200 réponses à ce sujet

[unchained wrath]

Why stop here.
let us nerf all dps classes in all games, so the tank is the only one putting up good damage numbers.
I see the infiltrator as a main dps class in this case and say the krogan van as a tank.
I think to nerf the TC would be absurd, they are meant to be power houses.
The gun on the other hand could use a slight de-buff, but even then i would not hit it with the nerf bat to much.

[heybigmoney]

Yajuu Omoi wrote...

You can only use its bonus' for maximum of TWO shots on the Viper, Raptor, Valiant or Black Widow, ONE shot for any other rifle excluding the Indra.

the AR has a 12 second "cycle", 6 seconds of which ALL shots are boosted with 70% DMG bonus.

6 secs of 70% and 6 seconds of normal damage. thats like a 12 secinds of a continuous cycle of boosted 35% damage and it also buffs your shields and negates a reload every 6 seconds without having to cheat.

The Infil can't match that. period. it can do 140 boost for one MAYBE two shots every 4.5 seconds and one more shot at normal then reload. (with a three shot clip) 1.5 for activation and use, 3 sec cooldown. and all that damage from the infil is focused on ONE target.
The soldier can easily spread their damage out between multiple enemies, mowing them down without breaking a sweat.

Sigh...

Cloak.  Fire black widow.  Fire proxy mine with 20% dmg debuff on every single attack afterwards.  Fire black widow with increased dmg from debuff.  Reload.  Cloak.  Fire black widow with increased dmg from debuff.  Fire proxy mine with increased dmg from debuff. etc.

I dont know what to tell you dude.  Read some more threads, watch some vids, just straight up get better at infiltrator because you are definitely doing it wrong if human soldier is outclassing you.

Modifié par heybigmoney, 07 juin 2012 - 08:46 .

[capn233]

Yajuu Omoi wrote...


You can only use its bonus' for maximum of TWO shots on the Viper, Raptor, Valiant or Black Widow, ONE shot for any other rifle excluding the Indra.

I think this is a little off, as have been a few of the other characterizations of cloak.

The damage bonus lasts for 2s from when you first use a power or fire a shot.  You can indeed get the bonus on 3 Black Widow shots as long as the BW shot is the first thing fired and you fire it at max ROF.  Feasible against bosses, but possible to do against smaller targets as well.  You can even squeeze in a PM or ED after the first shot if you are fast enough, which really only applies when fighting bosses.

As for the enemies seeing you, I can't explain why you are getting targeted in all the scenarios that you stated before.  That does not happen when I play infiltrator.  If you cloak in an enemy's vision they will blind fire, or if you get too close they can indeed see you.  Typically if you are out of sight, then cloak, you can run past practically as many enemies as you want as long as you don't bump into them.

The exception is this cloak glitch where you sometimes phase in and out of cloak and it becomes impossible to determine whether you are really cloaked until you make contact with the enemy.  About half of the time in games when this happens I will appear invisible, but I am apprently visible because I take fire, despite the fact that no unit should have seen me when I cloaked.  The nice thing is that you also get unreliable damage bonuses, and it likes to give you the max cooldown for cloak every time...

As for random other thoughts, cloak may indeed be too good.  Either that or the real mistake was putting some of the best tech powers on the classes as well (Energy Drain, Sabotage, Proximity Mines... not sold on Tac Scan or Cryo Blast although they are workable).  However, there is very little in the way of sensible suggestions as to how to modify it without completely ruining the class, or requiring a massive rethink of all the classes, powers, and the weight mechanic.  There are also some suggestions that would hardly accomplish anything whatsoever.

At any rate, if I ruled the game I might consider a small adjustment to the general purpose damage, reducing the base by 5 or 10% and the Rank 4 Damage Bonus by another 5%, and lengthening the base minimum cooldown to 3.5s.  The SR damage bonus can stay as is for now, or maybe give it a slight adjustment down (5%).  Not all that different from something I read above.

[Yajuu Omoi]

heybigmoney wrote...

 

Yajuu Omoi wrote...


You can only use its bonus' for maximum of TWO shots on the Viper, Raptor, Valiant or Black Widow, ONE shot for any other rifle excluding the Indra.

the AR has a 12 second "cycle", 6 seconds of which ALL shots are boosted with 70% DMG bonus.

