497 réponses à ce sujet

[robarcool]

Edit: Post removed. User banned 24 hours.

Modifié par Chris Priestly, 06 juin 2012 - 09:26 .

[BjornDaDwarf]

DiebytheSword wrote...

Again, brushing off aim assist on the consoles is an actual straw man argument, as your console is centering your aim on a hitbox, you need to actually do that, scope or no, on the PC.  So no, my PC actually requires that I aim precisely, regardless of how fast I pop up and release my scope. 

Why are people assuming that I'm a terrible infiltrator for occasionally getting caught in bad spot?  @#$% happens, and being stunlocked in that position means you will die, regardless of how skilled you think you are.

Atlas I agree with, but brutes lunge from impressive distances, and Banshees teleport.  Geth are silent, and Phantoms cloak . . .

Who was strawmanning again?  Reach harder.

Except that I showed you examples of PC players explaining how they use quickscoping to do exactly what I was describing.  Others on your platform execute the action I described on a regular basis.  Ergo, quickscoping is a perfectly valid strategy on PC. I don't use quickscoping for my distance shots, and rarely or never achieve headhots with it.  Put the reticle on center mass, quickscope, fire.  The mechanics of that are functionally the same regardless of whether you are on PC or console. 

Show me an example of a PC player on these boards explaining how quickscoping doesn't work on the PC?  Not just complaining about console auto-aim/assist, but empirically demonstrating how quickscoping actually doesn't work. 

Also, I haven't said that you're a bad infiltrator, only that maybe you should look around a bit more.  I hear Banshees, and I start keeping an eye on my surroundings more.  In later waves, when I know that multiple Brute spawns are common, I keep an eye out.  Past W6, I will often turn a full 360 degrees as I'm reloading to see what's going on behind me, check on the status of my teammates, etc.  That may mean I fire a few less bullets per wave, but it keeps me alive. 

But the original point was your strawman argument that these were major weakness to the Infiltrator class.  And they simply aren't.  I've demonstrated that PC players use quickscoping, which helps in the situation described.  I've shown how the AoE abilities of many Infiltrator classes will let them stagger or kill a mob that sneaks up on them.  And I've outlined how a slightly more conservative playstyle can help keep bosses from sneaking up on you. 

Logic, examples and evidence to show how to handle the supposed weakness you described.  Your argument so far has been that console auto-aim saves me.  

[SanguineRose]

DiebytheSword wrote...

LULZferBAKON wrote...

DiebytheSword wrote...
Its the TC bonus applying to the Krysae's AOE that's the problem, not the TC.

Someone suggested the Krysae be turned into an Assault Rifle, probably one of the best solutions.

I wholly agree with this, and its a sensible solution.  It doesn't afffect the weapon for anyone but the infiltrator.  Shotguns, SMGs, ARs and Pistols should all have a smaller damage bonus than SRs in TC than they currently do, that would fix most of the woes.

The only problem I have with this solution is that my Turian soldier could not tote Krysae-Phaeston >.>

[Ramsutin]

codename2o2 wrote...

For Christ's sake, people are STILL going on about TC? Really?

Why don't we just get rid of AR on human soldiers, being able to have damage reduction while have your own damage increase AND restore your shields is totally OP.

How about ED on salarians? Drain shields while also restoring your own and completely crippling a geth? OP

What about Rage on Krogans? Being able to deal insane amounts of melee damage in combination with all the other protective powers they have like TA and barrier? over-to-the-powered I say!

Oh, oh, and Biotic charge for all vanguards? Instantly restoring your shields while also dealing damage and traveling any distance to either deal more damage, get to objectives quicker or revive another teammate? Get real, OP

Seriously, this is what all you idiots sound like to me. Bioware isn't ruining MP, you guys are.

+1
BUT:
You forgot that we can equip equipments but enemy can't which is totally OPed! Nerf ammo bonuses, gears, and the rest! Also it is not fair we can choose between multiple weapons. Either nerf every gun to do 1 hitpoint or give the enemy Cains or Cobras!

