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Minority complaining about the Krysae - an open letter to BioWare voicing my concerns


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#51
Apl_Juice

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neteng101 wrote...

1337haxwtg wrote...

I'm sick of moronic posts labeling us as "nerfers." We want BALANCE, NOT TO NERF EVERYTHING.


You want samenesss and a level playing field.  Balance is not the same thing.  Balance just ensures that the weak its too terrible and the great doesn't behave like a one hit kill everything nuke.  You refuse to accept the proper definition of balance, and then get upset when you get the wrong label attached.  I guess I'll just label you as "boring" cause that's basically what the balance side of the nerfers want in the game.

Stuff like the Viper and Incisor are perfectly fine needing no buffs.  The Krysae is great for some but not OP...  speed runs I've seen, why its quicker is simply because its easy to use, so people don't have to spend as much time taking aim at their targets.  Its not game breaking in any way.

And the balance in the game is right...  as you increase the difficulty rating from Bronze, to Silver, to Gold, you should find less and less viable setups.  This is part and parcel of the game...  choosing skills, characters, weapons...  not just what happens in those 11 waves.  This shows the balance is pretty good overall in the game.

Your wrong understaing of "balance" just makes everything equally viable thus it doesn't matter anymore what anyone uses or picks in skill trees, etc.  Its ultimately boring...  and you only look at the game from one perspective ie. Gold.  So I guess if you want a better label, narrow minded and selfish would be rather appropriate?

Another thing, people don't seem to understand that rarity =/= effectiveness either.  Rarity is the hardness to obtain something in the game, not necessarily how effective the item has to be.  And there seems to be some misunderstanding between ultra-rare and promotional as they're different as well...  the Collector rifle is not much use but people hardly talk about that, just the Eagle.  So the Eagle is a better Phalanx in a designer's perspective...  that shouldn't mean it has to outdo the Carnifex/Paladin.  That's just the stupidity of those who do not understand "balance".

Which is why BW should quit listening to the vocal minority here, their perspectives are so skewed that the game just gets worse as they tweak (we've already seen Geth become boring/drag, removal of fun headshots, etc).




We've argued and discussed this topic before, I'm pretty sure.

I'm still not understanding how player choice and more preperation and thought towards loadout and build equates to boring gameplay. In fact, you've claimed multiple times that a set-in-stone "best weapon of each category" is somehow NOT boring. That's just as much an opinion as ours is on what does and doesn't need to be balanced.

You're also using the same arguments, mostly against stuff no one even wants or ever wanted.
-No one said that rarity determines a weapon's effectiveness. If anything, an item's rarity only lends itself as a single metric upon which one can determine that weapon's effectiveness.
-You're claiming that preperation is important, yet with your setup, one person can make a build and everyone should follow and only that and few other builds should be viable. How is that NOT one dimensional?
-Also, you're putting BioWare's past fixes in our mouths. Not one person asked for Geth tweaks, removal of boss headshots, the Falcon, or the QFI. Not one.

#52
ABjerre

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count_4 wrote...
You do realize that "Noone knows what the 99,9% of so far silent players think " is about the exact opposite of the "99,9% of the players like the Krysae" you (originally) wrote in your OP, right?
Ten more iterations of your OP and we might actually end up with a decent post.


This very nicely proves my point regarding people not being satisfied. You said that it was a wrong statement, so i changed it to represent what i actually ment with it. And now you moan that i'm going in the exact opposite direction than what i started out with. Good job.

And no, i am not changing direction. Saying that they dont like it would be going in the exact opposite direction - saying that they may well like it because they are silent reserves their right to be neutral in the matter too, leaving it to be unknown. Do you see the difference?

Modifié par ABjerre, 07 juin 2012 - 01:02 .


#53
Olaf_de_IJsbeer

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TheMightyG00sh wrote...

Olaf_de_IJsbeer wrote...

I was disappointed to find that he didn't describe the "don't give a damn" people as total savages.


I didn't even need to be around to defend my own post.:lol:
And no they aren't. They just don't give a damn if it gets nerfed/buffed or not. I thought my post was quite well explained.