6 secs of 70% and 6 seconds of normal damage. thats like a 12 secinds of a continuous cycle of boosted 35% damage and it also buffs your shields and negates a reload every 6 seconds without having to cheat.

The Infil can't match that. period. it can do 140 boost for one MAYBE two shots every 4.5 seconds and one more shot at normal then reload. (with a three shot clip) 1.5 for activation and use, 3 sec cooldown. and all that damage from the infil is focused on ONE target.
The soldier can easily spread their damage out between multiple enemies, mowing them down without breaking a sweat.

Sigh...

Cloak.  Fire black widow.  Fire proxy mine with 20% dmg debuff on every single attack afterwards.  Fire black widow with increased dmg from debuff.  Reload.  Cloak.  Fire black widow with increased dmg from debuff.  Fire proxy mine with increased dmg from debuff. etc.

I dont know what to tell you dude.  Read some more threads, watch some vids, just straight up get better at infiltrator because you are definitely doing it wrong if human soldier is outclassing you.

Didn't say a soldier outclassed an infil on a SINGLE target, quite the opposite.

The the reverse is also true, a soldier can easily out"class" an infil when it comes to mob kills. period.

And fyi, prox mine not only is only available for two infils, but only applies for a few seconds. not long enough to get three shouts off while cloaked. only one. Cloak -> Prox Mine -> shoot. rinse repeat...every 4.5 seconds. it'd be better to just shoot twice with 140% instead of once with 165%

cuz 280 > 165

Not saying prox mine isn't good. its great, helps the whole team. and can kill husks, canibal, and trooper trash...but when it comes to cloaking? Unless you're using a sungle shot sniper, you're better off just shooting twice.

Modifié par Yajuu Omoi, 07 juin 2012 - 08:52 .

[Biizz]

nerf biotic explosions. nerf tech bursts. nerf the geth plasma rifle. nerf the claymore. screw it, just nerf everything until we're forced to use only soldiers with Shurekins.

[molecularman]

Mysterious Stranger 0.0 wrote...

gilgamesh v9 wrote...

Mysterious Stranger 0.0 wrote...

gilgamesh v9 wrote...

I just hope Bioware doesn't nerf them... If they nerf anything it should be the DLC weapons, and even that i dont really care about

Tactical cloak just needs a harsher CD or a small damage nerf.

Not a big deal. 

Yeah, a small nerf i would be okay with, i just dont want them to completely ruin the point of the class. longer CD makes sense. the fact that i can cloak, reload my javelin (w/o cancelling) then cloak again is a tiny bit op... just a little

Reasonable! 

Most people want to just scream at the nerfers and claim that anything that gets nerfed no matter how small will make the class/weapon useless.

Just like how nerfing made the paladin,Carnifex,falcon, and QI useless! (Sarcasm) 

[Yajuu Omoi]

molecularman wrote...

Mysterious Stranger 0.0 wrote...

gilgamesh v9 wrote...

Mysterious Stranger 0.0 wrote...

gilgamesh v9 wrote...

I just hope Bioware doesn't nerf them... If they nerf anything it should be the DLC weapons, and even that i dont really care about

Tactical cloak just needs a harsher CD or a small damage nerf.

Not a big deal. 

Yeah, a small nerf i would be okay with, i just dont want them to completely ruin the point of the class. longer CD makes sense. the fact that i can cloak, reload my javelin (w/o cancelling) then cloak again is a tiny bit op... just a little

Reasonable! 

Most people want to just scream at the nerfers and claim that anything that gets nerfed no matter how small will make the class/weapon useless.

Just like how nerfing made the paladin,Carnifex,falcon, and QI useless! (Sarcasm) 

Its the fact that the nerf is NOT NEEDED. no matter how small. i could understand if they made it so the damage buff was ONLY for snipers. i wouldn't even call that a nerf. i'd call it a correction. due to the fact that infils originally were made for snipers, and had NO use of shotguns...

Modifié par Yajuu Omoi, 07 juin 2012 - 09:00 .

[nicethugbert]

It started when the Decoys (i.e., all the other classes) asked the Infiltrators if they had a soul ..............

