497 réponses à ce sujet

[Veedrock]

A Tactical Cloak damage nerf is very understandable. I support it.

[capn233]

DiebytheSword wrote...

It breaks multishot rifles and doesn't affect single shot ones.

It makes multishot weapons relatively worse on Infiltrator, which they are now anyway, and probably should be.

However, it wouldn't do anything for scoring, since a multitude of high scoring infiltrators are running Claymore anyway, which is single shot with shield gate "work around."

[Blind2Society]

Who from BioWare has even said that TC is what they base their decisions to buff/nerf weapons on?

[Immortal Strife]

DiebytheSword wrote...

Immortal Strife wrote...

DaDiddles wrote...

I often wondered why weapons as a whole feel underpowered. Now it makes sense, because they are balanced based off tactical cloak.

I think the proposed changes by OP are a tad much, but something should happen to cloak for sure. One possible solution is to have the damage bonus from cloak decrease over time. So the first shot that breaks the cloak has the full damage bonus, while 1-2 seconds later it drops to 50% bonus, and by the time the cloak damage bonus time is almost up you only have 10%-20% extra damage.

This is not a bad ideal, actually. Thumbs up!

It breaks multishot rifles and doesn't affect single shot ones.

True, and likely not possible as it's not within the paramiters of the all ready given guidelines of TC, ie, cloak damage, min cool down, lenght of TC window for damage. But atleast it's better than some of the other suggestions.

[CountryPayload5]

XxTaLoNxX wrote...

Honestly a nerf down to 15% IS unreasonable.

I do agree that TC needs a rebalance BADLY. However I think THIS would be the more reasonable change.

Change Rank 4 damage bonus from 90% to 65%
Change Rank 6 sniper rifle damage bonus from 40% flat damage TO 40% HEADSHOT damage bonus.

Those changes would bring the Tactical Cloak skill down a notch WHILE SIMULTANEOUSLY nerfing the Krysae WITHOUT actually nerfing the Krysae!

Anyone agree?

:wizard::wizard::wizard::wizard::wizard::wizard::wizard::wizard:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

WARNING: Space Magic is involved in this post!!!

PAY ATTENTION! I have a decent suggestion with a GOOD compramise!

... I don't know what to say. Someone gives an idea for TC that barely changes anything but can fix all the problems we have AT THE SAME TIME? Wow... And it makes weapons designed for head shots more valuable. (Now all we have to do is add weak points to the bosses so they can use this damage bost.)

[Blind2Society]

I really don't understand why people assume sniper rifles are made for headshots. They're not. They are made to blow holes the size of bowling balls in things. Center body mass my friends, center body mass.

What TC makes sniper rifles is almost what sniper rifles should be to start with.

Oh, and I would like to reiterate....

Blind2Society wrote...

Who from BioWare has even said that TC is what they base their decisions to buff/nerf weapons on?

Modifié par Blind2Society, 06 juin 2012 - 07:32 .

[Yigorse]

DNC Protoman wrote...

Yigorse wrote...

Why punish everyone else for a small subset of the community who don't understand the game mechanics. Tactical cloak IS a little overpowered at times, I grant you, but the people crying for the nerfs all over the place are the problem, nerf the nerfers!!!

trust me, once TC is nerfed it will open the door for the buffs we need to weapons.

OFC, not denying your logic.  I agree that far too many of the calls for nerfs are down to people using them against underpowered enemies and with overpowered damage boost abilities.

There are other ways to do it however.  Frankly I'm not sure Bioware's actually listning to most of this garbage anyway.  If they were, the Eagle would be a portable autocannon by now and the GPS would be about as useful as the other shotguns.  Nerfing Tactical cloak into the floor to force people to judge the weapons on thier own merits however is a crude way of leveling the field.

[DiebytheSword]

Blind2Society wrote...

I really don't understand why people assume sniper rifles are made for headshots. They're not. They are made to blow holes the size of bowling balls in things. Center body mass my friends, center body mass.

What TC makes sniper rifles is almost what sniper rifles should be to start with.

Oh, and I would like to reiterate....

Blind2Society wrote...

Who from BioWare has even said that TC is what they base their decisions to buff/nerf weapons on?

I very much agree with this.  Assault rifles should also be way more deadly, while being horribly inaccurate if the hammer is held down.

[Immortal Strife]

CountryPayload5 wrote...

XxTaLoNxX wrote...

Honestly a nerf down to 15% IS unreasonable.

I do agree that TC needs a rebalance BADLY. However I think THIS would be the more reasonable change.

Change Rank 4 damage bonus from 90% to 65%
Change Rank 6 sniper rifle damage bonus from 40% flat damage TO 40% HEADSHOT damage bonus.

