159 réponses à ce sujet

[wantedman dan]

Jenonax wrote...

Because sometimes when you are working on a project you get so close to it, so wrapped up in it literally becomes impossible to see any of its flaws. You come to believe its utterly perfect. You fully expect everyone else to feel that way about it too.

Reality is unpleasant when it hits you hard in the face that, no, your product is not perfect.

But its so hard to see when you're working on something you love.

That is why, if you're creating a product to be disseminated to the masses, you get some goddamn outside critique.

[BaladasDemnevanni]

Kunari801 wrote...

"Can't see the forest through the trees"

They were so close to the game they didn't see the ending as insufficient. Also, they probably didn't realize how attached to the characters some of us had become, I know it was a shock even to me.  If true and the ending wasn't peer reviewed that also contributed. They wanted us to speculate on the ending but they setup a very grim universe to speculate.

Lack of peer review can cause this and so can being "too close" to the product.  Mix the two togehter and well...  

They need a better setup if they want us to speculate to a more hopeful, uplifting, and whatever-other-emotions they wanted us experience in the ending.

Exactly. It's also the result of not looking at your work with clear eyes. Often, when you focus on editing something long enough, you're so close to the material that everything "feels" right and you can't really evaluate its strengths and weaknesses effectively. That's why you often need to shut your brain off for a few days and then return to the material. Often, you find flaws you didn't notice before.

[crimzontearz]

Opsrbest wrote...Hello there. I might have an applicable answer should you think its a nice day outside.

that only leads back to the original question





and may he be confined to coffee duty for the rest of his career in the gaming industry

[Clayless]

crimzontearz wrote...

not the point, I only used this as an example because the phrasing was remarkably similar

You did describe it a monstrosity, and ask how developers never foresaw something so "obvious", yet it seems most people here can't see what's so obvious about that Hitman trailer.

[crimzontearz]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...not the point, I only used this as an example because the phrasing was remarkably similar

You did describe it a monstrosity, and ask how developers never foresaw something so "obvious", yet it seems most people here can't see what's so obvious about that Hitman trailer.

in fairness that was referred to ME3 in my mind





with that said, a more accurate phrasing would be in this case "how did you NOT intend to provoke with that"





the juice remains pretty much the same

[The Spamming Troll]

crimzontearz wrote...

silentassassin264 wrote...

arial wrote...it is impossible to accurately predict the human mind.sad, but true

Well I don't know about this Hitman trailer because I am not reading the article but Bioware had the extra help of the game's story being leaked ahead of time and most poeple being infuriated with it then.  That led to Ray Myzika (apologies if mispelled) having the letter to fans about how they were listening the fan feedback, etc etc and then they released the same ending which was predictably met with backlash.  There was no excuse for Bioware "not predicting this" since they got a preview of the discontent with the leak and then ignored it.

forgot about that

herp derpery.

theres nothing else to blame it on.

[OdanUrr]

Kileyan wrote...

OdanUrr wrote...

arial wrote...

it is impossible to accurately predict the human mind.

sad, but true

No need to predict anything, a focus group would've sufficed.

NO NO NO:)

Make the game you want, if it turns out bad, then deal with it or even change it for the fans.  Please do not make game via focus groups. All you end up with is a slightly above bland product that is made to make the most people possible feel slightly above the emotion of "blah" about your product.

As for the Hitman trailer, it is no more offensive that any comic book female villains. The orignal article that caused all this crap was a single idiot throwing around the term rape culture for hits on his whiny article about political correctness and how games celebrate violence. 

Read: This is a game about a dude that assassinates people for a living. Argue about that as a game premise, but don't whine and complain that he killed some super assassin chicks in leather. We can't have a series of games about playing killer assassins, then only complain about the hot women he kills.

You misunderstood, I'm just saying that developers need feedback other than themselves because more than half the time they can and will be blinded by their attachment to the game.

[Devil Mingy]

Opsrbest wrote...

Hello there. I might have an applicable answer should you think its a nice day outside.

The effort to keep the final encounter with the Catalyst "high level" is probably responsible for a lot of the problems.