[heybigmoney]

Yajuu Omoi wrote...

heybigmoney wrote...

 

Yajuu Omoi wrote...


You can only use its bonus' for maximum of TWO shots on the Viper, Raptor, Valiant or Black Widow, ONE shot for any other rifle excluding the Indra.

the AR has a 12 second "cycle", 6 seconds of which ALL shots are boosted with 70% DMG bonus.

6 secs of 70% and 6 seconds of normal damage. thats like a 12 secinds of a continuous cycle of boosted 35% damage and it also buffs your shields and negates a reload every 6 seconds without having to cheat.

The Infil can't match that. period. it can do 140 boost for one MAYBE two shots every 4.5 seconds and one more shot at normal then reload. (with a three shot clip) 1.5 for activation and use, 3 sec cooldown. and all that damage from the infil is focused on ONE target.
The soldier can easily spread their damage out between multiple enemies, mowing them down without breaking a sweat.

Sigh...

Cloak.  Fire black widow.  Fire proxy mine with 20% dmg debuff on every single attack afterwards.  Fire black widow with increased dmg from debuff.  Reload.  Cloak.  Fire black widow with increased dmg from debuff.  Fire proxy mine with increased dmg from debuff. etc.

I dont know what to tell you dude.  Read some more threads, watch some vids, just straight up get better at infiltrator because you are definitely doing it wrong if human soldier is outclassing you.

Didn't say a soldier outclassed an infil on a SINGLE target, quite the opposite.

The the reverse is also true, a soldier can easily out"class" an infil when it comes to mob kills. period.

And fyi, prox mine not only is only available for two infils, but only applies for a few seconds. not long enough to get three shouts off while cloaked. only one. Cloak -> Prox Mine -> shoot. rinse repeat...every 4.5 seconds. it'd be better to just shoot twice with 140% instead of once with 165%

cuz 280 > 165

Not saying prox mine isn't good. its great, helps the whole team. and can kill husks, canibal, and trooper trash...but when it comes to cloaking? Unless you're using a sungle shot sniper, you're better off just shooting twice.

Proxy mine debuff lasts for 8 secs.  And there is no 4.5 sec cooldown if used during cloak its the default 3 sec cd. Shoot, proxy, shoot is all done during a single cloak cycle with dmg bonuses with a 3 sec cd.  You are already hitting your target with a second cloak cycle with another proxy well before its debuff ends.

Soldier does not outclass against mobs.  Use a falcon x with disrupter ammo and max proxy mines with 4.5 radius.  Its aoe is monstrous.  There are multiple aoe builds.

Ive played this class every which way.  Snipers, shotguns, falcon, revenant, hell even scorpion builds are nasty. You are just doing it wrong.

[NasChoka]

Aiyie wrote...

because in a coop game mode it is clearly unacceptable for your teammate to score higher than you.

You nailed it 

My solution would be to make a fake score with random points so that every player thinks he/she was first. Less time consuming -> more time to make new weapons, maps, classes

[defleshing]

NasChoka wrote...

Aiyie wrote...

because in a coop game mode it is clearly unacceptable for your teammate to score higher than you.

You nailed it [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/grin.png[/smilie]

My solution would be to make a fake score with random points so that every player thinks he/she was first. Less time consuming -> more time to make new weapons, maps, classes

i support this.

[Poison_Berrie]

Yajuu Omoi wrote...

Its the fact that the nerf is NOT NEEDED. no matter how small. i could understand if they made it so the damage buff was ONLY for snipers. i wouldn't even call that a nerf. i'd call it a correction. due to the fact that infils originally were made for snipers, and had NO use of shotguns...

Yeah, why would you bother Infiltrators with the weight and cooldown matters every other class has to deal with. That would be terrible pedestrian. 
What poor utillity this power has;  you can only fire a power with it active, mostly have to deal with one 3 second cooldown, get a massive damage boost, are exceptionally good at capping objectives or rezzing your fellow player and dump some of that aggro on your fellow players.

Also making the entire bonus for Snipers, would make using other weapons or alternative builds impossible. Killing the diversity of the Infiltrator.

[CrashLegacy]

capn233 wrote...

Yajuu Omoi wrote...


