't give in to these stupid ****in ideas.

nope

yep it is you show no proof of it being  oped in any thing just like anyone in this thread and that goes for me as well  untill prtoof is actually taken now on the other hand that new sniper riffle needs a good nerfing { and i am normally againts it but when you see on silver and gold 2 engineers out scoring a infilt using the same rank of x then their isa there a problem}

Modifié par Ravenmyste, 06 juin 2012 - 08:34 .

[Stardusk]

DiebytheSword wrote...

Gockey wrote...

It's not beside the point.  You created that scenario to artificially strengthen your argument.  I'm not trying to be hostile at all, I'm just saying that if your any good at an infiltrator, you won't find yourself in that position. Because I compltely disagree that tac cloak buys you an extra half second when a hunter is next to you.  It buys you a full get out of jail free card.  Arguing otherwise means that person is bad.  

You can literally gel in a circle of primes, hunters and pyros (lions, tigers and bears!) and still break away safely.  Reliably.  Ergo you'll never find yourself in a situation you can't escape unless cloak is on CD and you have no power free and are in a corner.  Then your fubared like everyone else =)

Stardusk wrote...

Let's face it people. There is no solution. Infiltrators are OP. But they should not get nerfed. They are either OP, or useless but you can't have anything inbetween. I never play Infiltrators but I'd rather have an OP class than an useless one.

 

Lol you always try to be so PC and avoid  fanning the flames :innocent:  Not criticizing just noting in passing.

I agree strongly with Stardusk on this, there is no way to make the Infiltrator less OP without breaking it and making it useless, they are walking a fine line as it is.

That said, TC does not work if you throw it on while the enemy sees you.  I have been hand cannoned to death by Phantoms while in cloak, running away after the situation I illustrated.  Call me a bad player all you like, you can be spotted with the cloak on, proximity and when you threw it on deteremine when you can be seen with it.  Sure I can cloak around a corner and walk into a circle of primes, but I will always get mauled if I try to pull that off when my position has already been overrun.

Which is why this debate is pointless. Non-Infiltrators just need to do their best and not compare themselves to Infiltrators because the Infiltrator is not comparable to anything else. For example, if an Infiltrator gets a score of 120k and you second him with a Krogan Soldier at 90k, I'd say you did at least as good a job as him. Just the way it is.

[MissMinaethiel]

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

The infiltrator is not like the "caster classes" at all, because those classes are visible at all times. Okay, the infiltrator is the best at dealing damage, fine. Should it also be the best at AVOIDING damage. Being the best at both is what makes the infiltrator overpowered.

Yup, caster classes are visible at all times and are best at dealing with large knots of enemies. They're squishy because their abilities are meant for offensive combat. Soldiers have their whole beings based on dealing damage. What does the Infiltrator have? A few powers that assist in killing things but ARE NOT actively meant for killing. What is the point of toting a sniper for the damage bonus only to get creamed while fighting because your powers aren't meant for more than temporary defense?

Infiltrators are the middle of soldiers and casters. Their powers are meant to assist deal heavy damage; not for killing things at will (that's why Infils carry big guns). Does nyone use ED as their primary weapon? Do you spam grenades as your main thing? Infils rely on dealing huge hits to take threats down fast because their powers do not compensate. consequences for failing to take down threats are huge, cloak or not.

Can we quickscope on consoles? Sure. Is it feasable in a tight situation? No because stunlock is always there in one form or another.

Sorry if that seems convoluted. I can think of what I mean in my head but writing it down clearly is a whole different challenge.

[capn233]

XxTaLoNxX wrote...
In fact look at all the Gold speed run records. Those SHOULD be going to heavy biotic/tech teams working in tandem, but they aren't. The fastest Gold runs now are being cleared by Infiltrators running around like chickens with their heads cut off killing anything that moves without a second glance.

That's NOT balance.

