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Minority complaining about the Krysae - an open letter to BioWare voicing my concerns


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#76
AdrianC25

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greghorvath wrote...

molecularman wrote...
Dear ABjerre,

I find it impossible to take your post seriously. Your main point is that not all players are active forum users and therefore their opinions must be the same as yours. It also seems that you don't care about balance even the slightest. But this is not a viable reason to ignore balance on one weapon as it is a widely accepted fact that balance matters in all video games.

Best regards,
molecularman

Balance is a myth.

I use the krysae only occasionally because it is so sickeningly OP that it takes the fun away for me. I don't mind if other people like it, I have evolved far enough to be able to switch to another weapon and if someone outscores me with it, I honestly could not care less. The gun is a beast, not classifiable into any category, but it certainly is no sniper rifle. Something you don't have to aim with cant possibly be a sniper rifle.

Tactical cloack nerfers want to be able to outscore infiltrators, as nobody says I want TC nerfed so I would have more fun with it. Real well done.


This is pretty much perfectly my opinion. 

#77
dimeonwu

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+1

#78
ABjerre

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molecularman wrote...

greghorvath wrote...
Tactical cloack nerfers want to be able to outscore infiltrators, as nobody says I want TC nerfed so I would have more fun with it. Real well done.

So you think players with equal skill shouldn't be able to outscore infiltrators with other classes? Really?


He does have a point. In none of the post regarding TC nerfs have someone mentioned that it would bring a more challenging or fun gameplay in to the picture. All arguementation is about people thinking it gives infiltrators an unfair advantage over them.

It is very much the same with krysae critics, sabotage opposers, you name it.

#79
GodlessPaladin

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ABjerre wrote...

molecularman wrote...

greghorvath wrote...
Tactical cloack nerfers want to be able to outscore infiltrators, as nobody says I want TC nerfed so I would have more fun with it. Real well done.

So you think players with equal skill shouldn't be able to outscore infiltrators with other classes? Really?


He does have a point. In none of the post regarding TC nerfs have someone mentioned that it would bring a more challenging or fun gameplay in to the picture. All arguementation is about people thinking it gives infiltrators an unfair advantage over them.

It is very much the same with krysae critics, sabotage opposers, you name it.


Nobody huh.

It's not like there haven't been a hundred posts like this or anything: 

I think balance is a good thing because it creates meaningful choices, adds layers of depth, creates a dynamic of risk vs reward, enhances gameplay flow, facilitates a wider variety of playstyles, rewards experimentation, extends replay value, provides a rewarding sense of mastery (something you yourself claimed to want), and more.  All of these things are important to engaging players and making the experience as fun as possible.

Would it kill you to stop making dishonest arguments attacking the character of a nebulous "them"?  If absolutely nothing else, you should realize that no amount of questioning the motives of people for presenting an argument actually constitutes a refutation of that argument.

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 07 juin 2012 - 02:02 .


#80
greghorvath

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molecularman wrote...
*snip*
So you think players with equal skill shouldn't be able to outscore infiltrators with other classes? Really?

Really. Why would anyone want to do that?

Equal skill cannot be measured if they are not playing the same class anyway, and since this is COOPERATIVE multiplayer, it does not make a rat's ass of actual difference who is on top of that score board (and if ever you met a score hoarder, than its me). People with ego problems should play competitive multiplayers. We would all of us be better off. 

Video game balance is a very stupid idea if you really think about it. If you really want to achieve it, the only choice is to give everything the same stats and characteristics. People should just stfu and learn to switch weapons, leave lobbies and to live and let live.

Modifié par greghorvath, 07 juin 2012 - 01:57 .


#81
DYarritu

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So what is the big deal? You have a weapon that does a lot of damage, so people complain about it and start with the nerf! nerf! nerf!

Then you have other weapons that are not so good, and people start complaining about that too, they need a buff...

Couldn't you just play the game it is? All those that keep complaining about overpowered or underpowered weapons?

If all the characters and weapons were exactly the same in terms of what they can accomplish no matter how good or bad player you might be, what would be the point?