Those changes would bring the Tactical Cloak skill down a notch WHILE SIMULTANEOUSLY nerfing the Krysae WITHOUT actually nerfing the Krysae!

Anyone agree?

:wizard::wizard::wizard::wizard::wizard::wizard::wizard::wizard:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

WARNING: Space Magic is involved in this post!!!

PAY ATTENTION! I have a decent suggestion with a GOOD compramise!

... I don't know what to say. Someone gives an idea for TC that barely changes anything but can fix all the problems we have AT THE SAME TIME? Wow... And it makes weapons designed for head shots more valuable. (Now all we have to do is add weak points to the bosses so they can use this damage bost.)

Do you play bronze or something. Shield gate on gold coupled with no boss headshot damage, utterly, irrefutable, makes this idea null in void. 

Modifié par Immortal Strife, 06 juin 2012 - 07:55 .

[Fox-snipe]

Blind2Society wrote...

I really don't understand why people assume sniper rifles are made for headshots. They're not. They are made to blow holes the size of bowling balls in things. Center body mass my friends, center body mass.

What TC makes sniper rifles is almost what sniper rifles should be to start with.

It's more to reward carefuly aiming, which Cloak is supposed to give you the ability to do (until recently).  Right now you can just quick-scope shoot at a boss and hey guess what, you just did the most damage your class is capable of.  Stupid really.

[DiebytheSword]

Fox-snipe wrote...

Blind2Society wrote...

I really don't understand why people assume sniper rifles are made for headshots. They're not. They are made to blow holes the size of bowling balls in things. Center body mass my friends, center body mass.

What TC makes sniper rifles is almost what sniper rifles should be to start with.

It's more to reward carefuly aiming, which Cloak is supposed to give you the ability to do (until recently).  Right now you can just quick-scope shoot at a boss and hey guess what, you just did the most damage your class is capable of.  Stupid really.

Only true of some guns.  The problem here is that we have 4 guns in the sniper class that qualify as anti-materiel rifles.  They should reward for hitting anywhere, as they are essentially hand held mass effect cannons.  The other, proper sniper rifles fit your description.

The problem is compounded by ME3 not having proper range for such huge AM rifles.

[CmnDwnWrkn]

Every class and weapon should have at least some downside to using it. There simply is NO drawback to a multi-shot sniper + cloak.

[MissMinaethiel]

Immortal Strife wrote...

CountryPayload5 wrote...

XxTaLoNxX wrote...

Honestly a nerf down to 15% IS unreasonable.

I do agree that TC needs a rebalance BADLY. However I think THIS would be the more reasonable change.

Change Rank 4 damage bonus from 90% to 65%
Change Rank 6 sniper rifle damage bonus from 40% flat damage TO 40% HEADSHOT damage bonus.

Those changes would bring the Tactical Cloak skill down a notch WHILE SIMULTANEOUSLY nerfing the Krysae WITHOUT actually nerfing the Krysae!

Anyone agree?

:wizard::wizard::wizard::wizard::wizard::wizard::wizard::wizard:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

WARNING: Space Magic is involved in this post!!!

PAY ATTENTION! I have a decent suggestion with a GOOD compramise!

... I don't know what to say. Someone gives an idea for TC that barely changes anything but can fix all the problems we have AT THE SAME TIME? Wow... And it makes weapons designed for head shots more valuable. (Now all we have to do is add weak points to the bosses so they can use this damage bost.)

Do you play bronze or something. Shield gate on gold coupled with no boss headshot damage, utterly, irrefutable, makes this ideal null in void. 

Ya I like Talon's idea a lot, but with shield gate already killing any overkill damage done there would be no point in taking headshot damage for gold. Now if they didn't have shield gate stop 100% of overkill damage it would make it more endearing to me. It would also allow me to use my single shot SRs without having to wait for a teammate to strip off the rest of the shields.

Of all the ideas I've seen for TC, this is the one I'd agree with most. Stripping the damage bonus to a mere 15% is jsut silly, and some other ideas I've read are even worse.

[DiebytheSword]

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

Every class and weapon should have at least some downside to using it. There simply is NO drawback to a multi-shot sniper + cloak.

Right, because tunnel vision and stand off range make no difference.  Have you tried to snipe a Hunter at melee range with the Valiant on Gold?

It usually ends poorly for the infiltrator.

As does surprise Banshee, Brute, Phantom, Engineer, Atlas and Marauder while I'm gunning down a more distant target.

There is a downside, you have to land multiple bullets, as headshots, close up while the target is moving.  Lets not forget that firing when not scoped in results in a massive damage loss.

