349 réponses à ce sujet

[batlin]

Persephone wrote...

Read The Stolen Throne, the part about West Hill... He was more loyal to Maric than you know.

Cailan caused his own demise. There was no saving him. The retreat at Ostagar was the right decision, a tactical one, no more, no less.

I am against slavery myself.

The Tower of Mages' issues were NOT his doing. Nor were the problems at Orzammar.

Nor would he EVER have harmed Anora.

Just had to clarify that. The man isn't a saint. But he isn't a psychopath who "needs killing" either.

Whether Calian would have died at Ostagar had Loghain answered the signal is up in the air, but what's made abundantly clear in the game is that the reason the battle was lost is entirely thanks to Loghain falling back.

[PsychoBlonde]

"We feel that the focus in the previous two games got a little scattered and it bogged the game down, so we've decided to concentrate on deeper exploration of a more tightly-focused game. We realize that this is probably going to alienate some people, we wish them well, but this is what the game needs."

Preorderville here I come.

I think that's the biggest part of what's been holding the franchise back so far--something working to prevent potentials from being realized. In Origins, the whole Origins thing was really kind of a sideline. It came back for *maybe* a couple of scenes later in the game. In 2, some of the big talking points ("10 year time span", "framed narrative", "become the Champion") again, felt like sidelines. The 10 year thing didn't matter, it could have been 10 years or 2 months, same difference. The framed thing came up exactly *once* other than between acts, and it didn't matter that the story was being "told" in this way. And "Champion" was just a verbal replacement for "Hawke". Apparently everyone just got tired of calling you by your last name.

Pick one thing (or maybe a couple of things) that's going to really dominate the game, and develop as many avenues for exploring that thing as your imagination can create.

[AngryFrozenWater]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

TJX2045 wrote...

Ihatebadgames wrote...
 Hey how about no more bosses!

If you're not serious, then disregard this...but...



LOL WUT?

No seriously, please Bioware.  Do not go the ME3 route with no major bosses.  Having tactical boss fights in the DA series is something I've always loved.  Fighting a Dragon in DAO and DA2 was hard, as it should be.  I shouldn't be able to hack'n'slash them for 1 minute and win...and if people don't want to play like a tactician they can put it on casual and button mash through the fight.

Is it actually the fight that is essential, or a critical/interesting/challenging encounter with an antagonist that is more vital?

Essentially, is the ability to bypass a boss fight with cunning or something else still viable?

Extremely large health bars and foes that are invulnerable while they can still do damage and there is no way to hide plus silly long cool down times for health potions and spells which forces one to run in cicrles forever is definitely not the way to do it.

DA:O had a great approach to the events just before the final fight. In fact the whole game was focused on that. That's hard to repeat of course, but I think both the end boss encounter and fight are equally important.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 08 juin 2012 - 06:49 .

[Beck 85]

PsychoBlonde wrote...

"We feel that the focus in the previous two games got a little scattered and it bogged the game down, so we've decided to concentrate on deeper exploration of a more tightly-focused game. We realize that this is probably going to alienate some people, we wish them well, but this is what the game needs."

Where did you find this? That's pretty sweet news.

[PsychoBlonde]

Beck 85 wrote...

PsychoBlonde wrote...

"We feel that the focus in the previous two games got a little scattered and it bogged the game down, so we've decided to concentrate on deeper exploration of a more tightly-focused game. We realize that this is probably going to alienate some people, we wish them well, but this is what the game needs."

Where did you find this? That's pretty sweet news.

Oh dear.  Think about the context a bit, honey, it'll come to you.

[Allan Schumacher]

TJX2045 wrote...

1) I like the challenge associated with antagonist encounters, which is why I prefer boss fights.  The encounter in ME3 was alright but wasn't very challenging.  For instance, in Deus Ex Human Revolution, there are dialogue sequences where you can talk some of the villains down but you don't know for sure that what you're choosing will work or not.

You see their psychological profile sort of in the HUD but it's still sort of trying to get into their head without knowing 100% that you will win the debate.  If THAT could happen in place of boss fights if you guys are trying to avoid a lot of them, then sure. 

