159 réponses à ce sujet

[shodiswe]

Devil Mingy wrote...

When you're on the inside, it gets hard to see the forest from the trees sometimes.

I get the sense that the writers (who are more familiar with the idea of the ending) are able to interpret and see things that nobody else can. It just didn't occur to them that we don't have the same information that they have, and are forced to look back at lore obscure and otherwise (such as Arrival) for answers and interpreting the ending in ways they did not anticipate.

I think you are right about this.

Still, the ending was a let down to me because all conversation options with the catalyst were cut or never considered.
I finaly stand eye to eye with the big citadel reaper... ready to pull the plug... and my shepard has nothing to say? My shepard was a blaberouth that talked half the galaxy to their knees agreeing to anything if only "the shepard" could stop talking and leave them alone   Anyway, seriously.. the Catalyst stole the floor and the spotlight and shepard just stood there dumbfunded.. horrible..
And that shepard has nothing to say to the catalyst?  no in conversation interactions or reactions worth mentioning? No dismissing the catalyst and it's crazy ideas?

[crimzontearz]

so, Fry...you are implying an Ipse Dixit situation?

[Woodstock-TC]

crimzontearz wrote...

 remember Bioware's words on the ending "we did not expect closure was needed" or "we are hurt you guys think the ending is not up to par''

OK, read this http://www.ign.com/a...ler-controversy

so....how is it exactly monstrosities like that are "missed"? how do devs NOT foresee things so utterly obvious and/or adopt this defense apparently genuinely assuming people would take it at face value?

either a marketing campaign or lacking professionalism. nothing in between.

[Ravenard]

Woodstock-TC wrote...

either a marketing campaign or lacking professionalism. nothing in between.

I agree, a trolling campaing for ME4 or lacking professionalism.

[Blacklash93]

Does the gaming industry not know what a test audience is?

[clarkusdarkus]

it's only a videogame trailer, i didnt think much of it other than cool. way too many overreactions these days. must be an american thing

[crimzontearz]

but they did have a test audience, Backlash....actually TWO

and both were very dissatisfied by the ending

[frylock23]

crimzontearz wrote...

so, Fry...you are implying an Ipse Dixit situation?

Not exactly. It's just that because we see these people in the professional positions they are in, we expect them to have some degree of authority or knowhow or expertise beyond ours and sometimes we ascribe greater knowledge to them because of it. That doesn't necessarily follow.

Often, they are no more or less intelligent than we are and just as fallible.  They may have more knowledge and experience in their field, but that doesn't mean that they will always apply it correctly.

[Atakuma]

crimzontearz wrote...

but they did have a test audience, Backlash....actually TWO

and both were very dissatisfied by the ending

Where did you get this information from?

[crimzontearz]

Fry: that is the definition of Ipse Dixit...pretty much to the letter

Atakuma: I thought it was common knownledge...Bioware did have a showing of the endings at one point and the crowd was less than pleased...then there were the people who read the leaked script AND the testers....whatwould you call those?

[Ianamus]

I don't think any of the reasons given in this thread shed any light on the matter. It really is just common sense, or rather a complete lack of it. How on Earth could somebody think that making a video where a group of naughty nuns are killed by a man in a violent and incredibly fetishised way would not cause huge controversy?  

And how on earth could Bioware think that fans would be happy with an ending with no closure? Or with a completely new character introduced in the last five minutes of the trilogy taking over the plot? These aren't just "misjudging the audience"- they are things that even the most basic of writers know to avoid, and should have been spotted ten miles away.

"We didn't expect fans to want closure" is, in my opinion, one of the silliest things I have ever read. 

Modifié par EJ107, 07 juin 2012 - 06:41 .

[aj2070]

crimzontearz wrote...

 remember Bioware's words on the ending "we did not expect closure was needed" or "we are hurt you guys think the ending is not up to par''

OK, read this http://www.ign.com/a...ler-controversy

so....how is it exactly monstrosities like that are "missed"? how do devs NOT foresee things so utterly obvious and/or adopt this defense apparently genuinely assuming people would take it at face value?