[CountryPayload5]

LULZferBAKON wrote...

Alright, lemme make a suggestion to counter 'bosses don't have headshots' and 'shieldgate!'

Change headshots so they allow some damage to go past shieldgate, not all of it if its that overpowered, but enough to make it viable.
Give bosses weakpoints, not headshots or anything super big, but kinks in the armor. Sneak a bullet into an unarmored part of an Atlas's joint, Rupture one of those tubes on a Geth Prime, etc.

Sniper Rifles should revolve around skill, they should naturally do an insane amount of damage when hitting an enemy where it hurts, not because some power allows them to.

Second great point i have seen. +1

[Gockey]

ntrisley wrote...

Gockey wrote...
Which would help make them a more viable loadout option for other classes as well, ensuring that homogenization we all love in games. /sarcasm

Heavens forbid there be "signature weapons" for each class type.

As I've stated before, not sure what changes should be made.  Just sure that changes need to be made.  A nerf to TC in incoming.  The degree of severity is the only question.

Then maybe you should try to actually come up with a reasoning rather than "Nerf the thing!".

Tactical Cloak isn't the issue. The horribly designed howitzer that was introduced is the problem.

You can use it on any class with quite acceptable results, but the fact that it was a sniper rifle with an explosive shot was just a dumb move--especially allowing it to benefit from the same perks which are designed to beef up an already underperforming group of weapons.
If it was given higher damage to armored targets and penetration, I can almost guarantee you that I would be using it more than I use my Viper X/Widow X. As it stands though? It's a gimmick. It's a freakin' gimmick gun and I don't like using it.

Apparently you didn't comprehend the sarcasm tag.  I agree with signature weapons and I am certainly in favor of a class specializing in each one.  I'm vehemently against homogenization.  

However tac cloak is the issue.  I don't disagree that the Krysae is over the top in several ways.  But single target damage is not one of them.  Unless your an infiltrator.  Same for GPS, Claymore, BW, etc etc.  

Tac cloak is doomed to be nerfed.  We're all just debating degrees of severity.

DiebytheSword wrote...

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

Every class and weapon should have at least some downside to using it. There simply is NO drawback to a multi-shot sniper + cloak.

Right, because tunnel vision and stand off range make no difference.  Have you tried to snipe a Hunter at melee range with the Valiant on Gold?

It usually ends poorly for the infiltrator.

As does surprise Banshee, Brute, Phantom, Engineer, Atlas and Marauder while I'm gunning down a more distant target.

There is a downside, you have to land multiple bullets, as headshots, close up while the target is moving.  Lets not forget that firing when not scoped in results in a massive damage loss.

 

I would argue your doing it wrong?  Half of the benefit of tac cloak is a get out of jail free card.  However if your looking to use just that particular scnario, I would posit that what happens to the Infiltrator is the same thing that happens to any other class.  A good player lives and a bad player dies.  Not like you cant stagger it with a prox mine, shield drain to survive a cloak CD, arc grenade it to death etc etc.

Modifié par Gockey, 06 juin 2012 - 07:53 .

[Blind2Society]

No, it's true of all sniper rifles, anti material rifles blow things in half. Watch any videos of sniper rifles being shot into ballistic gel. One shot from a sniper should kill mooks no matter where you hit them and the heavy snipers, well, yeah.

As for the being no drawback to a TC sniper. What about the fact that once you cloak all enemies decide it's time for a dance competition? And what about CQC? High powered scopes aren't good for CQC and if I hipfire an assault trooper with my sniper it takes away one bar of health soooo....

Yeah, I'd say there are some drawbacks.

[Blind2Society]

Fox-snipe wrote...

Blind2Society wrote...

I really don't understand why people assume sniper rifles are made for headshots. They're not. They are made to blow holes the size of bowling balls in things. Center body mass my friends, center body mass.

What TC makes sniper rifles is almost what sniper rifles should be to start with.

It's more to reward carefuly aiming, which Cloak is supposed to give you the ability to do (until recently).

Again, the problem here is, the second you cloak and there is nobody else around, the enemies decide it's time for a dance contest. So no, it doesn't give you more time to line up the shot.

[CmnDwnWrkn]

DiebytheSword wrote...

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

Every class and weapon should have at least some downside to using it. There simply is NO drawback to a multi-shot sniper + cloak.

Right, because tunnel vision and stand off range make no difference.  Have you tried to snipe a Hunter at melee range with the Valiant on Gold?

It usually ends poorly for the infiltrator.

As does surprise Banshee, Brute, Phantom, Engineer, Atlas and Marauder while I'm gunning down a more distant target.

There is a downside, you have to land multiple bullets, as headshots, close up while the target is moving.  Lets not forget that firing when not scoped in results in a massive damage loss.