[Immortal Strife]

Bases on previous nerfs to classes I cannot see the infiltrator ever being nerfed to boredom by Bioware. Yet, even with a minor change I can safely assume the forums will be filled with upset fans; which is sad. Some player get used to using op characters and weapons and when the are nerfed they take it personally, almost like it's an attack against the way they play. I for one am all for balance, and right now the infiltrator, and Krysae are not balanced.

Modifié par Immortal Strife, 06 juin 2012 - 09:07 .

[LULZferBAKON]

codename2o2 wrote...

For Christ's sake, people are STILL going on about TC? Really?

Why don't we just get rid of AR on human soldiers, being able to have damage reduction while have your own damage increase AND restore your shields is totally OP.

How about ED on salarians? Drain shields while also restoring your own and completely crippling a geth? OP

What about Rage on Krogans? Being able to deal insane amounts of melee damage in combination with all the other protective powers they have like TA and barrier? over-to-the-powered I say!

Oh, oh, and Biotic charge for all vanguards? Instantly restoring your shields while also dealing damage and traveling any distance to either deal more damage, get to objectives quicker or revive another teammate? Get real, OP

Seriously, this is what all you idiots sound like to me. Bioware isn't ruining MP, you guys are.

Tactical Cloak is a 140% damage bonus on the strongest and most accurate weapons in the game, which draws aggro away from Infiltrators thus giving them better survivability.

[SanguineRose]

LULZferBAKON wrote...

codename2o2 wrote...

For Christ's sake, people are STILL going on about TC? Really?

Why don't we just get rid of AR on human soldiers, being able to have damage reduction while have your own damage increase AND restore your shields is totally OP.

How about ED on salarians? Drain shields while also restoring your own and completely crippling a geth? OP

What about Rage on Krogans? Being able to deal insane amounts of melee damage in combination with all the other protective powers they have like TA and barrier? over-to-the-powered I say!

Oh, oh, and Biotic charge for all vanguards? Instantly restoring your shields while also dealing damage and traveling any distance to either deal more damage, get to objectives quicker or revive another teammate? Get real, OP

Seriously, this is what all you idiots sound like to me. Bioware isn't ruining MP, you guys are.

Tactical Cloak is a 140% damage bonus on the strongest and most accurate weapons in the game, which draws aggro away from Infiltrators thus giving them better survivability.

for, at most, 2-3 shots. After which, the Infiltrator enters a state of COMPLETE vulnerability and helplessness. Oh, and the agro from the shot putting the attention back on them, as well...

[WizenSlinky0]

As an infiltrator I really wouldn't care if TC got nuked. I like the class. I like being able to revive people without having two primes stun-locking me. But really, I find the greatest reason infiltrators score top on the boards is because of their ability to deal out huge damage against armor. The boss level units and higher level armored units all give substantial points. So, if you're doing the most damage to them, you're going to top the scoreboards every time.

But, I always considered the infiltrator the type of class that should be focusing on the big fish and ignoring the small fry. Though I wonder if it'd be better if the infiltrators damage bonus came from a skill like tactical scan (that is personal, rather than group use), rather than the cloak itself. Tactical cloak alone does a little too much bonus damage and it might be better if infiltrators had to sacrifice an extra skill for that bonus damage.

Modifié par WizenSlinky0, 06 juin 2012 - 09:10 .

[heybigmoney]

Ramsutin wrote...

heybigmoney wrote...

Dmg nerf wouldn't be enough. It doesn't address the problem of infiltrators never pulling aggro and using teammates as decoys. A longer cooldown as well would force them to fight enemies outside of cloak somewhat alleviating the problem.

Please explain how longer cooldown is going to help with 250/750 (health/shield) Inf to stay alive when Primes will do that damage nearly instantly and Phantoms will do that accross the map. What good is a dead inf to the team?

You mean that the most survivable class in the game currently will now only be as survivable as a 3000 hp krogan, regenerating health vorcha, or badass batarian?  Oh the horror!!!  They will have to settle for only having the best dmg output in the game now!!

[codename2o2]

LULZferBAKON wrote...

codename2o2 wrote...

For Christ's sake, people are STILL going on about TC? Really?

Why don't we just get rid of AR on human soldiers, being able to have damage reduction while have your own damage increase AND restore your shields is totally OP.