My theory is that Walters and Hudson were so familiar with all of the details when they began cutting the scene down to its bare necessities (in a manner of speaking), they forgot that the audience didn't know everything they knew. Therefore, a lot of stuff on the singularity and details for Control and Synthesis were left out (despite being in the leaked script, though still far too vague for their own good) because they assumed we would get it from the anemic dialogue they gave us.

Modifié par Devil Mingy, 07 juin 2012 - 02:57 .

[Icinix]

Most games used to be a link between the developer and the consumer.

Now there is a the marketer in between - the marketer does not listen to the consumer. They say what they believe the consumer wants without the consumer having input.



Its not about players being ******, its not about players being offended by sex or violence, its about players protesting that games SHOULD be more than that.

Modifié par Icinix, 07 juin 2012 - 02:59 .

[GreyLycanTrope]

Honestly I would not have anticipated this reaction for that trailer either. Aside from the scantly clad woman being a fairly sexist cliche I don't see the issue. Is it the violence? This is a game about assassins isn't it?

[GreyLycanTrope]

Devil Mingy wrote...

Opsrbest wrote...

Hello there. I might have an applicable answer should you think its a nice day outside.

The effort to keep the final encounter with the Catalyst "high level" is probably responsible for a lot of the problems.

My theory is that Walters and Hudson were so familiar with all of the details when they began cutting the scene down to its bare necessities (in a manner of speaking), they forgot that the audience didn't know everything they knew. Therefore, a lot of stuff on the singularity and details for Control and Synthesis were left out (despite being in the leaked script, though still far too vague for their own good) because they assumed we would get it from the anemic dialogue they gave us.

Well that and forcing the Catalyst on us to begin with. We've spent three games fighting Reapers not the bloody singularity, you can't force an new galaxy changing conflict on the audience in the last ten minutes and just expect them to go with it without questions and down right skepticism. Especially if the urgency of said conflict is not apparent in the game and you only have to word of your mortal enemy to go on.

[Devil Mingy]

Greylycantrope wrote...


Well that and forcing the Catalyst on us to begin with. We've spent three games fighting Reapers not the bloody singularity, you can't force an new galaxy changing conflict on the audience in the last ten minutes and just expect them to go with it without questions and down right skepticism. Especially if the urgency of said conflict is not apparent in the game and you only have to word of your mortal enemy to go on.

Yeah. I can kinda see what they were going for: a major plot twist where the Reapers are, in fact, a necessary evil required to prevent galactic civilization from irreparably destroying itself. However, even the best twists require a bit of foreshadowing and context, both of which are completely missing.

At the same time, I also question Walters' rationale here: if you don't want to reveal the mystery of the Reapers, why bother exploring their motivation at all?

[Kileyan]

Greylycantrope wrote...

Well that and forcing the Catalyst on us to begin with. We've spent three games fighting Reapers not the bloody singularity, you can't force an new galaxy changing conflict on the audience in the last ten minutes and just expect them to go with it without questions and down right skepticism. Especially if the urgency of said conflict is not apparent in the game and you only have to word of your mortal enemy to go on.

That was a big part of the problem for me. At the last second they spring this tech singularity thing on me. Then intimate that it is something that WILL happen, but it could happen in 50k years or 500 million years, the star baby really isn't sure.

On top of that, I've been inundated by friends about this Technological Singularity, books, article and supposed science channel shows. It is a pop culture thing, something interesting enough to grab people and make them think. It is not science, it is fantasy. Don't get me wrong it is interesting, I can see why a game dev would love to include it in their games.

Problem is the Tech Singularity should have been included as a central premise in Biowares new super awesome cyberpunk IP that is being released Xmas 2013. I would have loved that game. It shouldn't have been made the main villain in this military shooter game, where in the end, our hero was reduced to blue, green or red.

Lets be honest, this was not a story telling choice or an art choice. It was a choice of, we have to release this for this financial quarter, we can't do all the ending we wanted to...........this is the shortcut, hunker down, and say it was what we planned all along.

[Reth Shepherd]

Jessica Merizan herself, Bioware's head cheerleader (and I mean that in a nice way), said that she sat at the computer in shock after finishing the game for the first time. Jess Merizan, the eternal optimist. Warning signs don't get much bigger than that. (Though they had a second big warning when the scripts were leaked to mass fan disapproval, and that got ignored as well.) They HAD to know this wasn't going to be received well! So what the frell?!