Simple. CaseyH surrounded himself with yes-men (aka the "professional gaming press") who get free pre-release previews under optimal conditions - the "Emperor's new clothes" group.  Second issue is that the writing peer review process was reportedly abandoned as the game got closer to release.

Modifié par aj2070, 07 juin 2012 - 06:40 .

[crimzontearz]

that still does not explain why AJ, it only explains how....

[frylock23]

crimzontearz wrote...

Fry: that is the definition of Ipse Dixit...pretty much to the letter

Atakuma: I thought it was common knownledge...Bioware did have a showing of the endings at one point and the crowd was less than pleased...then there were the people who read the leaked script AND the testers....whatwould you call those?

Yeah, I guess so. I was thinking things over from the fan perspective and not thinking that they were just saying, "It's good because we say so." but more like "It's good because everyone else told us it was" where everyone else was the gaming media.

And, I think the BioWare was as likely to fall prey to listening to the reviewers as we the fans are to fall prey to listening to BioWare. And they do it pretty much for the same reasons. It's a self-reinforcing circle.

[Atakuma]

crimzontearz wrote...

Fry: that is the definition of Ipse Dixit...pretty much to the letter

Atakuma: I thought it was common knownledge...Bioware did have a showing of the endings at one point and the crowd was less than pleased...then there were the people who read the leaked script AND the testers....whatwould you call those?

Do you have a source? People who read the script were mostly mixed from what I saw and I don't know what you are talking about with regards to the testers.

[Devil Mingy]

ReggarBlane wrote...

According to a couple of BW folks (who absolutely loathe being quoted so I won't name names and I will merely paraphrase):
The endings were supposed to be open and allow people to decide for themselves what happened so they can have the ending that agrees with their personal morals without any choice being wrong.

It's quite avant garde and impressive in that sense IMHO, but it comes out of left field in a game that had almost nothing of the sort. It blindsides the players.

This also ignores that players of the ME series expect rewards as they have had throughout the series until ME3. Instead, they find that their actions had no rewards. Their penultimate choice to the entire series likewise gave no reward unless the players head-canonized it, which is a hollow victory without knowing for certain what happened.

I could almost appreciate this idea if they had stuck with it. It wouldn't have made me like the ending any more, but it would've at least given me something. At the moment, I'm not even sure Bioware has a collective explanation on what this ending was supposed to accomplish.

My problem with this comes when they begin to tell us that our speculations are wrong, implying that there is a set group of canon events that happens after Shepard activates the Crucible, but they couldn't be bothered to show us.

It's also very curious that they didn't expect people to be displeased about paying $60 for an entire story, play through to the climax and basically get a black screen with white text saying "What do YOU think happened next?"

[frylock23]

Devil Mingy wrote...

ReggarBlane wrote...

According to a couple of BW folks (who absolutely loathe being quoted so I won't name names and I will merely paraphrase):
The endings were supposed to be open and allow people to decide for themselves what happened so they can have the ending that agrees with their personal morals without any choice being wrong.

It's quite avant garde and impressive in that sense IMHO, but it comes out of left field in a game that had almost nothing of the sort. It blindsides the players.

This also ignores that players of the ME series expect rewards as they have had throughout the series until ME3. Instead, they find that their actions had no rewards. Their penultimate choice to the entire series likewise gave no reward unless the players head-canonized it, which is a hollow victory without knowing for certain what happened.

I could almost appreciate this idea if they had stuck with it. It wouldn't have made me like the ending any more, but it would've at least given me something. At the moment, I'm not even sure Bioware has a collective explanation on what this ending was supposed to accomplish.

My problem with this comes when they begin to tell us that our speculations are wrong, implying that there is a set group of canon events that happens after Shepard activates the Crucible, but they couldn't be bothered to show us.

It's also very curious that they didn't expect people to be displeased about paying $60 for an entire story, play through to the climax and basically get a black screen with white text saying "What do YOU think happened next?"