Not to mention all the Nerfducks crying for Krysae and Reegar nerfs are using Infiltrators as their SOLE argument that there is a problem with those weapons. When in fact the weapons are fine. Infiltrators ARE NOT.

I recall a DA run with Reegars.

The last bit is incorrect, but you basically just ignore anyone who states the reasons why it is easily proved as incorrect.

Hell, if you have any sense and can read then you can tell the Krysae is unbalanced just from the stats alone.

[Torguemada]

Gockey wrote...

Torguemada wrote...

And here'ss the reall reason why all the baddies cry for infiltrator ners, cos their too damm bad to outscore them.

In truth infiltrators only top the board when the one playing them is better then the rest of the team, just like it is with all classes.

 

Not a chance.  If you aren't scoring higher with an infiltrator (escpecially with this Krysae cannon) then your doing it wrong.  

Ofcource i top the board when i happen to play infiltrator, but i do that with the other classes too(even against krysae carrying infltrators)
Maybe you should just L2P, instead of crying for nerfs in the forums.

[DiebytheSword]

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

You write this in passing like it isn't a big deal, LOL.  The ability to walk right through hordes of powerful enemies without them noticing, even if it only works some of the time, is a HUGE bonus.  Add to that a massive sniper rifle damage bonus and a cache of rifles that are arguably OP even without cloak, and you have a hugely-OP class.

You highlight that like its a reason for nerfing.  Here's your homework for tonight.  Go grab a big bad, OP as a nuke in a closet Infiltrator, fire up a gold game, get in a circle of Primes, Pyros, Hunters, Marauders, Phantoms, or whatever you think the Infiltrator can go god mode in, and fire a shot.

Tell me how you make out with that OP damage bonus.

[SanguineRose]

Alright, here's a great solution: Nerf TC. You know what'll happen? You'll ask that we all get buffs because suddenly there's nobody to pick your asses up when things go south.

Leaving it as it is maintains the balance of power. all those who want it nerfed intend to disrupt it just because an infiltrator has a higher score, which effectively means NOTHING. AT. ALL.

[BjornDaDwarf]

DiebytheSword wrote...

You must be a console player.  You cannot quick scope meaningfully on PC.  Autoaim is the sin there, and all classes have that on the consoles.  At level 20 on gold, you have a max of three shots in the back from a Geth Hunter, he's probably already hit you twice while in cooldown, you can't cloak and melee him back.  The other classes I mentioned have synch kills, that WILL fire on gold if you tried to melee, cloak or not.

I don't have a GI or MQI, but I can say that a Proximity mine better kill your problem right there, right then or you are dead.  The only ting you can really do is make distance and try again from there, unless you have a sidearm, or are playing a shotgun infiltrator (which . . . shame on you, you are gaming the system).  Likewise, ED will not kill a full health enemy, you will be killed if you attempt to stand your ground, and possibly mowed down as you move away.

These are not straw man arguments, these are real issues, tunnel vision and lack of close range ability (unless you are speced for melee) make my arguments very valid.

I am a console player, but I learned about quickscoping from a PC ME3 player.  Your scope will always focus on where your reticle is.  Right Click, followed by an immediate Left Click should work just as well as Left Trigger followed by Right Trigger on Console, as long as the reticle is on your target. 

Here's a thread, and videos, by a PC player explaining how they use Quicksoping in ME3.  So your PC is just as quickscoping dirty as my console is .

ED, ProxMine and Grenades will all stagger an enemy, so as long as you aren't surrounded by multiple enemies who are outside of the range of those AoE attacks, you're going to stagger everything in the area.  Those attacks don't have to kill the enemy that surprised you, they only have to give you a chance to either escape, or react accurately with your rifle by quickscoping.  I do this all the time with an SI Valiant wielder.  

And I stand by the straw man argument, the things you described are capable of being handled by a majority, if not all, of the Infiltrator classes given the tools at their disposal (on all 3 platforms).

If you get snuck up on by a Brute, Atlas or Banshee, I'd say you need to take a look around a little more often.  Or turn your volume up to hear them. 

