497 réponses à ce sujet

[CmnDwnWrkn]

Torguemada wrote...

Gockey wrote...

• Infiltrators are always top of the boards.  This matters to people.  It may not mean a thing, but last I checked nothing we did in any video game meant anything.  So it's all digital e-peen anyways

And here'ss the reall reason why all the baddies cry for infiltrator ners, cos their too damm bad to outscore them.

In truth infiltrators only top the board when the one playing them is better then the rest of the team, just like it is with all classes.

The main problem I have with infiltrators is many of them tend to use their teammates to lure enemies out.  Then they take the kill from a safe distance, while their teammate takes the enemy fire.

In other words, infiltrators take the reward without any of the risk.

[SanguineRose]

I outscore infiltrators all the time :/ But they can be a bit devious from time to time...

[LULZferBAKON]

All right, hopefully I can get my point across properly.

Soldiers are the all combat class, Infiltrators and Vanguards are half combat, they only get one of the weapons, but they use that weapon better in that specific range.

Sniper Rifles: Infiltrator > Soldier > Vanguard
Assault Rifles: Soldier > Infiltrator and Vanguard
Shotguns: Vanguard > Soldier > Infiltrator

Infiltrators should be the sniper kings, hands down.  But they should be garbage with shotguns.
Soldiers should be capable of using any weapon decently, but he can't do a specific job better than the other two.
Vanguards should be the strongest shotgun users, and they should be garbage at any further range.

What they really are however:
I have not played much of Soldier, so I don't think I can come up with a good resolution.  Infiltrators are good with snipers and shotguns, they shouldn't be good with shotguns.  Vanguards are perfectly balanced in my eyes, great at close range with a shotgun, but they do horrible damage at long range.

So what I suggest for tactical cloak, as well as other balancing.
- The enhanced damage should work primarily for sniper rifles, but only on headshots.
Sniper rifles are meant to be hard to use, but a great reward, it would still mean infiltrators are the greatest sniper, but only if you headshot.
- Headshots should ignore shieldgate to an extent.
This is so extra damage will become extra damage, rather than falling off the end of the shield bar.
- Bosses should have hard to hit weakpoints.
Primes could take extra damage from hitting those tubes, Atlas's should take more damage from small kinks in their armor, etc.
- As long as enemys don't see you when you cloak, you will be completely ignored until you de-cloak.
You know, a cloak, a tactical one.  Which allows the sniper to get the heck out of there and find a position that fits him much better.
-Cloak should not receive a free pass from the weight system.
Probably the main reason they are so powerful, is because they recieve a free damage boost on practically every shot of a sniper rifle.

[DiebytheSword]

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

DiebytheSword wrote...

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

Every class and weapon should have at least some downside to using it. There simply is NO drawback to a multi-shot sniper + cloak.

Right, because tunnel vision and stand off range make no difference.  Have you tried to snipe a Hunter at melee range with the Valiant on Gold?

It usually ends poorly for the infiltrator.

As does surprise Banshee, Brute, Phantom, Engineer, Atlas and Marauder while I'm gunning down a more distant target.

There is a downside, you have to land multiple bullets, as headshots, close up while the target is moving.  Lets not forget that firing when not scoped in results in a massive damage loss.

These are things that every/weapon class has to deal with.  You're just so spoiled by the infiltrator sniper that you believe you should be able to do infinite damage anywhere on the map without taking any damage yourself.

I'm spoiled?  You sir/ma'am, do not know me, nor my preferences, from a hole in the wall.  For your information I play engineer more often, and I'm just as likely to roll as an Asari Adept.

I never said anything about doing infinite damage from anywhere on the map, do not put words in my mouth.

If I believed that I'd have Krysae or Widow on all my snipers, when in fact I have the Valiant.  You're assumptions are as meaningless as your argument. 

I have pointed out a counter to your argument, while you retorted with a personal admonsishment of my character.  I think that says all that needs to be said about further conversations with you.

[Immortal Strife]

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

Every class and weapon should have at least some downside to using it. There simply is NO drawback to a multi-shot sniper + cloak.

The draw back is you can't get any shield regeneration while in cloak, although this isn't any real problem for a competent player.

[CmnDwnWrkn]

SanguineRose wrote...

I outscore infiltrators all the time :/ But they can be a bit devious from time to time...

And you SHOULD outscore them, because you likely put yourself in harm's way much more often.

[BjornDaDwarf]

DiebytheSword wrote...

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

Every class and weapon should have at least some downside to using it. There simply is NO drawback to a multi-shot sniper + cloak.

Right, because tunnel vision and stand off range make no difference.  Have you tried to snipe a Hunter at melee range with the Valiant on Gold?

It usually ends poorly for the infiltrator.