There are some that use a sniper rifle on a Si or GI and can't kill husk, I've seen some soldier with shotguns like the Graal Spike Thrower that are ridiculously good killing enemies left and right in the blink of an eye, or those who make everything explode before you can shoot it. Then you have those who use a character with biotic abilities and then are useless, they just keep dying, like those AA carrying a Saber and a Claymore at the same time...

It is real easy to fix all these without nerfing or buffing anything, not the weapons, not the characters: play the game in whatever way you want!

You don't like SI with Krysae's? Host your own private game, invite friends and ask them not to use that combination because you think it might be OP.

Don't like playing with those who make everything explode before you can shoot anything? Well do the same or leave the lobby if you see what character the others have, look for another game...

Don't like the Krysae: don't use it!
You love the Eagle: go for it!

But leave the rest of us alone, stop complaining, and just do what the game is intended for: PLAY!

Finally if you can't handle all the different weapons or characters, maybe you should try playing something else.

#82
JShepppp

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This reminds me of the outcry over the ending. Should Bioware not listen to the "vocal majority" of the "overall minority" (forum posters)? This doesn't mean only a few people overall hate the ending, nor does it mean that most people overall hate the ending. The forums are a sample, and that's that. Bioware has nothing else to go on.

If people feel that strongly about the latest sniper they should voice more about it then. Perhaps create a poll or something.

#83
AdrianC25

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molecularman wrote...

greghorvath wrote...

molecularman wrote...
Dear ABjerre,

I find it impossible to take your post seriously. Your main point is that not all players are active forum users and therefore their opinions must be the same as yours. It also seems that you don't care about balance even the slightest. But this is not a viable reason to ignore balance on one weapon as it is a widely accepted fact that balance matters in all video games.

Best regards,
molecularman

Balance is a myth.

I use the krysae only occasionally because it is so sickeningly OP that it takes the fun away for me. I don't mind if other people like it, I have evolved far enough to be able to switch to another weapon and if someone outscores me with it, I honestly could not care less. The gun is a beast, not classifiable into any category, but it certainly is no sniper rifle. Something you don't have to aim with cant possibly be a sniper rifle.

Tactical cloack nerfers want to be able to outscore infiltrators, as nobody says I want TC nerfed so I would have more fun with it. Real well done.

So you think players with equal skill shouldn't be able to outscore infiltrators with other classes? Really?


Score means nothing ... BUT since your going there .. im willing to bet I could give any infiltrator a run for his money with my HSoldier, HSent, AA or GE. Well minus with the krysae.

I am NOT bragging but ive never has my ass kicked on the score board because someone was using a Infiltrator. besides who cares about the score board? i only care if IM doing bad or there is some dude50k lower then everyone else and Id only care if he was drain and did nothing to contribute other then alow people to get a gold badge for rezzing people.

I tell you what though, sure dont hate me a good team player Infiltrator, rezzes when they should instead of score**** and actually try to do objectives. Im the last guy complaining when that "damn infiltrator" with less then 2k score difference runs over and gets someone up and i dont have to either break threw the line and likely die or feel bad for apearing to not try to rez someone.

#84
GodlessPaladin

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DYarritu wrote...
If all the characters and weapons were exactly the same in terms of what they can accomplish no matter how good or bad player you might be, what would be the point?

  How can you possibly think that that's what balance means?  :huh:

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 07 juin 2012 - 01:58 .


#85
greghorvath

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AdrianC25 wrote...
*snip*

I was about to say I like you, man and you should add me on origin, but then I checked your manifest and saw your list of ultra rares. I think I hate you with a passion... :o

#86
count_4

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ABjerre wrote...

molecularman wrote...

greghorvath wrote...
Tactical cloack nerfers want to be able to outscore infiltrators, as nobody says I want TC nerfed so I would have more fun with it. Real well done.

So you think players with equal skill shouldn't be able to outscore infiltrators with other classes? Really?


He does have a point. In none of the post regarding TC nerfs have someone mentioned that it would bring a more challenging or fun gameplay in to the picture. All arguementation is about people thinking it gives infiltrators an unfair advantage over them.

It is very much the same with krysae critics, sabotage opposers, you name it.