How about ED on salarians? Drain shields while also restoring your own and completely crippling a geth? OP

What about Rage on Krogans? Being able to deal insane amounts of melee damage in combination with all the other protective powers they have like TA and barrier? over-to-the-powered I say!

Oh, oh, and Biotic charge for all vanguards? Instantly restoring your shields while also dealing damage and traveling any distance to either deal more damage, get to objectives quicker or revive another teammate? Get real, OP

Seriously, this is what all you idiots sound like to me. Bioware isn't ruining MP, you guys are.

Tactical Cloak is a 140% damage bonus on the strongest and most accurate weapons in the game, which draws aggro away from Infiltrators thus giving them better survivability.

News flash: every single class can survive just fine if they're played right and specced right. And last I checked, the tactical cloak bonus in damage lasts for... 1.5 seconds? Enough to get out one clip on my valiant. AR gives out what, 70% damage boost over 6 or so seconds? learn to do math

[Ramsutin]

BjornDaDwarf wrote...

DiebytheSword wrote...

Again, brushing off aim assist on the consoles is an actual straw man argument, as your console is centering your aim on a hitbox, you need to actually do that, scope or no, on the PC.  So no, my PC actually requires that I aim precisely, regardless of how fast I pop up and release my scope. 

Why are people assuming that I'm a terrible infiltrator for occasionally getting caught in bad spot?  @#$% happens, and being stunlocked in that position means you will die, regardless of how skilled you think you are.

Atlas I agree with, but brutes lunge from impressive distances, and Banshees teleport.  Geth are silent, and Phantoms cloak . . .

Who was strawmanning again?  Reach harder.

Except that I showed you examples of PC players explaining how they use quickscoping to do exactly what I was describing.  Others on your platform execute the action I described on a regular basis.  Ergo, quickscoping is a perfectly valid strategy on PC. I don't use quickscoping for my distance shots, and rarely or never achieve headhots with it.  Put the reticle on center mass, quickscope, fire.  The mechanics of that are functionally the same regardless of whether you are on PC or console. 

Show me an example of a PC player on these boards explaining how quickscoping doesn't work on the PC?  Not just complaining about console auto-aim/assist, but empirically demonstrating how quickscoping actually doesn't work. 

Also, I haven't said that you're a bad infiltrator, only that maybe you should look around a bit more.  I hear Banshees, and I start keeping an eye on my surroundings more.  In later waves, when I know that multiple Brute spawns are common, I keep an eye out.  Past W6, I will often turn a full 360 degrees as I'm reloading to see what's going on behind me, check on the status of my teammates, etc.  That may mean I fire a few less bullets per wave, but it keeps me alive. 

But the original point was your strawman argument that these were major weakness to the Infiltrator class.  And they simply aren't.  I've demonstrated that PC players use quickscoping, which helps in the situation described.  I've shown how the AoE abilities of many Infiltrator classes will let them stagger or kill a mob that sneaks up on them.  And I've outlined how a slightly more conservative playstyle can help keep bosses from sneaking up on you. 

Logic, examples and evidence to show how to handle the supposed weakness you described.  Your argument so far has been that console auto-aim saves me.  

Quickscoping CAN be done on PC but it is not good thing to do. It is wasting ammo. Many times have I qs:ed  a husk with Javelin only to notice stagger and 1 bar off. It CAN be usefull but I'd rather aim properly even in close range.

[DiebytheSword]

BjornDaDwarf wrote...
Your argument so far has been that console auto-aim saves me.  

No, my argument has been that quick scoping serves no advantage on PC, I don't care what your video shows.  All classes can do that with all scoped weapons, but, and this is the critical part, you have to aim.

Quickscoping on a console makes sure that you are far less likley to miss that lifesaving shot, which on the PC is not a garaunteed thing.

Ergo, tunnel vision is still a problem endemic to scoped weapons, which infiltrators should be relying on.  Shotguns and such should be a non-issue because I agree that THEY need to be nerfed out of TC, as should the Krysae's rediculous AOE.