As does surprise Banshee, Brute, Phantom, Engineer, Atlas and Marauder while I'm gunning down a more distant target.

There is a downside, you have to land multiple bullets, as headshots, close up while the target is moving.  Lets not forget that firing when not scoped in results in a massive damage loss.

Those are straw man arguments.  Thanks to quickscoping, hitting something directly in front of you with a full power shot is not that hard. 

Geth and Salarian Infiltrators get ProxMine, a fanstastic CC attack.  QMI gets Arc Grenade, a fansastic CC attack.  QFI and Humans get Sticky Grenades, which while not great, are an explosive short ranged attack. 

And you can always cloak and Heavy Melee.

[CountryPayload5]

LULZferBAKON wrote...

All right, hopefully I can get my point across properly.

Soldiers are the all combat class, Infiltrators and Vanguards are half combat, they only get one of the weapons, but they use that weapon better in that specific range.

Sniper Rifles: Infiltrator > Soldier > Vanguard
Assault Rifles: Soldier > Infiltrator and Vanguard
Shotguns: Vanguard > Soldier > Infiltrator

Infiltrators should be the sniper kings, hands down.  But they should be garbage with shotguns.
Soldiers should be capable of using any weapon decently, but he can't do a specific job better than the other two.
Vanguards should be the strongest shotgun users, and they should be garbage at any further range.

What they really are however:
I have not played much of Soldier, so I don't think I can come up with a good resolution.  Infiltrators are good with snipers and shotguns, they shouldn't be good with shotguns.  Vanguards are perfectly balanced in my eyes, great at close range with a shotgun, but they do horrible damage at long range.

So what I suggest for tactical cloak, as well as other balancing.
- The enhanced damage should work primarily for sniper rifles, but only on headshots.
Sniper rifles are meant to be hard to use, but a great reward, it would still mean infiltrators are the greatest sniper, but only if you headshot.
- Headshots should ignore shieldgate to an extent.
This is so extra damage will become extra damage, rather than falling off the end of the shield bar.
- Bosses should have hard to hit weakpoints.
Primes could take extra damage from hitting those tubes, Atlas's should take more damage from small kinks in their armor, etc.
- As long as enemys don't see you when you cloak, you will be completely ignored until you de-cloak.
You know, a cloak, a tactical one.  Which allows the sniper to get the heck out of there and find a position that fits him much better.
-Cloak should not receive a free pass from the weight system.
Probably the main reason they are so powerful, is because they recieve a free damage boost on practically every shot of a sniper rifle.

All of these ideas are exactly what a 'sniper' needs. BW has to give bosses weak points to reward aiming but getting an effective cloak time would irritate many people. Would you simply use the real cooldown time to prevent the weight system exploit?

[heybigmoney]

Dmg nerf wouldn't be enough. It doesn't address the problem of infiltrators never pulling aggro and using teammates as decoys. A longer cooldown as well would force them to fight enemies outside of cloak somewhat alleviating the problem.

[DiebytheSword]

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

Torguemada wrote...

Gockey wrote...

• Infiltrators are always top of the boards.  This matters to people.  It may not mean a thing, but last I checked nothing we did in any video game meant anything.  So it's all digital e-peen anyways

And here'ss the reall reason why all the baddies cry for infiltrator ners, cos their too damm bad to outscore them.

In truth infiltrators only top the board when the one playing them is better then the rest of the team, just like it is with all classes.

The main problem I have with infiltrators is many of them tend to use their teammates to lure enemies out.  Then they take the kill from a safe distance, while their teammate takes the enemy fire.

In other words, infiltrators take the reward without any of the risk.

And personal bias and bad behavior on some players part is a good reason to nerf, amirite?  When I play infiltrator I look at myself as a big game hunter.  I prioritize threats to other players, not my score.

Seems like you have a chip on your shoulder about being used as bait, when its probably more along the lines of the high weapon damage dealing class putting the damage where it will be most useful.

And while the infiltrator hoofs it deep into enemy held portions of the map to do objectives your right there meatshielding, right?  No class is an island, they all have their jobs, and the infiltrator has one that demands you put damage where its needed, not unlike the caster classes using detonations to wipe out bosses and their mook squad escorts.

This is a co-op game, and if an infiltrator is actually using you as bait, he's doing it wrong.  On the flipside, if you are hating on all infiltrators and want to see the class get nerfed because you have a legitimate beef with some of them, then you are doing it wrong.

[zeal.assassin]

Tactical Cloak been part of the MP since March.
Why are people calling for nerf now?

[Blind2Society]

heybigmoney wrote...

Dmg nerf wouldn't be enough. It doesn't address the problem of infiltrators never pulling aggro and using teammates as decoys. A longer cooldown as well would force them to fight enemies outside of cloak somewhat alleviating the problem.