Modifié par BjornDaDwarf, 06 juin 2012 - 08:39 .

[CroGamer002]

Stop with demanding nerfs!

[quorkszz]

Stardusk wrote...

Let's face it people. There is no solution. Infiltrators are OP. But they should not get nerfed. They are either OP, or useless but you can't have anything inbetween. I never play Infiltrators but I'd rather have an OP class than an useless one.

Fan the flames! Why so cool and nonchalant?
Also, frost maiden. Shes awesome! I wish I had a talon though.

[DiebytheSword]

Stardusk wrote...

DiebytheSword wrote...

Gockey wrote...

It's not beside the point.  You created that scenario to artificially strengthen your argument.  I'm not trying to be hostile at all, I'm just saying that if your any good at an infiltrator, you won't find yourself in that position. Because I compltely disagree that tac cloak buys you an extra half second when a hunter is next to you.  It buys you a full get out of jail free card.  Arguing otherwise means that person is bad.  

You can literally gel in a circle of primes, hunters and pyros (lions, tigers and bears!) and still break away safely.  Reliably.  Ergo you'll never find yourself in a situation you can't escape unless cloak is on CD and you have no power free and are in a corner.  Then your fubared like everyone else =)

Stardusk wrote...

Let's face it people. There is no solution. Infiltrators are OP. But they should not get nerfed. They are either OP, or useless but you can't have anything inbetween. I never play Infiltrators but I'd rather have an OP class than an useless one.

 

Lol you always try to be so PC and avoid  fanning the flames :innocent:  Not criticizing just noting in passing.

I agree strongly with Stardusk on this, there is no way to make the Infiltrator less OP without breaking it and making it useless, they are walking a fine line as it is.

That said, TC does not work if you throw it on while the enemy sees you.  I have been hand cannoned to death by Phantoms while in cloak, running away after the situation I illustrated.  Call me a bad player all you like, you can be spotted with the cloak on, proximity and when you threw it on deteremine when you can be seen with it.  Sure I can cloak around a corner and walk into a circle of primes, but I will always get mauled if I try to pull that off when my position has already been overrun.

Which is why this debate is pointless. Non-Infiltrators just need to do their best and not compare themselves to Infiltrators because the Infiltrator is not comparable to anything else. For example, if an Infiltrator gets a score of 120k and you second him with a Krogan Soldier at 90k, I'd say you did at least as good a job as him. Just the way it is.

Again, I 100% agree with this.  I've topped infiltrators a few times with AOE spam, tech and biotic, but I never get more than 100K or 110K.  I've hit 160k with Infiltrator.  Take this away and infiltrators will be scoring 30k, personal garauntee.

[Torguemada]

SanguineRose wrote...
Leaving it as it is maintains the balance of power. all those who want it nerfed intend to disrupt it just because an infiltrator has a higher score, which effectively means NOTHING. AT. ALL.

Well it does mean that the infiltrator was a better player then them, but they can't admid that so they have to will the forum with crying topics.

[SanguineRose]

Torguemada wrote...

SanguineRose wrote...
Leaving it as it is maintains the balance of power. all those who want it nerfed intend to disrupt it just because an infiltrator has a higher score, which effectively means NOTHING. AT. ALL.

Well it does mean that the infiltrator was a better player then them, but they can't admid that so they have to will the forum with crying topics.

Better or not is irrelevant in a team-oriented, co-op, us-vs-computer controlled enemies game.

And I say again, I outscore Infiltrators all the time. Even GPS GIs. If there's any real problem, it's that the nerf-callers need to step their game up.

[Gockey]

capn233 wrote...

Hell, if you have any sense and can read then you can tell the Krysae is unbalanced just from the stats alone.

See I disagree with that. Having run with the Krysae as Infi, Soldier, and Engi, I don't have a problem with the damage per shot.  And the stats don't tell me anything except that it has a average clip size, good damage, great weight for the damage and clip, and an AoE.