Actually having more fun is exactly why people want things nerfed a lot of times. It's not about being unfair or any kind of advantage, it is about playing with a player rolling one of the (from the nerf-requesters POV) OP classes not being a lot of fun. Not because they get outscored but because the gameplay tends to get boring. And they do have a point here.

Sadly all most anti-nerfers do is claiming the nerfers are simply jealous and not 'wasting' any kind of thought to why these players might actually request a nerf. They want a class/power/weapon to be weaker, therefore they are bad players who want to take away others toys. That's about the only argument I usually see from the anti-faction.

Modifié par count_4, 07 juin 2012 - 02:01 .


#87
ABjerre

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GodlessPaladin wrote...

DYarritu wrote...
If all the characters and weapons were exactly the same in terms of what they can accomplish no matter how good or bad player you might be, what would be the point?

  How can you possibly think that that's what balance means?  :huh:


... you forgot the rest of the post, where you upon correcting someone, shows them your, and the correct, definition of the term. Nothing personal - many posters do it, and it has led me to belive that people who does this, are either trolls, or too insecure to actually say things straight out (in this case the meaning of balance in a cooperative multiplayer game).

#88
Zhuinden

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Kick In The Door wrote...

I couldn't care less about the Krysae. But the drama if they do nerf it will be absolutely exquisite, I look forward to next week's episode.


I'm still terrible with the Krysae and I have no idea how people can top anything with it.
Seriously, the damage against armor is an outrage.
The reason why it has as much damage ON PAPER as the Black Widow is because it's SPLASH meaning the enemy does NOT receive the full damage of it.

#89
CmnDwnWrkn

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I see the argument that it's a team game, so people shouldn't complain about an OP weapon because it will give the team a better chance of winning. The problem is, a weapon like the Krysae specifically ERODES team play. It does not improve it. If as a team we're running around in a pack, what exactly is the role of non-Krysae players? It's basically to escort the Krysae user around while he/she wipes the map. It renders other classes/powers impotent. A big part of the fun of this game is in killing enemies. It is not fun simply to wander around while your teammate does all the killing. The best you can do when playing with a Krysae user is run off on your own to score a few kills before the Krysae player can catch up. And thus, the team aspect of the game has been compromised.

#90
GodlessPaladin

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ABjerre wrote...

GodlessPaladin wrote...

DYarritu wrote...
If all the characters and weapons were exactly the same in terms of what they can accomplish no matter how good or bad player you might be, what would be the point?

  How can you possibly think that that's what balance means?  :huh:


... you forgot the rest of the post, where you upon correcting someone, shows them your, and the correct, definition of the term.


No, I didn't "forget" anything.  I just don't actually have time to repeat myself 20 times for you when you clearly don't read people's posts, as evidenced by my immediately preceding response to your claim about what "everybody" says.

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 07 juin 2012 - 02:13 .


#91
Apl_Juice

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neteng101 wrote...
We might have to agree to disagree, but I'll attempt to explain one more time.

Choice and preparation is important...  to allow for this, you need 3 buckets...  not so good, decent, and good.  If you put everything into the same bucket and make all powers/weapons equally effective, then preparation doesn't matter anymore.  I don't think I've ever said of a "best weapon in each category" but having great weapons in each category is a good thing.  If we followed your suggestion, the greats will be reduced to mediocrity.

Choice and preparation is important as I've said...  again, part of choice involves having the ability to play the game in different ways.  Playing a less viable build/weapon/power at a higher difficulty level is a greater challenge, it leads to variety.  When you make these equal to all the rest, then it doesn't matter anymore, you're removing variety/choice...  it leads to sameness at that point, ie. the game will just become boring.


I'm beginning to understand, but I still feel that your point is wrong. First, how does equality in effectiveness turn into flat equality? Think of the Valiant vs the Indra. Their DPS levels are almost identical, yet they are two inherently different weapons. The Indra rewards the player who can maintain aim on the opponent's head for a sustained period. Its difficulty in that regard is balanced by the fact that its rate of fire triggers ammo powers frequently. Now think of the Valiant. Its rate of fire means its less of a disaster to miss a crucial headshot, at the cost of lower damage than your traditional snipers. These weapons have different strengths for different playstyles. Their checks on eachother just balance out. The only variable is the man behind the scope: can he handle sustained aim, or does he go for the quick strikes of the Valiant?