Ahhhh, now I get it, they should get rid of cloak all together.

"Damn you hunter, why do you get to run around invisible while the rest fo us have to get shot at?"

Somebody get this man a waaahhmburger and french cries.

[Gockey]

DiebytheSword wrote...

There are two human infiltrators that have no such stopping power at that range save sticky grenades, which might stagger but not kill said problems.

That's is beside the point anyway, it was argued that there is no downside when there clearly is, regardless of whether said player is skillful enough to get out of dodge.

TC does not work when you cloak in front of baddies either, it at best buys you an extra half second.

The other classes do not suffer from tunnel vision, unless they have a sniper rifle or scope equipped, where all snipers have a scope, unless they are shotgunning or SMGing it (which I would argue needs nerfing in the case of the claymore).

It's not beside the point.  You created that scenario to artificially strengthen your argument.  I'm not trying to be hostile at all, I'm just saying that if your any good at an infiltrator, you won't find yourself in that position. Because I compltely disagree that tac cloak buys you an extra half second when a hunter is next to you.  It buys you a full get out of jail free card.  Arguing otherwise means that person is bad.  

You can literally gel in a circle of primes, hunters and pyros (lions, tigers and bears!) and still break away safely.  Reliably.  Ergo you'll never find yourself in a situation you can't escape unless cloak is on CD and you have no power free and are in a corner.  Then your fubared like everyone else =)

Torguemada wrote...

And here'ss the reall reason why all the baddies cry for infiltrator ners, cos their too damm bad to outscore them.

In truth infiltrators only top the board when the one playing them is better then the rest of the team, just like it is with all classes.

 

Not a chance.  If you aren't scoring higher with an infiltrator (escpecially with this Krysae cannon) then your doing it wrong.  

Stardusk wrote...

Let's face it people. There is no solution. Infiltrators are OP. But they should not get nerfed. They are either OP, or useless but you can't have anything inbetween. I never play Infiltrators but I'd rather have an OP class than an useless one.

 

Lol you always try to be so PC and avoid  fanning the flames :innocent:  Not criticizing just noting in passing.

Modifié par Gockey, 06 juin 2012 - 08:22 .

[Fox-snipe]

heybigmoney wrote...

Dmg nerf wouldn't be enough. It doesn't address the problem of infiltrators never pulling aggro and using teammates as decoys. A longer cooldown as well would force them to fight enemies outside of cloak somewhat alleviating the problem.

I'm sick of this argument.  I'd like to see actual videos of it even happening (multiple, no accendotal evidence).

Currently Cloak does very litle to help us escape.  Even before it got ruined enemies kept firing in your general direction if you activated Cloak (as they should).  they should, however, ignore someone who Cloaked out-of-sight (they currently do not).

A good sniper will not be Cloaked for more than a few seconds.  The only exceptions to this are objectives, revives, and those trying to close the distance with a target (shotgunners, who are taking a big risk).

Finally, the minimal cooldown is to make an Infiltrator effective at using snipers.  You know, our primary weapon.

[Stardusk]

Let's face it people. There is no solution. Infiltrators are OP. But they should not get nerfed. They are either OP, or useless but you can't have anything inbetween. I never play Infiltrators but I'd rather have an OP class than an useless one.

[SanguineRose]

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

SanguineRose wrote...

I outscore infiltrators all the time :/ But they can be a bit devious from time to time...

And you SHOULD outscore them, because you likely put yourself in harm's way much more often.

actually, I'm safe most of the time, if not the one who's SUPPOSED to be in harm's way.

[DiebytheSword]

BjornDaDwarf wrote...

Those are straw man arguments.  Thanks to quickscoping, hitting something directly in front of you with a full power shot is not that hard. 

Geth and Salarian Infiltrators get ProxMine, a fanstastic CC attack.  QMI gets Arc Grenade, a fansastic CC attack.  QFI and Humans get Sticky Grenades, which while not great, are an explosive short ranged attack. 

And you can always cloak and Heavy Melee.

You must be a console player.  You cannot quick scope meaningfully on PC.  Autoaim is the sin there, and all classes have that on the consoles.  At level 20 on gold, you have a max of three shots in the back from a Geth Hunter, he's probably already hit you twice while in cooldown, you can't cloak and melee him back.  The other classes I mentioned have synch kills, that WILL fire on gold if you tried to melee, cloak or not.

I don't have a GI or MQI, but I can say that a Proximity mine better kill your problem right there, right then or you are dead.  The only ting you can really do is make distance and try again from there, unless you have a sidearm, or are playing a shotgun infiltrator (which . . . shame on you, you are gaming the system).  Likewise, ED will not kill a full health enemy, you will be killed if you attempt to stand your ground, and possibly mowed down as you move away.