You can only use its bonus' for maximum of TWO shots on the Viper, Raptor, Valiant or Black Widow, ONE shot for any other rifle excluding the Indra.

I think this is a little off, as have been a few of the other characterizations of cloak.

The damage bonus lasts for 2s from when you first use a power or fire a shot.  You can indeed get the bonus on 3 Black Widow shots as long as the BW shot is the first thing fired and you fire it at max ROF.  Feasible against bosses, but possible to do against smaller targets as well.  You can even squeeze in a PM or ED after the first shot if you are fast enough, which really only applies when fighting bosses.

As for the enemies seeing you, I can't explain why you are getting targeted in all the scenarios that you stated before.  That does not happen when I play infiltrator.  If you cloak in an enemy's vision they will blind fire, or if you get too close they can indeed see you.  Typically if you are out of sight, then cloak, you can run past practically as many enemies as you want as long as you don't bump into them.

The exception is this cloak glitch where you sometimes phase in and out of cloak and it becomes impossible to determine whether you are really cloaked until you make contact with the enemy.  About half of the time in games when this happens I will appear invisible, but I am apprently visible because I take fire, despite the fact that no unit should have seen me when I cloaked.  The nice thing is that you also get unreliable damage bonuses, and it likes to give you the max cooldown for cloak every time...

As for random other thoughts, cloak may indeed be too good.  Either that or the real mistake was putting some of the best tech powers on the classes as well (Energy Drain, Sabotage, Proximity Mines... not sold on Tac Scan or Cryo Blast although they are workable).  However, there is very little in the way of sensible suggestions as to how to modify it without completely ruining the class, or requiring a massive rethink of all the classes, powers, and the weight mechanic.  There are also some suggestions that would hardly accomplish anything whatsoever.

At any rate, if I ruled the game I might consider a small adjustment to the general purpose damage, reducing the base by 5 or 10% and the Rank 4 Damage Bonus by another 5%, and lengthening the base minimum cooldown to 3.5s.  The SR damage bonus can stay as is for now, or maybe give it a slight adjustment down (5%).  Not all that different from something I read above.

Poison_Berrie wrote...
Yeah, why would you bother Infiltrators with the weight and cooldown matters every other class has to deal with. That would be terrible pedestrian. 
What poor utillity this power has; you can only fire a power with it active, mostly have to deal with one 3 second cooldown, get a massive damage boost, are exceptionally good at  capping objectives or rezzing your fellow player and dump some of that  aggro on your fellow players.

Also making the entire bonus for Snipers, would make using other weapons or alternative builds impossible. Killing the diversity of the Infiltrator.

Honestly the bigest problem I find with tactical cloak that needs adressing is how it overrides the cooldown of any other ability used while cloaked.  while some might find it a "feature" i find it down right disgusting. every other class msut deal with the weight of the weaposn they bring to the fight. Infiltrators? Nah only if we sit in cloak for 10 seconds or so. Seriosuly?

It'd be great if Bioware could set TC on it's own cooldown  that way these long cooldown powers wouldn't be getting spamed in cloak cycles every 3 seconds  and yet cloak it self could still be spamed in it's existing 3sec cycle set up. 

Modifié par CrashLegacy, 07 juin 2012 - 10:42 .

[Kildin_of_the_Volus]

Cause they want to balance an entire class around one new weapon.

[Atheosis]

Immortal Strife wrote...

Atheosis wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

The class is not broken whatsoever, it's the gun.

Just the other night I was playing a GI with an Incisor and I doubled the score of the second player on my team during a successful Gold run.  With the Incisor.  The INCISOR...

Haha, that's a good one, stop fibbing, you so funny.

You're free to not believe me, but it's true...

Modifié par Atheosis, 07 juin 2012 - 11:54 .

[Atheosis]

All the people arguing that there's nothing wrong must be playing a different class than me. I almost feel like I'm cheating when I play Infiltrators, especially the GI.

Modifié par Atheosis, 07 juin 2012 - 12:05 .

[Frost Spectre]

I don't think it's a nerf, more like fix to a bug, since Tactical Cloak has evolution known as "Bonus Power" which allows 1 power use without decloaking or recharge cycle.

At the moment Tact Cloak has delayed decloak that allows power use without triggering used power recharge cycle and possibility to pull few additional shots with or without using power while cloaked.

