159 réponses à ce sujet

[crimzontearz]

I don't know GtaCatalina....hubris maybe?

but see, that Walters video kinda disproves the "they forgot the audience does not know all the details" theory

they knew full well, they just seemed to think we would be ok with this crap

[The Vanquished1]

They knew. The whole game blatantly ignored previous game choices, they knew it wasn't all representative of what they advertised. They advertised and spoke about 16 different endings,.... They knew.... They knew the ending was anti-climatic, that many consumers would be scratching their heads going WTF?!! They outright lied on so many levels even during release. They knew and people need to quit pretending that they all walked around with bags over their heads, clueless... They deviated from things so much that they had to know, at least give them credit enough to know their own product. Quit making excuses for them, their adults, not children...

[GreyLycanTrope]

crimzontearz wrote...

Greylycantrope wrote...

Kileyan wrote...Lets be honest, this was not a story telling choice or an art choice. It was a choice of, we have to release this for this financial quarter, we can't do all the ending we wanted to...........this is the shortcut, hunker down, and say it was what we planned all along.

That is sadly very apparent. Leave things as vague as possible and hope the fans will be willing to fill the blanks in themselves. Well we were given too many blanks.It is not our job to make sense out of the clusterf*ck of vagueness and nonsense masquerading as art which we were given.

so...wait...let's say this is true

how is it a sensible decision, if pressed for time, to resort to an artsy depressing ending created in a vacuum as opposed to say....keeping it simple?

They've also stated they wanted an ending people talked about, one that was memorable and not generic. Simple was thrown out the window from the start. From that perspectice ab ambiguious ending might seem like a sensible decision.

Modifié par Greylycantrope, 07 juin 2012 - 01:04 .

[Harorrd]

its because contovercy sells, because EA they destroyed one of their best selling RPG franchises of all time, they got tons of awards, "poopoo of the year" etc...

Some idiots use this to make trailers that people will hate and it will bring medias atention, and they will sell even moar

[crimzontearz]

yeah well they also said they were not gonna pull a "lost" and they would answer questions

when was THAT thrown out the window?

[Goaliebot]

Lack of peer review.

Ignoring fan feedback to the leaked script.

Why?

That's the tough question. Pride/hubris would be my guess.

[crimzontearz]

also...if you do not want to answer all the question and leave them for other games (you know....like Bungie/343i did for halo and the forerunners) that is OK...

that still does not edxplain their modus pensandi or the lies

[frylock23]

Jenonax wrote...

I once wrote an entire novel about international spies that lived in a giant disused shopping centre.  All of them had first and last names beginning with the same letter going down the alphabet in a heirachy.  They fought an alien that took over a Russian terrorist.

I thought it was the best thing ever written.  How could anyone disagree with my genius?  They did, violently and the thing never saw the light of day again. I read it now and its the worse piece of garbage I've ever seen, full of lore contradictions, plot holes and character assasinations.  See where I'm going with this.

Wow, I can see where that would be ... interesting. I can also totally see that as a Sy-fy Saturday TV flick, too.

No offense, but it sounds like some of the things I've come up with over the years. They also have never seen the light of day.

[frylock23]

crimzontearz wrote...

I don't know GtaCatalina....hubris maybe?

but see, that Walters video kinda disproves the "they forgot the audience does not know all the details" theory

they knew full well, they just seemed to think we would be ok with this crap

I guess they figured that they had an audience base that was comprised more of dumb gamers and less of discerning consumers who actually do pay attention to minor things like plot and lote and stuff.

[crimzontearz]

well fry if that is the case then why repeat the mistake and veiledly call you fanbase dumb??

[eddieoctane]

OdanUrr wrote...

arial wrote...

it is impossible to accurately predict the human mind.

sad, but true

No need to predict anything, a focus group would've sufficed.

But then games could be comparable to every form of narrative art, from plays to books to films. Everyone knows games are such an outstanding medium that the transcend any rules, even though every art form has conventions it can't break from without risking catastrophic failure, conventions that haven't changed over 5+ millenia of human culture.

You wouldn't want games to actually be judged as real art, would you?

[crimzontearz]

ba-zing

honestly tho....you kinda have to wonder. And there are more examples like.the ending to Halo 2 (which some people at bungie still consider awesome....) the entirety of Too Human and so on

I wonder how Mac and Casey would fare in a 1 on 1 argument about it without the option of givind palliative answers or dodging questions.

[frylock23]

crimzontearz wrote...

well fry if that is the case then why repeat the mistake and veiledly call you fanbase dumb??

They were hoping that we were the vocal minority. I'm guessing that internals showed this not to be the case, but it took time for them to figure that out. In the meantime, they compounded their mistake. Not only that, but the pointy-headed elites of gaming culture (i.e. the gaming media) were busy stroking their egos by telling them they had a perfect product on their hands.

Today's culture is obsessed with the idea of the elite. There are lots of people who will believe that up is down and down is up simply because some so-called elite somewhere tells them so. After all, that person ought to know better, shouldn't they?