2) As long as it is optional, sure.  There were plenty of DAO moments I was glad I didn't have to fight a really difficult fight at times, but for the people like me who still want some awesome boss fights I'd like the option to just do the traditional boss style.

Even if there was an option to on/off bosses in game, as long as people hating bosses doesn't mean they are completely removed for the people who do enjoy them.  I grew up as a 90s kid where almost every game had a final boss or optional boss encounters, and I loved them.

They feel like epic battles to me as long as the antagonist isn't like Kai Leng.  I'm talking badditude where it goes from being a cool antagonist like Saren or TIM to an annoying one you don't ever care to see or look at or listen to.  The ones that make you cringe from how awful they are at being a villain.

And sometimes the random "boss comes out and we now have to fight" thing isn't that farfetched.  For instance, when going to get the Ashes of Andraste in DAO, you walk into a High Dragon's lair.  It's unbelievable to think a dragon is going to simply let you talk them down from roasting you alive.  And the NPCs tell us that dragons are pretty much everywhere.  To go through the game and never expect a dragon boss/elite dragon to show up is pretty unrealistic within the fantasy world.

I'm in the middle of a DA2 playthrough and I'm working on trying to get the Exorcist trophy.  i'm looking forward to the fight.  I don't know, maybe it's just me and I'm old fashioned, but there's something IMMENSELY satisfying when you kill a boss.  I don't mind dying 2-3 times in the process of trial and error.  Flemeth kicked my butt quite a few times in Dragon Age Origins before I finally beat her.

I can be pretty hard to please in this regard.  On the one hand, I like when I'm not forced to do boss fights because a lot of the time it may make sense to find an alternative.  On the other hand, I don't necessarily like it when every encounter can be avoided outright just because a game designer decided that fully non-confrontational ways to play are valid (within reason... the issue I have is when the ability to avoid seems contrived or forced just to provide an additional option).

With respect to always avoiding fights, it's another issue I have with "excessive player agency" at times.  I'm a hypocrite in that I typically like to be able to do the awesome things that I want to do when they're made available to me, but at the same time I can find it lame if I get the feeling that I can do whatever I want.  I can't do that in reality so I find it makes a disconnect.

Perhaps this is why I'm not a designer... >.>

[Beck 85]

Sorry it's been a long day. I'll just go hide now.

[Fallstar]

When it comes to boss fights, I think that having at least one compulsory big fight at the end is a pretty staple component of most any rpg.

However personally I like boss fights. Specifically, I like optional boss fights with a build up to them throughout the game, that are challenging and drop great items as a reward for killing them. Gaxkang from Origins, the Spirit/Lightning Dragon from Awakening, as well as Xebenkeck and Hybris from DA2, are all great examples of what I like in my boss fights.

So for DA:3 regarding boss fights, as well as the big baddy or whatever at the end, I'd like to see bosses that:

1. Are at the end of side quest arcs that run throughout the game. (And are therefore optional)
2. Are more challenging; think the Xebenkeck fight  levels of difficulty rather than Meredith. 
3. Have great rewards for those who take the time to complete the side quests and kill the boss. 

All of the above are done well in the quest line regarding the "Forbidden Ones" : Finding the Unbound codex entries in Origins and fighting Gaxkang, and likewise in DA:2 with Xebenkeck, was really intriguing as you slowly built this story up throughout the game, before you finally get to confront the boss.
I love this particular multiple game spanning quest arc, so please continue it in future games 

Modifié par DuskWarden, 08 juin 2012 - 07:29 .

[PsychoBlonde]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

With respect to always avoiding fights, it's another issue I have with "excessive player agency" at times.  I'm a hypocrite in that I typically like to be able to do the awesome things that I want to do when they're made available to me, but at the same time I can find it lame if I get the feeling that I can do whatever I want.  I can't do that in reality so I find it makes a disconnect.

I think that this issue is where establishing a functioning alternate-world physics comes in.  If the game is designed in such a way that it communicates to you what powers the PC has and what their limitations are, then you get to enjoy being able to pull off awesome stuff while *simultaneously* not being free to do whatever you want.