[SinerAthin]

Real people asks for buffs for the other classes.

[Atheosis]

SinerAthin wrote...

Real people asks for buffs for the other classes.

It's going to take an unholy amount of buffing to bring the other classes up to the GI's level, and when it's done Gold will be the new Bronze.

[TheMightyG00sh]

a good infiltrator can get an almost permanent 1.9x damage boost to any non-sniper a 2.3x boost to snipers. And that's before factoring in the "lesser" powers. It can also render the user invisible shifting aggro to EVERYONE ELSE. Cloak also provides users with free powers without selecting Bonus Power as an evolution. Also Cloak can completely ignore weapon weight. Besides if nothing else pleases you hasn't the mass outbreak of infiltrator speed runs persuaded you of nothing? (And don't say: "yeah the Claymore is OP" because honestly if you slap a Claymore on a Salarian Engineer I doubt you could get such a quick run. And yes Arc Grenades are also OP...

[Fenrisfil]

The cloak ability has to be the most useful one in the game. It is useful for offense, defense and tackling objectives. Basically for everything that you need to do in the current MP set up, this is the ability that helps the most with it.

But is it overpowered? That's a good question and worth debate. I think we have to factor in a number of things. First of all, the Infiltrator is by a huge margin the most popular class group in the game. That in itself makes it harder to play non-infiltrators because you draw so much more heat. The number of times I see three infiltrators in a lobby is just plain silly. Now I just make myself the fourth rather then trying to be the only guy that can't shed heat. Maybe if I had a Kroguard that would work, but I don't so usually just switch to GI or SI.

Secondly Infiltrators key ability is one that means they don' t have to rely so much on their squad mates. It doesn't force Infiltrators to not be team players, but it does support people that would rather play the loner (save for the odd rez).

Finally the set up of the class is one that is geared towards easily and regularly clocking up a high point score, which despite people saying it means nothing, people do take note of it. Certainly I would say it likely irritates people that come fourth on that list and see an infiltrator first with four times their point total. Of course another thing people say is "it's a team game, if one guy is the hero, you all win", which is all well and good, but most people would rather be the hero then the vicarious support.

So does it need nerfing? Not sure, but perhaps some kind of tweaking would be an idea. Maybe charge up the cloaked damage bonus. That would reduce the DPS while maintaining shot power and also force many infiltrators to have to be more careful of their cooldown times. As a compromise maybe staying in cloak for a long time could increase the damage bonus over where it currently is, that way they will perform a more heavy duty sniping role rather then just annihilating everything quickly and indiscriminately. Overall DPS would still be lower, but they could pack more of a wollop then ever and IMHO be more like a stealth/sniper class should function.

[TheMightyG00sh]

First of all: wollop?

Secondly those changes could work though I'd prefer if they changed the Sniper Damage bonus to Power Damage bonus and maybe increase minimum cooldown. It wouldn't change much but being able to Cloak send two Arc Grenades the enemies ay and then Reload Cancel Claymore everyone is rediculous especially when your only in sight for maybe one Claymore shot. Also perhaps they could switch the AR and TC damage bonus so Adrenaline Rush as the 20% higher bonus.Though if they went this route and took away the Sniper Damagethey'd have to keep the 3 second recharge.

[Jeffry]

TheMightyG00sh wrote...

First of all: wollop?

Secondly those changes could work though I'd prefer if they changed the Sniper Damage bonus to Power Damage bonus and maybe increase minimum cooldown. It wouldn't change much but being able to Cloak send two Arc Grenades the enemies ay and then Reload Cancel Claymore everyone is rediculous especially when your only in sight for maybe one Claymore shot. Also perhaps they could switch the AR and TC damage bonus so Adrenaline Rush as the 20% higher bonus.Though if they went this route and took away the Sniper Damagethey'd have to keep the 3 second recharge.

its supposed to be wallop, you dont know what "pack a wallop" means or youre pointing out other ppls typos?