[Jenonax]

frylock23 wrote...


Wow, I can see where that would be ... interesting. I can also totally see that as a Sy-fy Saturday TV flick, too.

No offense, but it sounds like some of the things I've come up with over the years. They also have never seen the light of day.

Oh that's nothing.  There was also the mutant plague released from the lost Continent of Atlantis and an evil cloud of nanites taking over the world one dead body at a time.

I cannot for the life of me figure out why I am not a millionaire by now.

[Apathy1989]

Jenonax wrote...

Because sometimes when you are working on a project you get so close to it, so wrapped up in it literally becomes impossible to see any of its flaws. You come to believe its utterly perfect. You fully expect everyone else to feel that way about it too.

Reality is unpleasant when it hits you hard in the face that, no, your product is not perfect.

But its so hard to see when you're working on something you love.

This. Its what focus groups are for, especially for trailers and other visual media.

[crimzontearz]

So now we add another question

How exactly did Mac and Casey think it was a good idea to

1: go at it blind with no peer review or focus group
2: ignore the initial backlash coupled with the testers opinions




note also...they thought it was a good idea NOT to allow people at work to be able to importtheir shepard before release (and that is a fact)

[teh DRUMPf!!]

crimzontearz wrote...

so....how is it exactly monstrosities like that are "missed"? how do devs NOT foresee things so utterly obvious and/or adopt this defense apparently genuinely assuming people would take it at face value?

Casey and Mac were the only ones that planned the ending. Thus, the ending fell victim to "group think."

[poundoffleshaa]

They can't be surprised at all, given the fan bases reaction to the leaked script which is 95% indentical to the current one. 

Modifié par poundoffleshaa, 07 juin 2012 - 02:48 .

[Creepter]

crimzontearz wrote...

So now we add another question

How exactly did Mac and Casey think it was a good idea to

1: go at it blind with no peer review or focus group
2: ignore the initial backlash coupled with the testers opinions




note also...they thought it was a good idea NOT to allow people at work to be able to importtheir shepard before release (and that is a fact)

Ego, most likely.
For how many years haven't gamers and the media championd Bioware as one of the titans; a company that writes great plots; great characters; great everything?
And once you have people telling you, for years, that everything you do is awesome; how easy isn't it to think of yourself as incapable of doing wrong?

Modifié par Creepter, 07 juin 2012 - 02:59 .

[crimzontearz]

but they were championed as Titans because of their methods

the peer review the writers pool working together...not in spite of it. By changing their MO so greatly (actually doing a complete 180 on it) they must have know there would have been repercussions especially with something THIS important

so what does that leave us with? hubris? EA's influence? I mean that's on the table too...they knew it was crap but EA forced their hand?

[Creepter]

I think it's easy to blame EA because, yeah, they're a cancer to the gaming industri. Their greedy demon handprints are all over the game, from the forced multiplayer to the desperate need to bring in new players in the final act of a trilogy to the obvious mass murderer working as the editor... But I think that the blight that is the ending is fully Bioware's fault. Or rather, the fault of two pretentious writers that let the succes of the franchase cloud their judgement and blind them to their own flaws.

[RavenEyry]

Jenonax wrote...

Because sometimes when you are working on a project you get so close to it, so wrapped up in it literally becomes impossible to see any of its flaws. You come to believe its utterly perfect. You fully expect everyone else to feel that way about it too.

Reality is unpleasant when it hits you hard in the face that, no, your product is not perfect.

But its so hard to see when you're working on something you love.

That doesn't make it forgivable though. There's a phrase used in the production of anything called 'murder your darlings' which basically means DON'T start seeing your product as perfect or you'll start failing to notice flaws.

[Jenonax]

crimzontearz wrote...

So now we add another question

How exactly did Mac and Casey think it was a good idea to

1: go at it blind with no peer review or focus group
2: ignore the initial backlash coupled with the testers opinions




note also...they thought it was a good idea NOT to allow people at work to be able to importtheir shepard before release (and that is a fact)

1. Ego and pride, there is no other explanation.. Satisfying, no.

2. Too late.  And because its easy to dismiss a couple of people.  

[Jenonax]

RavenEyry wrote...

Jenonax wrote...

Because sometimes when you are working on a project you get so close to it, so wrapped up in it literally becomes impossible to see any of its flaws. You come to believe its utterly perfect. You fully expect everyone else to feel that way about it too.

Reality is unpleasant when it hits you hard in the face that, no, your product is not perfect.

But its so hard to see when you're working on something you love.

That doesn't make it forgivable though. There's a phrase used in the production of anything called 'murder your darlings' which basically means DON'T start seeing your product as perfect or you'll start failing to notice flaws.

Its no excuse, don't get me wrong.  Its so easy to dig yourself into that hole and not notice at all.  Its so hard to claw your way back out again. 

But its no excuse for poor work.  That is why editors and focus groups were invented.

[crimzontearz]

@ Jenonax

wait...a "couple"? virtually everyone who read the leaked script was not pleased and a good portion if not all the testers (last one not confirmable)

how is that a couple??