It doesn't tell me that it isn't an instant hitscan, has no armor pen, and receieves no headshot bonus.
 
That's all irrelevant though.  The OP factor is the radius of the shot, the fact that the bullets have magic proximity sensors in them, guarantee a stagger, and tactical cloak.

Nerf tac cloak, reduce the radius a bit, and make it so you have to aim and the guns damage is a non issue.

[N7 Whiskey]

I hate to say this because I really love the Human Infiltrators, but the OP is right though pretty harsh.  Seems that weapon balancing to this point has been dictated by the Infiltrators max damage potential and perhaps rightly so.  However, 90% to 15% is extremely harsh IMO, perhaps make the rank 4 damage buff 15% for a total of 55% while cloaked, still granting the 40% for sniper rifles at rank 6. 

To be clear, I do love the Infitrators, especially when I'm NOT using them because I tend to play melee-centric builds.  That means I really appreciate the Overwatch when I get myself into not so easily managed situations. 

[heybigmoney]

Stardusk wrote...

DiebytheSword wrote...

Gockey wrote...

It's not beside the point.  You created that scenario to artificially strengthen your argument.  I'm not trying to be hostile at all, I'm just saying that if your any good at an infiltrator, you won't find yourself in that position. Because I compltely disagree that tac cloak buys you an extra half second when a hunter is next to you.  It buys you a full get out of jail free card.  Arguing otherwise means that person is bad.  

You can literally gel in a circle of primes, hunters and pyros (lions, tigers and bears!) and still break away safely.  Reliably.  Ergo you'll never find yourself in a situation you can't escape unless cloak is on CD and you have no power free and are in a corner.  Then your fubared like everyone else =)

Stardusk wrote...

Let's face it people. There is no solution. Infiltrators are OP. But they should not get nerfed. They are either OP, or useless but you can't have anything inbetween. I never play Infiltrators but I'd rather have an OP class than an useless one.

 

Lol you always try to be so PC and avoid  fanning the flames :innocent:  Not criticizing just noting in passing.

I agree strongly with Stardusk on this, there is no way to make the Infiltrator less OP without breaking it and making it useless, they are walking a fine line as it is.

That said, TC does not work if you throw it on while the enemy sees you.  I have been hand cannoned to death by Phantoms while in cloak, running away after the situation I illustrated.  Call me a bad player all you like, you can be spotted with the cloak on, proximity and when you threw it on deteremine when you can be seen with it.  Sure I can cloak around a corner and walk into a circle of primes, but I will always get mauled if I try to pull that off when my position has already been overrun.

Which is why this debate is pointless. Non-Infiltrators just need to do their best and not compare themselves to Infiltrators because the Infiltrator is not comparable to anything else. For example, if an Infiltrator gets a score of 120k and you second him with a Krogan Soldier at 90k, I'd say you did at least as good a job as him. Just the way it is.

This is nonsense.  There are plenty of ways to tone down infiltrators without them loosing effectiveness.  Even if they do remain the most powerful class in the game post nerfs it will still promote class diversity.

Asari adept used to dominate gold lobbies.  They are far more scarce now then 3 months ago despite still being incredibly powerful.

[Immortal Strife]

People have presented some outlandish ideas that would utterly destroy the infiltrator class. I hope my suggestion is not such. For Tactical Cloak reduce the base cloak damage by 10%, and reduce the 4th evolution of TC damage by 10%, lastly increase the minimum cooldown to 4 seconds. This is a major nerf I know and I highly doubt Bioware would be so punishing.

With my suggestion all cloak weapon damage would be 70% and snipers around 100% (remember snipers adds to the base damage) this would essential isolate the infiltrator into a sniper role. The 70% all purpose damage would actually be much less than the soldiers AR 70% due to power duration. My ideas basically retires the infiltrator as the best weapon class, but keeps it as the best sniper.

Modifié par Immortal Strife, 06 juin 2012 - 08:51 .