Tactical cloak also does not make you invisible when you are being attacked, it lowers their chance to hit you, which barely helps with turrets and marauders and the like.  That is most definately not a strawman, and endemic only to the infiltrator, as it is one of our "get out of jail free" cards.

The Infiltrator is not a close up fighter, and never should be, unless properly specced for such, in which case they should forgo the long range benefits, which if I recall they do.

[Mojenator12345]

I've seen a lot of justifications in this thread for nerfing TC that are, frankly, stupid (infs score too high, they shed aggro onto me, wah wah). But OP is correct that BW having to balance weapons based on the TC bonus sucks for all non-inf classes. Particularly as BW seems to be shifting the focus in multiplayer from powers to weapons. The idea is not to make infs weaker, it's to allow BW to make the weapons more powerful so that all of the non-inf classes aren't gimped.

[SanguineRose]

codename2o2 wrote...

LULZferBAKON wrote...

codename2o2 wrote...

For Christ's sake, people are STILL going on about TC? Really?

Why don't we just get rid of AR on human soldiers, being able to have damage reduction while have your own damage increase AND restore your shields is totally OP.

How about ED on salarians? Drain shields while also restoring your own and completely crippling a geth? OP

What about Rage on Krogans? Being able to deal insane amounts of melee damage in combination with all the other protective powers they have like TA and barrier? over-to-the-powered I say!

Oh, oh, and Biotic charge for all vanguards? Instantly restoring your shields while also dealing damage and traveling any distance to either deal more damage, get to objectives quicker or revive another teammate? Get real, OP

Seriously, this is what all you idiots sound like to me. Bioware isn't ruining MP, you guys are.

Tactical Cloak is a 140% damage bonus on the strongest and most accurate weapons in the game, which draws aggro away from Infiltrators thus giving them better survivability.

News flash: every single class can survive just fine if they're played right and specced right. And last I checked, the tactical cloak bonus in damage lasts for... 1.5 seconds? Enough to get out one clip on my valiant. AR gives out what, 70% damage boost over 6 or so seconds? learn to do math

It's 50%, but it also refills clips, leading to such horrors as the double-barreled Widow sniper.

[codename2o2]

Actually I just checked now, with the fourth evolution set for damage the bonus is 70%

[SanguineRose]

Mojenator12345 wrote...

I've seen a lot of justifications in this thread for nerfing TC that are, frankly, stupid (infs score too high, they shed aggro onto me, wah wah). But OP is correct that BW having to balance weapons based on the TC bonus sucks for all non-inf classes. Particularly as BW seems to be shifting the focus in multiplayer from powers to weapons. The idea is not to make infs weaker, it's to allow BW to make the weapons more powerful so that all of the non-inf classes aren't gimped.

This I can agree with. I have a compromise idea that favors that argument. What if a large portion of the Inf's TC bonus damage was siphoned into part bonus SR damage and part bonus headshot damage?

[LULZferBAKON]

codename2o2 wrote...

LULZferBAKON wrote...

codename2o2 wrote...

For Christ's sake, people are STILL going on about TC? Really?

Why don't we just get rid of AR on human soldiers, being able to have damage reduction while have your own damage increase AND restore your shields is totally OP.

How about ED on salarians? Drain shields while also restoring your own and completely crippling a geth? OP

What about Rage on Krogans? Being able to deal insane amounts of melee damage in combination with all the other protective powers they have like TA and barrier? over-to-the-powered I say!

Oh, oh, and Biotic charge for all vanguards? Instantly restoring your shields while also dealing damage and traveling any distance to either deal more damage, get to objectives quicker or revive another teammate? Get real, OP

Seriously, this is what all you idiots sound like to me. Bioware isn't ruining MP, you guys are.

Tactical Cloak is a 140% damage bonus on the strongest and most accurate weapons in the game, which draws aggro away from Infiltrators thus giving them better survivability.

News flash: every single class can survive just fine if they're played right and specced right. And last I checked, the tactical cloak bonus in damage lasts for... 1.5 seconds? Enough to get out one clip on my valiant. AR gives out what, 70% damage boost over 6 or so seconds? learn to do math

Oh yes,  just one clip, because your cloak totally isn't recharged by the time you finish reloading.  Oh wait, it is.