Don't forget that they also started leaking which ending they thought was the "best" ending. If the idea was to let players choose and ending and leave them open ended so that they could all work according to the players' morals, then you would not, under any circumstances promote any ending as the "best" ending even if you only make that implication.

[StarcloudSWG]

 About two weeks before the "space balloon" copies were floated, Casey Hudson said in an interview that "The endings would upset some people."

So he KNEW they were poorly written and executed. He may have misjudged the scale of the reaction, but he DID know people wouldn't like them.

[frylock23]

StarcloudSWG wrote...

 About two weeks before the "space balloon" copies were floated, Casey Hudson said in an interview that "The endings would upset some people."

So he KNEW they were poorly written and executed. He may have misjudged the scale of the reaction, but he DID know people wouldn't like them.

At that point, he probably thought they were only alienating the happy ending with LI crowd.

[incinerator950]

StarcloudSWG wrote...

 About two weeks before the "space balloon" copies were floated, Casey Hudson said in an interview that "The endings would upset some people."

So he KNEW they were poorly written and executed. He may have misjudged the scale of the reaction, but he DID know people wouldn't like them.

Pretty sure that was a review by some other people then Casey.  If not, then another group of people who played the ending said that. 

Also @Atakuma, many of the Balloon players didn't give a ****.  Anyone else before that was unknown. 

[covertdrizzt]

hmmm.........Idk why so many people were offended. Now this is an example of when to use "artistic integrity" I think that the people who were offended don't have to buy the game. I thought it was a cool trailer. I bet the ones offended were extreme religious nuts that were pissed because of the nun uniforms.

[Ianamus]

covertdrizzt wrote...

hmmm.........Idk why so many people were offended. Now this is an example of when to use "artistic integrity" I think that the people who were offended don't have to buy the game. I thought it was a cool trailer. I bet the ones offended were extreme religious nuts that were pissed because of the nun uniforms.

I think the problem was that the trailer seems to be trying to get you aroused at the sight of a group of half-naked women being brutally murdered by a man. The nun costumes were just the icing on the creepy fetishist cake. 

Modifié par EJ107, 07 juin 2012 - 07:20 .

[shep214]

yep if the devs took a step back and viewed the end as a fan and player and not creator, they too would prob have said: wtf did i just watch???????

[covertdrizzt]

EJ107 wrote...

covertdrizzt wrote...

hmmm.........Idk why so many people were offended. Now this is an example of when to use "artistic integrity" I think that the people who were offended don't have to buy the game. I thought it was a cool trailer. I bet the ones offended were extreme religious nuts that were pissed because of the nun uniforms.

I think the problem was that the trailer seems to be trying to get you aroused at the sight of a group of half-naked women being brutally murdered by a man. The nun costumes were just the icing on the creepy fetishist cake. 

I still don't see why people were offended. This reminds me of fox news complaining about the sex scenes in ME.
I also think my definition of half naked is way different than your's.

[Ianamus]

covertdrizzt wrote...

EJ107 wrote...

covertdrizzt wrote...

hmmm.........Idk why so many people were offended. Now this is an example of when to use "artistic integrity" I think that the people who were offended don't have to buy the game. I thought it was a cool trailer. I bet the ones offended were extreme religious nuts that were pissed because of the nun uniforms.

I think the problem was that the trailer seems to be trying to get you aroused at the sight of a group of half-naked women being brutally murdered by a man. The nun costumes were just the icing on the creepy fetishist cake. 

I still don't see why people were offended. This reminds me of fox news complaining about the sex scenes in ME.
I also think my definition of half naked is way different than your's.

In my opinion the trailer just goes too far. Mass Effect 1 just had tasteful sex scenes, while this trailer seems to be verging on gore porn. Again, just my opinion, but I don't think that death should be sexualised. Or killing for that matter. The fact that it's a man killing them really doesn't help. 

And yeah... half-naked probably isn't the right term. I was going to say "scantily-dressed" originally, and that fits better I think. 

Modifié par EJ107, 07 juin 2012 - 07:42 .