why on earth boost something like AR? soldiers are fine atm, nerfed by the HS removal on bosses though, but still fine, one of the last classes that needs tweaking, if you boost AR, you have to boost Marksman and Bloodlust dmg potential aswell and add dmg bonuses to Fortification and Blade Armor, because there would be no point in playing any other soldier than human (btw there is no point in playing krogan or batarian either atm, at least on gold)

and no, the rank 6 evo should stay as sniper dmg bonus, the Salarian Infiltrator is already able to do more tech dmg than Salarian Engineer and also sniper rifles are supposed to be the main wpn for Infs, in order to bring them a bit closer to other pure dmg chars you have to reduce the dmg bonus from rank 1 and 4, Id say each by 10%, you would have +70% to all dmg / +110% to sniper rifles, still very strong and infs would still be able to outperfom everyone, just not as ridiculously easily as they are able to do now (and Im talking about infs with Valiant / Black Widow, not Krysae, thats a whole other story)

Modifié par Jeffry, 07 juin 2012 - 02:41 .

[Yajuu Omoi]

heybigmoney wrote...

Yajuu Omoi wrote...

heybigmoney wrote...

 

Yajuu Omoi wrote...


You can only use its bonus' for maximum of TWO shots on the Viper, Raptor, Valiant or Black Widow, ONE shot for any other rifle excluding the Indra.

the AR has a 12 second "cycle", 6 seconds of which ALL shots are boosted with 70% DMG bonus.

6 secs of 70% and 6 seconds of normal damage. thats like a 12 secinds of a continuous cycle of boosted 35% damage and it also buffs your shields and negates a reload every 6 seconds without having to cheat.

The Infil can't match that. period. it can do 140 boost for one MAYBE two shots every 4.5 seconds and one more shot at normal then reload. (with a three shot clip) 1.5 for activation and use, 3 sec cooldown. and all that damage from the infil is focused on ONE target.
The soldier can easily spread their damage out between multiple enemies, mowing them down without breaking a sweat.

Sigh...

Cloak.  Fire black widow.  Fire proxy mine with 20% dmg debuff on every single attack afterwards.  Fire black widow with increased dmg from debuff.  Reload.  Cloak.  Fire black widow with increased dmg from debuff.  Fire proxy mine with increased dmg from debuff. etc.

I dont know what to tell you dude.  Read some more threads, watch some vids, just straight up get better at infiltrator because you are definitely doing it wrong if human soldier is outclassing you.

Didn't say a soldier outclassed an infil on a SINGLE target, quite the opposite.

The the reverse is also true, a soldier can easily out"class" an infil when it comes to mob kills. period.

And fyi, prox mine not only is only available for two infils, but only applies for a few seconds. not long enough to get three shouts off while cloaked. only one. Cloak -> Prox Mine -> shoot. rinse repeat...every 4.5 seconds. it'd be better to just shoot twice with 140% instead of once with 165%

cuz 280 > 165

Not saying prox mine isn't good. its great, helps the whole team. and can kill husks, canibal, and trooper trash...but when it comes to cloaking? Unless you're using a sungle shot sniper, you're better off just shooting twice.

Proxy mine debuff lasts for 8 secs.  And there is no 4.5 sec cooldown if used during cloak its the default 3 sec cd. Shoot, proxy, shoot is all done during a single cloak cycle with dmg bonuses with a 3 sec cd.  You are already hitting your target with a second cloak cycle with another proxy well before its debuff ends.

Soldier does not outclass against mobs.  Use a falcon x with disrupter ammo and max proxy mines with 4.5 radius.  Its aoe is monstrous.  There are multiple aoe builds.

Ive played this class every which way.  Snipers, shotguns, falcon, revenant, hell even scorpion builds are nasty. You are just doing it wrong.

Hello? You need to read the whole post.

1.5 Seconds to activate, take shot/use poer. and then break. then the 3 second cooldown after. = 4.5 seconds. 

And i know there are other builds. there are sniper builds for a soldier too.

I'm talking about what they are MEANT to to. and yes, a soldier spec'd for AoE dmg with a Falcon X would do MUCH better than any Infil could.

Multiple Grenades + Falcon +70% all shots >>> 1 Prox Mine + Falcon +90% first 1-2 shots

[Yajuu Omoi]

TheMightyG00sh wrote...
Arc Grenades are also OP...

...Here we go... <_<
 NERF ALL THE THINGS!!!

Modifié par Yajuu Omoi, 07 juin 2012 - 02:46 .