159 réponses à ce sujet

[kalikilic]

because they do not understand us as fans and have forgotten what being a fan means. that could also imply that they no longer listen to us fans, something they once did, but now only claim to be doing it, without actually listening to us.

at least Bioware becomes a good example of how one company goes about trashing a game legacy. upcoming companies would learn from this as gaming companies shift it's focus from making money to make games - to - making games to make money.

Modifié par kalikilic, 07 juin 2012 - 03:27 .

[Jonesey2k]

 Rose tinted glasses.

[Jenonax]

crimzontearz wrote...

@ Jenonax

wait...a "couple"? virtually everyone who read the leaked script was not pleased and a good portion if not all the testers (last one not confirmable)

how is that a couple??

Okay a couple may have been underestimating it a bit, but in their minds they would have seen them as an insignificant number compared to the consumer base as a whole.

I'm not sticking up for them, nor do I think they are right. I guess I'm just trying to explain their thought processes as someone who has (sort of) been in that position.  They didn't want to believe their story was crap.

[Atakuma]

Why are we talking about the leaked script as if there was something they could do about it? They were too far into production to make any significant changes.

[mxfox408]

If the developers chose to side with ign over their you know customers, then expect to go down in flames because ign does not buy your products as we the customers do. Bioware gave us the finger after we told them the ending sucks with their bs silence. I mean I have heard gaming companies apologize for pissing off thousands of their fans but bioware gave us the finger. We wanted the ending retconed not clarity.

[Gyroscopic_Trout]

 I can't help but think of Diablo 3 and the controversy over its forced multiplayer.  Just like with ME3, the developers defended their decision to make people play a single player game online, complete with lag and server downtime.  Just like ME3 a throng of fanboys and the gaming media rose up to tell anyone who complained to stop whining.

Far from having entitled fans, games have entitled developers.  ME3 has made money regardless of what we here think about it.  They made a crap ending, knowingly or otherwise, and still profited.  What does that say about the relationship between developers and their audience?  Do they respect us?  Should they?  Have they perhaps started taking us for granted?

And on the subject of Hitman, I don't know if it specifically is sexist as it's so ridiculous it borders on self-parody.  But if you really don't have a problem with the sexualisation of violence in games, please go watch the Cross Assault video.  It's pretty disgusting.

[EricHVela]

According to a couple of BW folks (who absolutely loathe being quoted so I won't name names and I will merely paraphrase):
The endings were supposed to be open and allow people to decide for themselves what happened so they can have the ending that agrees with their personal morals without any choice being wrong.

It's quite avant garde and impressive in that sense IMHO, but it comes out of left field in a game that had almost nothing of the sort. It blindsides the players.

This also ignores that players of the ME series expect rewards as they have had throughout the series until ME3. Instead, they find that their actions had no rewards. Their penultimate choice to the entire series likewise gave no reward unless the players head-canonized it, which is a hollow victory without knowing for certain what happened.

Modifié par ReggarBlane, 07 juin 2012 - 03:58 .

[crimzontearz]

right Jenonax...but that's it tho

again if one simply looks at their modus pensandi one can only ask...lolwut? if you have two people telling you "well it sucks" you can chalk it up to "well, some people will never be pleased"..but when it's 18 out of 20? that's a 90% statistic...wanna call it a fluke? ok...how about when the leaked script hit the interwebz? How could it have been misinterpreted? Especially after saying "we are taken the feedback into account"

[ArchDuck]

arial wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

Wait, what was wrong with the Hitman trailer? Their latex outfits?

its depiction of nuns (aka, religous people got ticked)

Oh noes, irrational people being upset. I am so bothered. <_<

I mean the only complaint I can see is that it is not the best battle armour under the outfits. But the nun outfits themselves are a perfect cover for carrying weapons to a job (loose outfits, usually exempt from searches, people see the outfit not the person, etc).