In DA2, the moments of badassitude and the moments of fail were entirely a case of "the game giveth, and the game taketh away".  You had no control over and no way to predict whether you were set up to succeed or fail in a given instance.  This was a massive sea change from Origins, where you were pretty much always set up to "succeed", instead you were choosing between TYPES of success (with some requiring certain investments), and whether or not you liked the outcome of that success.  It gets especially bad toward the end of act 2 and continues on through act 3.

I think the low point for me was with the business regarding the Qunari Emissary.  Nothing you did had ANY impact on the outcome of that quest.

It's kind of funny to me, because there's a somewhat analogous moment for me in Skyrim during the Forsworn Conspiracy because it's pretty obvious you're supposed to "choose" between Thonar and Madanach, both of whom are murderous bastards, but due to the underlying "physics" of the game I was able to satisfy myself by waiting until the moment when they meet and then just FIREBALLING THE LOT OF THEM TO OBLIVION.  Granted, I didn't get a nice, neat little "ZOMG YOU SAVED US FROM BOTH MADMEN!!" plot wrapup, in fact, I got a bounty in Markarth (40gp!  For fireballing 8 dudes in the street!), but still, most satisfying fireball ever.

I grant you there's only so much you can do about that in Dragon Age because it's a fundamentally different TYPE of game than Skyrim, but it might help at least a little if you guys work on the premise of setting us up to "succeed" and THEN decide just what TYPE of success you're gonna let us have instead of just dispensing success or failure on a whim.

[Chiramu]

A more cinematic feel to the gameplay would make me purchase Dragon Age instantly . I always dream about playing my video games like watching movies .

[Rabid Rooster]

That they ditched the DA2 art style and are making DA:O 2

[Nanuzsh]

Dragon's dogma style combat and gameplay with Bioware level story telling.

[jbrand2002uk]

No Loghain I Kill him each time as he's a traitor full stop,sleeping with marric's girl was bad enough but abandoning Cailan at Ostagar and blaming the Wardens for it while using Jowan to poison Arl Eammon put him beyond salvation for me.

Honestly I thought beheading was too nice the man should have been hung drawn and quartered so any DA3 would have to reflect any DAO import i made in which loghain was executed

[nightcobra]

jbrand2002uk wrote...

No Loghain I Kill him each time as he's a traitor full stop,sleeping with marric's girl was bad enough but abandoning Cailan at Ostagar and blaming the Wardens for it while using Jowan to poison Arl Eammon put him beyond salvation for me.

Honestly I thought beheading was too nice the man should have been hung drawn and quartered so any DA3 would have to reflect any DAO import i made in which loghain was executed

he could still appear...as a ghost or spirit.
sometimes in moonless nights you can hear him cursing the orlesians inside the hallowed halls of denerim^_^

[nightcobra]

Nanuzsh wrote...

Dragon's dogma style combat and gameplay with Bioware level story telling.

mixed in with a little bit of amalur's level/world design as well as a bit of its combat system  

[AkiKishi]

nightcobra8928 wrote...

Nanuzsh wrote...

Dragon's dogma style combat and gameplay with Bioware level story telling.

mixed in with a little bit of amalur's level/world design as well as a bit of its combat system  

They really hit on something with DD. While It's not new , SoC did the same thing. It's been refined and the character skillsets have become a part of it.

The only thing with DD is is takes a lot of your attention, so if they used that sort of system you would be looking at AI/State order control rather than direct orders like in DA. Would not make a huge difference to me since I play 90% of the game with the AI anyway.

[AkiKishi]

Allan Schumacher wrote...
I can be pretty hard to please in this regard.  On the one hand, I like when I'm not forced to do boss fights because a lot of the time it may make sense to find an alternative.  On the other hand, I don't necessarily like it when every encounter can be avoided outright just because a game designer decided that fully non-confrontational ways to play are valid (within reason... the issue I have is when the ability to avoid seems contrived or forced just to provide an additional option).

With respect to always avoiding fights, it's another issue I have with "excessive player agency" at times.  I'm a hypocrite in that I typically like to be able to do the awesome things that I want to do when they're made available to me, but at the same time I can find it lame if I get the feeling that I can do whatever I want.  I can't do that in reality so I find it makes a disconnect.

Perhaps this is why I'm not a designer... >.>

While it's nice if things go your way. If I feel I'm being pandered to just because I'm the PC I will lose interest.