Don' t you worry, I was also simply making a historical joke.

#54
Stinja

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TheMightyG00sh wrote...

There are three types of balance stands: "DON'T CHANGE IT!" "Please, please, please change it Bioware" and "I don't give a damn".


You forgot the fourth group: "Buff it baby".  Probably very minority, but I would so laugh if the Krysae wasn't coded properly, and it should have AP and incendiary mods by default 
:P

#55
xtorma

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The weapon is going to get a nerf, how bad, or good, depending on the camp you raise your flag in is what we really should be discussing.

#56
AdrianC25

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I will be completely honest, i never cared about the krysae ... hell i have it maxed and never even touched it ONCE because ive been on a Soldier Harrier/Talon kick. Ive seen people use it and thought its fine, these people are pretty ok. I was more centered on honing up on my soldier skills and keeping happy with getting 1.2-1.5k and being on top of the board. (not for brag reasons but for comparing what im doing as a soldier vs what i do on infiltrator/adept/engi)

So just for the hell of it i tossed it on my GI jumped into a gold game. First impression was .. this is a weird gun and it annoyed me with how zooming was breaking stealth and the auto focus thing .. so first round or two im doing very very little.

I finally figure out how the gun works and get comfortable , nextr thing i know im smoking banshees and brutes and every other damn thing in just a shot or two , its so quick i check the game score card three or four times just to be sure this IS a gold match.

walked out of the match with 1.8k having touched either a geth or a infiltrator since the DLC was released (i mention geth because getting used to hunter mode again was a little bit of a strain)

personally I could care less, the gun SHOULD have been a N7 and even then its way OP. Im not hating its just a fact the gun turns gold into bronze with just more things to shoot, it literally melts everything. it IS the most powerful weapon in the game , by far stronger then any N7-X weapon, by a serious margin.

If it was a N7 rare, then either it would still be to much or then other n7 weapons need a serious buff.

#57
1337haxwtg

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neteng101 wrote...

1337haxwtg wrote...

I'm sick of moronic posts labeling us as "nerfers." We want BALANCE, NOT TO NERF EVERYTHING.


You want samenesss and a level playing field.  Balance is not the same thing.  Balance just ensures that the weak its too terrible and the great doesn't behave like a one hit kill everything nuke.  You refuse to accept the proper definition of balance, and then get upset when you get the wrong label attached.  I guess I'll just label you as "boring" cause that's basically what the balance side of the nerfers want in the game.

Stuff like the Viper and Incisor are perfectly fine needing no buffs.  The Krysae is great for some but not OP...  speed runs I've seen, why its quicker is simply because its easy to use, so people don't have to spend as much time taking aim at their targets.  Its not game breaking in any way.

And the balance in the game is right...  as you increase the difficulty rating from Bronze, to Silver, to Gold, you should find less and less viable setups.  This is part and parcel of the game...  choosing skills, characters, weapons...  not just what happens in those 11 waves.  This shows the balance is pretty good overall in the game.

Your wrong understaing of "balance" just makes everything equally viable thus it doesn't matter anymore what anyone uses or picks in skill trees, etc.  Its ultimately boring...  and you only look at the game from one perspective ie. Gold.  So I guess if you want a better label, narrow minded and selfish would be rather appropriate?

Another thing, people don't seem to understand that rarity =/= effectiveness either.  Rarity is the hardness to obtain something in the game, not necessarily how effective the item has to be.  And there seems to be some misunderstanding between ultra-rare and promotional as they're different as well...  the Collector rifle is not much use but people hardly talk about that, just the Eagle.  So the Eagle is a better Phalanx in a designer's perspective...  that shouldn't mean it has to outdo the Carnifex/Paladin.  That's just the stupidity of those who do not understand "balance".

Which is why BW should quit listening to the vocal minority here, their perspectives are so skewed that the game just gets worse as they tweak (we've already seen Geth become boring/drag, removal of fun headshots, etc).

Balance doesn't make everything the same exact thing, it just makes many viable options. Those options will still come in many flavors (different types of abilities, explosive or hitscan weapons, various weapon functionality differences) The more options, the more variation, and the more fun you can have with the game. Again, that doesn't mean everything will be the same.