[GreyLycanTrope]

Kileyan wrote...
Lets be honest, this was not a story telling choice or an art choice. It was a choice of, we have to release this for this financial quarter, we can't do all the ending we wanted to...........this is the shortcut, hunker down, and say it was what we planned all along.

That is sadly very apparent. Leave things as vague as possible and hope the fans will be willing to fill the blanks in themselves. Well we were given too many blanks.
It is not our job to make sense out of the clusterf*ck of vagueness and nonsense masquerading as art which we were given.

[crimzontearz]

Greylycantrope wrote...

Kileyan wrote...Lets be honest, this was not a story telling choice or an art choice. It was a choice of, we have to release this for this financial quarter, we can't do all the ending we wanted to...........this is the shortcut, hunker down, and say it was what we planned all along.

That is sadly very apparent. Leave things as vague as possible and hope the fans will be willing to fill the blanks in themselves. Well we were given too many blanks.It is not our job to make sense out of the clusterf*ck of vagueness and nonsense masquerading as art which we were given.

so...wait...let's say this is true

how is it a sensible decision, if pressed for time, to resort to an artsy depressing ending created in a vacuum as opposed to say....keeping it simple?

[KDD-0063]

because it wasn't double checked. Simple.

[Creepter]

crimzontearz wrote...

 remember Bioware's words on the ending "we did not expect closure was needed"

I remember reading this when they said it. I also remember being left speechless after I, moments after reading the qoute, went back to check how Hudson and his minions promised full closure for the characters and the story.

That just came off as a lame excuse. We didn't expect closure even though Bioware themselves promised full closure a week before the game's release?

[crimzontearz]

Creepter wrote...

crimzontearz wrote... remember Bioware's words on the ending "we did not expect closure was needed"

I remember reading this when they said it. I also remember being left speechless after I, moments after reading the qoute, went back to check how Hudson and his minions promised full closure for the characters and the story.That just came off as a lame excuse. We didn't expect closure even though Bioware themselves promised full closure a week before the game's release?

and I am sorry but the more I watch that video the more I get angry at Walters, there is this air of smugness around him

[Joe Del Toro]

Jenonax wrote...

I once wrote an entire novel about international spies that lived in a giant disused shopping centre.  All of them had first and last names beginning with the same letter going down the alphabet in a heirachy.  They fought an alien that took over a Russian terrorist

This sh*t better be on Amazon.

[Jenonax]

wantedman dan wrote...

Jenonax wrote...

Because sometimes when you are working on a project you get so close to it, so wrapped up in it literally becomes impossible to see any of its flaws. You come to believe its utterly perfect. You fully expect everyone else to feel that way about it too.

Reality is unpleasant when it hits you hard in the face that, no, your product is not perfect.

But its so hard to see when you're working on something you love.

That is why, if you're creating a product to be disseminated to the masses, you get some goddamn outside critique.

Oh absolutely.  But sometimes that's not enough.  and the problems with the game are so deeply rooted that a focus group was never going to be enough anyway.

[MaxMcKay]

actually there was a report posted on these forums showing that the game was play tested through to the ending and something like 80-90% of the play testers were NOT happy with the ending of the game. THAT alone should have thrown HUGE red flags.

don't have the time to go diving for that post again. It should still be on this forum.

[crimzontearz]

I heard it as a rumor

[Jenonax]

Joe Del Toro wrote...

Jenonax wrote...

I once wrote an entire novel about international spies that lived in a giant disused shopping centre.  All of them had first and last names beginning with the same letter going down the alphabet in a heirachy.  They fought an alien that took over a Russian terrorist

This sh*t better be on Amazon.

The sad part is its completely true.

Its not on Amazon though.  Never did get any money for that piece of crap.

[Gtacatalina]

I don't understand why Hudson & Walters didn't involve the other Bioware devs in their writing of the ending, or at least run the story by them making sure the lore and plot didn't have any loop holes.

I still can't believe what a bad job they did of the ending.