[Fast Jimmy]

A speech skill that is leveled up and wildly varied endings, even if they are treated as non-canon in future games.

[berelinde]

Another thread reminded me of something that would make me buy 2 copies of DA3: Carver as a companion. I'd buy 3 if he were an LI. I am not getting my hopes up.

Edit: And I like boss fights. I do NOT like endless, meaningless combat that is nothing more than filler pretending it's gameplay. Making a 30-hour game into a 60-hour game because it is padded with 900 extra waves of paratrooping baddies is pointless. If my character survived the first six waves, throwing another dozen at him is not going to present any additional challenge. Smarter enemies are more fun than more numerous ones.

Modifié par berelinde, 08 juin 2012 - 01:17 .

[They call me a SpaceCowboy]

There would have be more than one thing to get me to pre-order DA3 or turn it into a 'must buy'.

For starters, no forced Origin client and no multiplayer that affects the single player campaign in any way.

[Persephone]

jbrand2002uk wrote...

No Loghain I Kill him each time as he's a traitor full stop,sleeping with marric's girl was bad enough but abandoning Cailan at Ostagar and blaming the Wardens for it while using Jowan to poison Arl Eammon put him beyond salvation for me.

Sleeping with Maric's girl? He never touched Katriel. Oh, you mean Rowan, the woman Maric did not love and the betrothed he cheated on? Uh huh...

Cailan....pffffft. After RTO, my last shreds of sympathy were gone. Ostagar was a lost cause from the start.

And I despise Eamon utterly.

But that's just me. Carry on.

On topic:

Another thing that would make DA3 a "Must Buy" for me:

Branching narratives ala TW2. But not just hinging on ONE choice. 

[xavim]

Varric comes into a semi major role and not just a hint of a background story.

[Ihatebadgames]

The boss fights I really hate are in Fallout:NV,U the gravely voiced dude.HATE a boss having a healer who has a healer while a bunch of cannon fodder attack in waves.In DA:2 Legacey fought this boss 17 years ago on the SNES,spinning flame blades,smack the statues,then a maze appears.If I can ever remember what game it was I'll post it,but I remember the fight and it was the same except 2d 3/4 overhead vs. 3D.Not thrilled with the Broodmother fights.I'd rather be exploring.

[Ihatebadgames]

PsychoBlonde wrote...

"We feel that the focus in the previous two games got a little scattered and it bogged the game down, so we've decided to concentrate on deeper exploration of a more tightly-focused game. We realize that this is probably going to alienate some people, we wish them well, but this is what the game needs."

Preorderville here I come.

I think that's the biggest part of what's been holding the franchise back so far--something working to prevent potentials from being realized. In Origins, the whole Origins thing was really kind of a sideline. It came back for *maybe* a couple of scenes later in the game. In 2, some of the big talking points ("10 year time span", "framed narrative", "become the Champion") again, felt like sidelines. The 10 year thing didn't matter, it could have been 10 years or 2 months, same difference. The framed thing came up exactly *once* other than between acts, and it didn't matter that the story was being "told" in this way. And "Champion" was just a verbal replacement for "Hawke". Apparently everyone just got tired of calling you by your last name.

Pick one thing (or maybe a couple of things) that's going to really dominate the game, and develop as many avenues for exploring that thing as your imagination can create.

Sounds all simplified for all the non-readers and pew-pew players I enjoy a few shooters,but pew-pews are those made for simple people,oh like the new ruler of Starkhaven.

[Giga Drill BREAKER]

TJX2045 wrote...

Ihatebadgames wrote...
 Hey how about no more bosses!

If you're not serious, then disregard this...but...



LOL WUT?

No seriously, please Bioware.  Do not go the ME3 route with no major bosses.  Having tactical boss fights in the DA series is something I've always loved.  Fighting a Dragon in DAO and DA2 was hard, as it should be.  I shouldn't be able to hack'n'slash them for 1 minute and win...and if people don't want to play like a tactician they can put it on casual and button mash through the fight.

but every boss fight in DA2 is hack n slash, DA2 combat is brutal, worst combat I have every seen in an RPG bar FFXIII