Notice how the best you can do to prove your own points is to insult somebody or act like we don't understand the definition of a word?

The Krysae requires zero skill, zero aim, and zero thought on an infiltrator. The problem lies in the synergy between infiltrators and easily abused weapons, such as the Krysae. It's just that the Krysae is overwhelmingly imbalanced, and it gives me a headache when people try to say it isn't. I can't grasp the illogical thought process behind that, which is why I don't pretend to know what you think.

#58
Pitznik

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neteng101 wrote...

1337haxwtg wrote...

I'm sick of moronic posts labeling us as "nerfers." We want BALANCE, NOT TO NERF EVERYTHING.


You want samenesss and a level playing field.  Balance is not the same thing.  Balance just ensures that the weak its too terrible and the great doesn't behave like a one hit kill everything nuke.  You refuse to accept the proper definition of balance, and then get upset when you get the wrong label attached.  I guess I'll just label you as "boring" cause that's basically what the balance side of the nerfers want in the game.

Stuff like the Viper and Incisor are perfectly fine needing no buffs.  The Krysae is great for some but not OP...  speed runs I've seen, why its quicker is simply because its easy to use, so people don't have to spend as much time taking aim at their targets.  Its not game breaking in any way.

And the balance in the game is right...  as you increase the difficulty rating from Bronze, to Silver, to Gold, you should find less and less viable setups.  This is part and parcel of the game...  choosing skills, characters, weapons...  not just what happens in those 11 waves.  This shows the balance is pretty good overall in the game.

Your wrong understaing of "balance" just makes everything equally viable thus it doesn't matter anymore what anyone uses or picks in skill trees, etc.  Its ultimately boring...  and you only look at the game from one perspective ie. Gold.  So I guess if you want a better label, narrow minded and selfish would be rather appropriate?

Another thing, people don't seem to understand that rarity =/= effectiveness either.  Rarity is the hardness to obtain something in the game, not necessarily how effective the item has to be.  And there seems to be some misunderstanding between ultra-rare and promotional as they're different as well...  the Collector rifle is not much use but people hardly talk about that, just the Eagle.  So the Eagle is a better Phalanx in a designer's perspective...  that shouldn't mean it has to outdo the Carnifex/Paladin.  That's just the stupidity of those who do not understand "balance".

Which is why BW should quit listening to the vocal minority here, their perspectives are so skewed that the game just gets worse as they tweak (we've already seen Geth become boring/drag, removal of fun headshots, etc).

How is having everything equally viable more boring than having less viable options? When every build (and by build I mean not random choice of evolutions, but some well-thought and synergized choice) would be viable, the biggest contributing factor would be a player him/herself. With more viable weapons you would see more variety and pick a gun you like the feel, sound of, and not necessarily The Boring but Effective Gun No 1, 2 or 3.

#59
Konane117

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Nerf infiltrators instead. Tactical Cloak is OP as hell...

#60
Ramsutin

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Konane117 wrote...

Nerf infiltrators instead. Tactical Cloak is OP as hell...


And by doing that you'll alienate ALL casual inf players*
Balance is +-0. Krysae+Eagle=0. There are good guns and there are peashooters. Some find use for the peashooters and make them efficient killers where others use nukes because it fits their style of play.


*my opinion, not every casual players

#61
nicethugbert

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While everyone focuses on krysae, tactical cloak giggles unseen.

#62
AdrianC25

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It would still be OP i think on other classes. its not infiltrators that broke this weapon, and i think they are fine as is.

the weapons certainly do not need to be "balanced" as in equal , that is why there are blue, silver , gold and N7 lvl weapons. obviously the higher the rank the better the weapon should be.

Krysae on the other hand blows any N7 right out of the water by a serious serious margin. im not hating because its "only a gold weapon" im saying on a 4 tier weapon lvl 1 being blue and N7 being 4 it would rank a 6.

if you dont think its crazy powerful and super easy to use then why care if it gets "nerfed" ? you can pick up any other gun and perform just as well just as easy right?