[crimzontearz]

and that Reggar just invalidates the whole trilogy and its spirit...it's writing murder to have a whole series about choices and consequences but have the last choice have no "right or wrong" or moral repercussion. To top that, like some said, they willingly (and deceitfully) made the most important decision of the game to be "wether to play MP or not"

[Malchat]

ReggarBlane wrote...

The endings were supposed to be open and allow people to decide for themselves what happened so they can have the ending that agrees with their personal morals without any choice being wrong.

This has been brought up before and it's the best argument I can come up with in favor of the finale... it's certainly visionary and I can appreciate it in concept.

My problem is the way the choices are presented, using The Catalyst as a medium: the moment the child said 'I control the Reapers', no option coming out of its mouth would ever satisfy my personal ethics... no hero under my control is going to accept anything the architect of infinite and eternal cruelty has to say for itself... particularly because every option it gives you essentialy 'destroys' the setting, in the sense that its very nature is changed.

That the developers thought that I would perceive The Catalyst as an exposition fairy rather than the ultimate antagonist of the trilogy continues to baffle me.

Modifié par Malchat, 07 juin 2012 - 04:32 .

[ardias89]

Well people makes mistakes and it just proves they are human. What is wrong about this is that in interviews that was made, while the game was being made, clearly shows that they were well aware that closure, epic battles and choice impact was needed.

[frylock23]

ArchDuck wrote...

arial wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

Wait, what was wrong with the Hitman trailer? Their latex outfits?

its depiction of nuns (aka, religous people got ticked)

Oh noes, irrational people being upset. I am so bothered. <_<

I mean the only complaint I can see is that it is not the best battle armour under the outfits. But the nun outfits themselves are a perfect cover for carrying weapons to a job (loose outfits, usually exempt from searches, people see the outfit not the person, etc).

Excuse me? You assume that because the nuns pull of their outfits and underneath they're all dressed like a bunch of sex kittens that it's just religious people who are upset? I dunno. I think as a woman, I'm a bit annoyed by it because the assumption seems to be that if I'm a bad @ss hitgirl in order to really get down to business, I must dress like a hooker. Who cares about the nun outfit?

Oh, and yes, I do happen to be religious.

Modifié par frylock23, 07 juin 2012 - 04:36 .

[Jenonax]

crimzontearz wrote...

right Jenonax...but that's it tho

again if one simply looks at their modus pensandi one can only ask...lolwut? if you have two people telling you "well it sucks" you can chalk it up to "well, some people will never be pleased"..but when it's 18 out of 20? that's a 90% statistic...wanna call it a fluke? ok...how about when the leaked script hit the interwebz? How could it have been misinterpreted? Especially after saying "we are taken the feedback into account"

Dude I - I don't know, I'm just talking from experience.

I really am on your side on this one.  I'm just speculating!  

They're plonkers for having not listened.  But pride and genuine belief in a product can blind people for months.  Its only when you step away can you truly start to see the flaws you have created.

[crimzontearz]

I know you are on my side. Point is...these people are not stupid, they are cultured, intelligent folks....so....how does one explain their MP? This is slightly beyond simple miscalculation...do we perhaps have some premises wrong?

[Sil]

I sometimes think that they had partially expected some outcry ever since the script was leaked. It wouldn't surprise me if they realised it was too late to edit, so they let it go, but during those couple of months before release, they started getting prepared to extend the ending.

[incinerator950]

Atakuma wrote...

Why are we talking about the leaked script as if there was something they could do about it? They were too far into production to make any significant changes.

Apparently no one is around to remember having this discussion while the game was in production.

[frylock23]

crimzontearz wrote...

I know you are on my side. Point is...these people are not stupid, they are cultured, intelligent folks....so....how does one explain their MP? This is slightly beyond simple miscalculation...do we perhaps have some premises wrong?

You are making the assumption that they are cultured and intelligent. Maybe they aren't nearly as cultured and intelligent as they would like us to think. Again, one of the problems with modern culture is that we are only too willing to buy into the idea that someone must be cultured or intelligent merely because they say they are or have a position in society that makes us think they must be.