These are things that every/weapon class has to deal with.  You're just so spoiled by the infiltrator sniper that you believe you should be able to do infinite damage anywhere on the map without taking any damage yourself.

Modifié par CmnDwnWrkn, 06 juin 2012 - 07:54 .

[sareth_65536]

DiebytheSword wrote...
It breaks multishot rifles and doesn't affect single shot ones.

as it should

[DaDiddles]

Immortal Strife wrote...

DiebytheSword wrote...

Immortal Strife wrote...

DaDiddles wrote...

I often wondered why weapons as a whole feel underpowered. Now it makes sense, because they are balanced based off tactical cloak.

I think the proposed changes by OP are a tad much, but something should happen to cloak for sure. One possible solution is to have the damage bonus from cloak decrease over time. So the first shot that breaks the cloak has the full damage bonus, while 1-2 seconds later it drops to 50% bonus, and by the time the cloak damage bonus time is almost up you only have 10%-20% extra damage.

This is not a bad ideal, actually. Thumbs up!

It breaks multishot rifles and doesn't affect single shot ones.

True, and likely not possible as it's not within the paramiters of the all ready given guidelines of TC, ie, cloak damage, min cool down, lenght of TC window for damage. But atleast it's better than some of the other suggestions.

It's only the one suggestion. I would also prefer increasing the minimum cooldown time for the cloak to about 6 seconds instead of 3. And since I hate nerfs without buffs, I'd actually suggest to INCREASE the damage bonus, or make it so the 40% bonus is for all weapons and not just sniper rifles.

With these changes, it would actually turn the Infiltrator into a real burst-damage character, which I think is what was intended (like backstabbing with a rogue). As it stands now, with tactical cloak's low cooldown, Infiltrators work both as a burst damage AND sustained damage class, not to mention all the other benefits like rezing teammates, capping objectives, etc, etc.

Ultimately, whether or not Bioware actually looks at tactical cloak as a measure of how to balance weapons, the issue still stands that if you boost weapons you're in fact boosting the Infiltrator class more than any other, especially if said weapon happens to be staple for the class already. On the other hand, if you nerf a weapon, the nerf hurts other classes MUCH more than the Infiltrator. It seems to me that the balance issue is definitely with the infiltrator then.

[Torguemada]

Gockey wrote...

• Infiltrators are always top of the boards.  This matters to people.  It may not mean a thing, but last I checked nothing we did in any video game meant anything.  So it's all digital e-peen anyways

And here'ss the reall reason why all the baddies cry for infiltrator ners, cos their too damm bad to outscore them.

In truth infiltrators only top the board when the one playing them is better then the rest of the team, just like it is with all classes.

[DiebytheSword]

Gockey wrote...

DiebytheSword wrote...

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

Every class and weapon should have at least some downside to using it. There simply is NO drawback to a multi-shot sniper + cloak.

Right, because tunnel vision and stand off range make no difference.  Have you tried to snipe a Hunter at melee range with the Valiant on Gold?

It usually ends poorly for the infiltrator.

As does surprise Banshee, Brute, Phantom, Engineer, Atlas and Marauder while I'm gunning down a more distant target.

There is a downside, you have to land multiple bullets, as headshots, close up while the target is moving.  Lets not forget that firing when not scoped in results in a massive damage loss.

 

I would argue your doing it wrong?  Half of the benefit of tac cloak is a get out of jail free card.  However if your looking to use just that particular scnario, I would posit that what happens to the Infiltrator is the same thing that happens to any other class.  A good player lives and a bad player dies.  Not like you cant stagger it with a prox mine, shield drain to survive a cloak CD, arc grenade it to death etc etc.

There are two human infiltrators that have no such stopping power at that range save sticky grenades, which might stagger but not kill said problems.

That's is beside the point anyway, it was argued that there is no downside when there clearly is, regardless of whether said player is skillful enough to get out of dodge.

TC does not work when you cloak in front of baddies either, it at best buys you an extra half second.

The other classes do not suffer from tunnel vision, unless they have a sniper rifle or scope equipped, where all snipers have a scope, unless they are shotgunning or SMGing it (which I would argue needs nerfing in the case of the claymore).

Modifié par DiebytheSword, 06 juin 2012 - 08:01 .

[ZombieGambit]

90% down to 15%? That's ridiculous and would make the Infiltrator class useless for anything other than being a Gold team's personal rez pony.

The Quarian Male's Tactical Scan gives a +25% bonus and so does the Geth's Hunter Mode, that's more than the Infiltrators signature power would do...

[SanguineRose]

Why nerf what isn't unreasonable?