#63
count_4

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ABjerre wrote...

count_4 wrote...
You do realize that "Noone knows what the 99,9% of so far silent players think " is about the exact opposite of the "99,9% of the players like the Krysae" you (originally) wrote in your OP, right?
Ten more iterations of your OP and we might actually end up with a decent post.


This very nicely proves my point regarding people not being satisfied. You said that it was a wrong statement, so i changed it to represent what i actually ment with it. And now you moan that i'm going in the exact opposite direction than what i started out with. Good job.

And no, i am not changing direction. Saying that they dont like it would be going in the exact opposite direction - saying that they may well like it because they are silent reserves their right to be neutral in the matter too, leaving it to be unknown. Do you see the difference?

Your opinion might not have changed direction but your wording certainly did. I was merely pointing out that this change wasn't a minor one but a 180. You went from knowing how players feel to the opposite of making a point about not knowing it. 
I guess what I'm basically trying to tell you is that you shouldn't argue with people about points you phrased so badly that a 180° turn was necessary(in wording) later on to actually say what you wanted to say and then pretend to have been right all along. 

#64
Rifneno

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nicethugbert wrote...

While everyone focuses on krysae, tactical cloak giggles unseen.


You're kidding right?  "Nerf TC!" threads must account for 15% of Bioware's bandwidth.

#65
molecularman

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Dear ABjerre,

I find it impossible to take your post seriously. Your main point is that not all players are active forum users and therefore their opinions must be the same as yours. It also seems that you don't care about balance even the slightest. But this is not a viable reason to ignore balance on one weapon as it is a widely accepted fact that balance matters in all video games.

Best regards,
molecularman

#66
Rinzler

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Only new gun i hate is the Reeger Carbine and that's mainly because of the way it's being used. I've had games where the person with the reeger was just following my sentinel around shooting past me to hammer my targets and leave me with hardly any kills while I take the damage. 4 games this happened yesterday. I wouldnt mind if it was some tactic we came up with but it wasnt, i was just trying to enjoy my M11 Wraith and some puke is shooting thru me taking kills. ****ing Sucks when your screen is just a blue cloud all the time coz someones shooting thru you and you cant see a thing.
The Reeger is ME3's versions of Gears of War's SoS
On Topic of the thread tho the Krys is a good weapon, someone using that has saved my dumb arse more than once when I got in over my head trying to decapitate using my Vorcha. I like team play not zerging. Krys can be great for that. Pretty sure the Reeger can but the ease of it's use seems to attract the ****s

#67
Rifneno

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Rinzler wrote...

Only new gun i hate is the Reeger Carbine and that's mainly because of the way it's being used. I've had games where the person with the reeger was just following my sentinel around shooting past me to hammer my targets and leave me with hardly any kills while I take the damage. 4 games this happened yesterday. I wouldnt mind if it was some tactic we came up with but it wasnt, i was just trying to enjoy my M11 Wraith and some puke is shooting thru me taking kills. ****ing Sucks when your screen is just a blue cloud all the time coz someones shooting thru you and you cant see a thing.
The Reeger is ME3's versions of Gears of War's SoS
On Topic of the thread tho the Krys is a good weapon, someone using that has saved my dumb arse more than once when I got in over my head trying to decapitate using my Vorcha. I like team play not zerging. Krys can be great for that. Pretty sure the Reeger can but the ease of it's use seems to attract the ****s


Score doesn't matter and it's good for the team.  That's frickin' brilliant strategy actually (IMO).  Unless of course you were playing a vorcha and needed the kills for bloodlust, or krogan needing them for blood rage.

#68
Chealec

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neteng101 wrote...

Chealec wrote...

Please stop posting, I'm never sure whether you're trolling ... removal of headshots had NOTHING to do with anything anyone said on this forum - headshot damage on primes was NOT supposed to be in the game in the first place (according to the patch notes) - if you're really lucky the "vocal minority" might help get them reinstated.


You can read the patch notes and take it at face value - but the Geth changes all indicate one thing to me...  its the direct result of all the FBWGG whiners on the forums.