Look at how many people are willing to simply buy whatever the Catalyst says because he must be this super intelligent all knowing being. So, they accept whatever he says at face value without really thinking about it.

[Apocaleepse360]

Because let's just face it, a lot of fans these days will stick by the developer's decision, no matter what decision that may be. Developers know that, we know that, everyone does. Those who criticize games, even in a constructive manner are usually shot down by the fanbase. Perhaps they were expecting those sort of people to come to their rescue in this matter.

Modifié par Apocaleepse360, 07 juin 2012 - 05:01 .

[frylock23]

incinerator950 wrote...

Atakuma wrote...

Why are we talking about the leaked script as if there was something they could do about it? They were too far into production to make any significant changes.

Apparently no one is around to remember having this discussion while the game was in production.

I remember it, but at the time, I stayed clear as much as possible because I didn't want to spoil my experience of the game when it came out. I knew there was a lot of discontent over the leaked script and I knew there was a lot of trouble with the endings. I just didn't want to know what exactly it was because I didn't want to sour my own first playthrough unnecessarily.

[Jenonax]

crimzontearz wrote...

I know you are on my side. Point is...these people are not stupid, they are cultured, intelligent folks....so....how does one explain their MP? This is slightly beyond simple miscalculation...do we perhaps have some premises wrong?

I'm sorry, Crimzon, I know you are looking for concrete answer but I swear their behavious is simply the actions of blinkered people.  They were totally convinced of something even to the point where they would not listen to reason when it was offered.  Now the blinkers are off and they see the ****storm they've created.

No menace, no devious plot, just people realising they were wrong and dealing with it incorrectly.

[eye basher]

Not to people think alike no matter the ending be it fairy tale or the on we got someone was going get pissed and that's just human nature.

[Robhuzz]

I seem to remember one of the devs saying prior to launch the ending would offer a lot of closure and that they knew the fans were looking for that.

"We didn't know the fans were looking for closure" either means they were outright lying.. Err I mean giving a PR statement or they just weren't doing their job. Either way, they failed spectacularly and hurt BioWare's reputation so much it may never recover.

[ArchDuck]

frylock23 wrote...

ArchDuck wrote...

arial wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

Wait, what was wrong with the Hitman trailer? Their latex outfits?

its depiction of nuns (aka, religous people got ticked)

Oh noes, irrational people being upset. I am so bothered. <_<

I mean the only complaint I can see is that it is not the best battle armour under the outfits. But the nun outfits themselves are a perfect cover for carrying weapons to a job (loose outfits, usually exempt from searches, people see the outfit not the person, etc).

Excuse me? You assume that because the nuns pull of their outfits and underneath they're all dressed like a bunch of sex kittens that it's just religious people who are upset? I dunno. I think as a woman, I'm a bit annoyed by it because the assumption seems to be that if I'm a bad @ss hitgirl in order to really get down to business, I must dress like a hooker. Who cares about the nun outfit?

Oh, and yes, I do happen to be religious.

I bolded the part I was responding to. When asked why people were upset it was responded "because of the depiction of nuns" thus my intial response.

Then I went on to say I could see a problem with the outfits. Not because of the "sexiness" but because of the functionality. Really for me, they (or any character) can be as sexually dressed (or undressed) as they want as long as they are A) not purposefully dressed/undressed in a manner that hinders their abilities & relatively competent at their task.

But if the complaints are only based on sexiness or religion then that is ****ed up.

Modifié par ArchDuck, 07 juin 2012 - 05:36 .

[ArchDuck]

As to the ME part of this thread.
The Devs know fans wanted closure, otherwise they wouldn't have advertised about how much closure this game was to bring to the story.
Also wasn't there an article saying they did an internal Bioware pre-release screening that found a 90% disapproval rating?

Modifié par ArchDuck, 07 juin 2012 - 05:35 .