[SanguineRose]

codename2o2 wrote...

Actually I just checked now, with the fourth evolution set for damage the bonus is 70%

50...70...I was more trying to emphasize a soldier with a sniper rifle can actually be scarier than an Inf. XD

[Fortack]

Torguemada wrote...

Except that your post didn't make any sense what so ever.
If i was playing with the best people, they would outscore me no matter what class i or them where playing, becouse their simple better in this game then me.
Witch follows exactly from my previous point.

This is what you said:

Torguemada wrote...

Ofcource i top the board when i happen to play infiltrator, but i do that with the other classes too(even against krysae carrying infltrators)
Maybe you should just L2P, instead of crying for nerfs in the forums.

I am a little confused here. Do you play with people who are way below your skill all the time?

It's quite simple actually. When 4 equally skilled people play a match (1 inf, 3 other classes) the one playing Infiltrator is going to have the highest score 9/10 times. So it does matter what class one is playing which is what you've denied.

Modifié par Fortack, 06 juin 2012 - 09:14 .

[BjornDaDwarf]

Ramsutin wrote...

Quickscoping CAN be done on PC but it is not good thing to do. It is wasting ammo. Many times have I qs:ed  a husk with Javelin only to notice stagger and 1 bar off. It CAN be usefull but I'd rather aim properly even in close range.

QSing was only one part of our discussion, and I think we got derailed by it.

As a PC player, do you buy his argument that the tunnel vision created by being a Sniper is a significant weakness to the Infiltrator class because it makes it easier for enemies to sneak up on them?

[codename2o2]

LULZferBAKON wrote...

codename2o2 wrote...

LULZferBAKON wrote...

codename2o2 wrote...

For Christ's sake, people are STILL going on about TC? Really?

Why don't we just get rid of AR on human soldiers, being able to have damage reduction while have your own damage increase AND restore your shields is totally OP.

How about ED on salarians? Drain shields while also restoring your own and completely crippling a geth? OP

What about Rage on Krogans? Being able to deal insane amounts of melee damage in combination with all the other protective powers they have like TA and barrier? over-to-the-powered I say!

Oh, oh, and Biotic charge for all vanguards? Instantly restoring your shields while also dealing damage and traveling any distance to either deal more damage, get to objectives quicker or revive another teammate? Get real, OP

Seriously, this is what all you idiots sound like to me. Bioware isn't ruining MP, you guys are.

Tactical Cloak is a 140% damage bonus on the strongest and most accurate weapons in the game, which draws aggro away from Infiltrators thus giving them better survivability.

News flash: every single class can survive just fine if they're played right and specced right. And last I checked, the tactical cloak bonus in damage lasts for... 1.5 seconds? Enough to get out one clip on my valiant. AR gives out what, 70% damage boost over 6 or so seconds? learn to do math

Oh yes,  just one clip, because your cloak totally isn't recharged by the time you finish reloading.  Oh wait, it is.

And AR doesn't recharge? And no other class can reload cancel? And other classes can't spec for lighter weapons and shorter recharge times? edit: OH and Ar totally doesn't instantly reload your clip, right?

Modifié par codename2o2, 06 juin 2012 - 09:16 .

[WizenSlinky0]

Actually, I think the infiltrator should be re-organized in-line with many of the other classes with awesome powers by nixing recharge speed. Tactical Cloak has a 25% Sniper Bonus upgrade. Some infiltrators, like the Quarian Male, won't get anything past that because they are meant for group benefit with tactical scan. Some infiltrators will get an ability, we'll call it overclock, that drops their recharge rate by 60% (same as blade armor, etc.) but offer a 75% damage bonus.

So, an infiltrator will have to switch between sniper mode and stealth mode requiring more caution and on the fly movements.

[SanguineRose]

Fortack wrote...


I am a little confused here. Do you play with people who are way below your skill all the time?

It's quite simple actually. When 4 equally skilled people play a match (1 inf, 3 other classes) the one playing Infiltrator is going to have the highest score 9/10 times. So it does matter what class one is playing which is what you've denied.

In my experience, more like 3/10 times.