If someone disagrees, call them a troll.  Indeed, you are proving your validity rather questionable...  the vocal minority are in essense no better than schoolyard bullies, if you see how they constantly put anyone/everyone that shows a different viewpoint down and try to silence them completely.  You say others don't speak, but actually there are plenty of others that speak up for no changes, they just get drowned out and bullied off the forums for doing so.


I was implying that you were trolling because you always seem to couch your comments in a way that feels, to me, like you're trying to get a rise out of people, calling them whiners and nerfers and schoolyard bullies - not because of the opinions you hold.

You're drawing a conclusion that people complaining about FBW/G/G farming is why they removed the headshot bonus ... based on no evidence whatsoever. I'm basing the statement that they removed it "because it was a bug" on the patch notes released by BioWare - which isn't much evidence perhaps but I'll go with Occam's Razor on this one.

In the same vein of, drawing a conclusion based on FBW/G/G farming, I'd guess that was the main reason for implementing the new "pizza delivery" missions - it forces people out of cover and makes them walk slowly from point A to point B... seems like a reasonable way to attempt to mitigate FBW/G/G farming to me... but again this is based on no evidence whatsoever.

See, I don't mind if people want to keep the Krysae the way it is as long as they can offer me a reasoned argument as to why they want to keep it the way it is - I'll still probably disagree with them unless they make a really, really good argument but it's their opinion... however every comment you post, because of the way you phrase things, just sounds to me like you're saying "but, but, but I WANT my WIN button mummy, don't make the bad nerfers take it away from me!!".

(Granted I've seen some posts from "nerfers" (of which I'm probably one) that make me think "Now, show me on the dolly where the bad Krysae touched you")

#69
greghorvath

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molecularman wrote...
Dear ABjerre,

I find it impossible to take your post seriously. Your main point is that not all players are active forum users and therefore their opinions must be the same as yours. It also seems that you don't care about balance even the slightest. But this is not a viable reason to ignore balance on one weapon as it is a widely accepted fact that balance matters in all video games.

Best regards,
molecularman

Balance is a myth.

I use the krysae only occasionally because it is so sickeningly OP that it takes the fun away for me. I don't mind if other people like it, I have evolved far enough to be able to switch to another weapon and if someone outscores me with it, I honestly could not care less. The gun is a beast, not classifiable into any category, but it certainly is no sniper rifle. Something you don't have to aim with cant possibly be a sniper rifle.

Tactical cloack nerfers want to be able to outscore infiltrators, as nobody says I want TC nerfed so I would have more fun with it. Real well done.

#70
neteng101

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Apl_J wrote...

I'm still not understanding how player choice and more preperation and thought towards loadout and build equates to boring gameplay. In fact, you've claimed multiple times that a set-in-stone "best weapon of each category" is somehow NOT boring. That's just as much an opinion as ours is on what does and doesn't need to be balanced.


We might have to agree to disagree, but I'll attempt to explain one more time.

Choice and preparation is important...  to allow for this, you need 3 buckets...  not so good, decent, and good.  If you put everything into the same bucket and make all powers/weapons equally effective, then preparation doesn't matter anymore.  I don't think I've ever said of a "best weapon in each category" but having great weapons in each category is a good thing.  If we followed your suggestion, the greats will be reduced to mediocrity.

Choice and preparation is important as I've said...  again, part of choice involves having the ability to play the game in different ways.  Playing a less viable build/weapon/power at a higher difficulty level is a greater challenge, it leads to variety.  When you make these equal to all the rest, then it doesn't matter anymore, you're removing variety/choice...  it leads to sameness at that point, ie. the game will just become boring.

You're also using the same arguments, mostly against stuff no one even wants or ever wanted.
-No one said that rarity determines a weapon's effectiveness. If anything, an item's rarity only lends itself as a single metric upon which one can determine that weapon's effectiveness.
-You're claiming that preperation is important, yet with your setup, one person can make a build and everyone should follow and only that and few other builds should be viable. How is that NOT one dimensional?
-Also, you're putting BioWare's past fixes in our mouths. Not one person asked for Geth tweaks, removal of boss headshots, the Falcon, or the QFI. Not one.