These are not straw man arguments, these are real issues, tunnel vision and lack of close range ability (unless you are speced for melee) make my arguments very valid.

[CmnDwnWrkn]

The infiltrator is not like the "caster classes" at all, because those classes are visible at all times. Okay, the infiltrator is the best at dealing damage, fine. Should it also be the best at AVOIDING damage. Being the best at both is what makes the infiltrator overpowered.

[heybigmoney]

zeal.assassin wrote...

Tactical Cloak been part of the MP since March.
Why are people calling for nerf now?

Because mantis and katana on infiltrators was fine.  Now everyone has claymores, gps, black widow, valiant, krysae, reegar, etc.  The game dynamics have changed since march when players were interested in trying out a variety of classes.  Right now in your average gold pug there is a large discrepency between the amount of infiltrators being played vs other classes and the reasons are obvious.

[LULZferBAKON]

Fox-snipe wrote...

heybigmoney wrote...

Dmg nerf wouldn't be enough. It doesn't address the problem of infiltrators never pulling aggro and using teammates as decoys. A longer cooldown as well would force them to fight enemies outside of cloak somewhat alleviating the problem.

I'm sick of this argument.  I'd like to see actual videos of it even happening (multiple, no accendotal evidence).

Currently Cloak does very litle to help us escape.  Even before it got ruined enemies kept firing in your general direction if you activated Cloak (as they should).  they should, however, ignore someone who Cloaked out-of-sight (they currently do not).

A good sniper will not be Cloaked for more than a few seconds.  The only exceptions to this are objectives, revives, and those trying to close the distance with a target (shotgunners, who are taking a big risk).

Finally, the minimal cooldown is to make an Infiltrator effective at using snipers.  You know, our primary weapon.

Snipers are meant to pick out and kill high priority targets, not sweep the floor with absolutely everything.  They are the scalpel, not the hammer.  Thus they should not be shooting at everything willy nilly.

[SanguineRose]

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

The infiltrator is not like the "caster classes" at all, because those classes are visible at all times. Okay, the infiltrator is the best at dealing damage, fine. Should it also be the best at AVOIDING damage. Being the best at both is what makes the infiltrator overpowered.

see, you're just leaving out the "At range" part.

[Gockey]

SanguineRose wrote...

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

The infiltrator is not like the "caster classes" at all, because those classes are visible at all times. Okay, the infiltrator is the best at dealing damage, fine. Should it also be the best at AVOIDING damage. Being the best at both is what makes the infiltrator overpowered.

see, you're just leaving out the "At range" part.

Huh?  I didn't realize tac cloak didnt work at less than a 10m distance?  And I swear I saw that GI with a GPS X...

[Seifer006]

Stardusk wrote...

Let's face it people. There is no solution. Infiltrators are OP. But they should not get nerfed. They are either OP, or useless but you can't have anything inbetween. I never play Infiltrators but I'd rather have an OP class than an useless one.

This


I'll be pissed if Bioware nerfs Infiltrators. what's next? Vorcha's?....then it becomes useless and unenjoyable.

[DiebytheSword]

Gockey wrote...

It's not beside the point.  You created that scenario to artificially strengthen your argument.  I'm not trying to be hostile at all, I'm just saying that if your any good at an infiltrator, you won't find yourself in that position. Because I compltely disagree that tac cloak buys you an extra half second when a hunter is next to you.  It buys you a full get out of jail free card.  Arguing otherwise means that person is bad.  

You can literally gel in a circle of primes, hunters and pyros (lions, tigers and bears!) and still break away safely.  Reliably.  Ergo you'll never find yourself in a situation you can't escape unless cloak is on CD and you have no power free and are in a corner.  Then your fubared like everyone else =)

Stardusk wrote...

Let's face it people. There is no solution. Infiltrators are OP. But they should not get nerfed. They are either OP, or useless but you can't have anything inbetween. I never play Infiltrators but I'd rather have an OP class than an useless one.

 

Lol you always try to be so PC and avoid  fanning the flames :innocent:  Not criticizing just noting in passing.

I agree strongly with Stardusk on this, there is no way to make the Infiltrator less OP without breaking it and making it useless, they are walking a fine line as it is.

That said, TC does not work if you throw it on while the enemy sees you.  I have been hand cannoned to death by Phantoms while in cloak, running away after the situation I illustrated.  Call me a bad player all you like, you can be spotted with the cloak on, proximity and when you threw it on deteremine when you can be seen with it.  Sure I can cloak around a corner and walk into a circle of primes, but I will always get mauled if I try to pull that off when my position has already been overrun.

[Blind2Society]

"Infiltrators are taking all the kills/points. Nerf them so there's more for me."

/thread