Rarity can be a relative metric, and in that sense, you get more Ultra-Rares that are special/unique than you do Commons.  Does not mean that there can't be some duds/weakers in each rarity level though...  that's the problem when you think of everything in absolute terms...  again, 3 buckets, as long as nothing is terrible or ungodly, then you do have balance.  If there's not enough options in one bucket, we could shift things around.

As far as standard builds go - no two people play the same way.  You can take a widely accepted build but it will still not work for some.  Someone can make a less viable build work better, and get great satisfaction in the process of doing that.  It just shows one dimensional thinking that goes on here that people cannot comprehend that they don't have to play the same build as everyone else all the time.  For those that do, there are rewards that come for having this choice be a relevant factor.

Bioware's past fixes are pretty much in line with stuff people whine about constantly.  Sure they fix it in all the wrong ways, like the matchmaker...  but the causes of their misguided attempts are attrituble to stuff people complain about.  Like FBWGG farmers.  Like gold players complaining of noobs in their lobbies blowing games.  And so on.  The medicine/fix is often not something anyone ones.  Be wise - stop complaining about everything.  Unless something is really really broken (like that horrible new matchmaking system).

#71
AdrianC25

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I think Infiltrators are fine as is, but IF they where going to get tuned im thinking simple fix such as TC not resetting power ability timers might be something to look at, infiltrators should be impacted by weapon weight as well. TC damage isnt the issue it would be that SI can energy drain and fire every cloak or GI can Proxy mine and fire every TC cycle because TC resets everything else timer so weight means nothing so they can use powerful damaging /debuffing abilities at will. no other class can do that...

#72
Rinzler

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Rifneno wrote...

Rinzler wrote...

Only new gun i hate is the Reeger Carbine and that's mainly because of the way it's being used. I've had games where the person with the reeger was just following my sentinel around shooting past me to hammer my targets and leave me with hardly any kills while I take the damage. 4 games this happened yesterday. I wouldnt mind if it was some tactic we came up with but it wasnt, i was just trying to enjoy my M11 Wraith and some puke is shooting thru me taking kills. ****ing Sucks when your screen is just a blue cloud all the time coz someones shooting thru you and you cant see a thing.
The Reeger is ME3's versions of Gears of War's SoS
On Topic of the thread tho the Krys is a good weapon, someone using that has saved my dumb arse more than once when I got in over my head trying to decapitate using my Vorcha. I like team play not zerging. Krys can be great for that. Pretty sure the Reeger can but the ease of it's use seems to attract the ****s


Score doesn't matter and it's good for the team.  That's frickin' brilliant strategy actually (IMO).  Unless of course you were playing a vorcha and needed the kills for bloodlust, or krogan needing them for blood rage.


You dont think its bull**** to do it without giving the player a heads-up or get on chat and say what you're up to, or at least shoot round me not thru me?

#73
MaxShine

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Just leave it as it is, people are happy... Don't like, don't use it... that is so simple

#74
molecularman

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greghorvath wrote...

molecularman wrote...
Dear ABjerre,

I find it impossible to take your post seriously. Your main point is that not all players are active forum users and therefore their opinions must be the same as yours. It also seems that you don't care about balance even the slightest. But this is not a viable reason to ignore balance on one weapon as it is a widely accepted fact that balance matters in all video games.

Best regards,
molecularman

Balance is a myth.

I use the krysae only occasionally because it is so sickeningly OP that it takes the fun away for me. I don't mind if other people like it, I have evolved far enough to be able to switch to another weapon and if someone outscores me with it, I honestly could not care less. The gun is a beast, not classifiable into any category, but it certainly is no sniper rifle. Something you don't have to aim with cant possibly be a sniper rifle.

Tactical cloack nerfers want to be able to outscore infiltrators, as nobody says I want TC nerfed so I would have more fun with it. Real well done.

So you think players with equal skill shouldn't be able to outscore infiltrators with other classes? Really?

#75
FreaperFTW

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5k credits says that it won't be usable after the nerf?