The weapon's stats aren't the only thing we judge in its effectivness. These weapons are designed to play towards different strengths which is something you're leaving out. Why shouldnt the player who can handle the Incisor's kick be rewarded for that work? Why should he have to snipe in the exact same way everyone else does? I think if we balance weapons like this, then people will have to look beyond a stats sheet when they choose their loadout, . That's something that can't be read on a guide or a forum

Rarity can be a relative metric, and in that sense, you get more Ultra-Rares that are special/unique than you do Commons.  Does not mean that there can't be some duds/weakers in each rarity level though...  that's the problem when you think of everything in absolute terms...  again, 3 buckets, as long as nothing is terrible or ungodly, then you do have balance.  If there's not enough options in one bucket, we could shift things around.


I'm not saying there can't either. The Widow is, for all intents and purposes, a straight upgrade to the Mantis. It invalidates it. But I don't feel that the Mantis needs a buff: its a Common starter weapon. And there are terrible weapons. Maybe I'm a bit skewed here, but a terrible weapon to me is one that doesn't reward you properly for the work you put into it. I can keep an Eagle on a targets face all day, but in the end I'll be rewarded more for keeping a Tempest on that enemy's face.

As far as standard builds go - no two people play the same way.  You can take a widely accepted build but it will still not work for some.  Someone can make a less viable build work better, and get great satisfaction in the process of doing that.  It just shows one dimensional thinking that goes on here that people cannot comprehend that they don't have to play the same build as everyone else all the time.  For those that do, there are rewards that come for having this choice be a relevant factor.


But that's what you're asking for. Making the lines of weapon effectiveness more clear only add to that mindset. When the Indra first dropped, I remember seeing thread after thread of "Lol the Indra isn't worth the Ultra-Rare stamp". The Indra's DPS rival the BW's and the Valiant's. Now if all three have the same DPS, how do you pick? Yes, you pick to which ever one plays to YOUR strengths best. That's a meaningful choice. How is that one-dimensional?

Bioware's past fixes are pretty much in line with stuff people whine about constantly.  Sure they fix it in all the wrong ways, like the matchmaker...  but the causes of their misguided attempts are attrituble to stuff people complain about.  Like FBWGG farmers.  Like gold players complaining of noobs in their lobbies blowing games.  And so on.  The medicine/fix is often not something anyone ones.  Be wise - stop complaining about everything.  Unless something is really really broken (like that horrible new matchmaking system).


Or how about you demand less band-aids and more actual fixes? Nothing is ever going to get done about it if you sit there and take everything BioWare does.

#92
greghorvath

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GodlessPaladin wrote...
How can you possibly think that that's what balance means?  :huh:

Because that is what most people mean by it. Instead of tweaking, buffing, and nerfing the developers should focus on new content and people should learn to adapt to a given setting instead of trying to change things of truly marginal importance. 

We have a great framework for this game with several tiers of additional content. A gun that may be changed for another in a second, a class that can be built in several ways, a map that I can leave whenever I want and an enemy or team member I dislike that can be avoided if so desired are things of terciary or even lower importance. The store system affects fundamental gameplay and experience, while the buffedness or nerfednessof stuff in reality does nothing.

Modifié par greghorvath, 07 juin 2012 - 02:12 .


#93
ABjerre

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count_4 wrote...
Actually having more fun is exactly why people want things nerfed a lot of times. It's not about being unfair or any kind of advantage, it is about playing with a player rolling one of the (from the nerf-requesters POV) OP classes not being a lot of fun. Not because they get outscored but because the gameplay tends to get boring. And they do have a point here.

Sadly all most anti-nerfers do is claiming the nerfers are simply jealous and not 'wasting' any kind of thought to why these players might actually request a nerf. They want a class/power/weapon to be weaker, therefore they are bad players who want to take away others toys. That's about the only argument I usually see from the anti-faction.


This is a complete sidetrack, but i'll follow:
You may be correct in the point that "nerfers" want the game to be more fun - i'm pretty sure that it is what everyone wants. However... Many argumentations presented by "nerfers" assume the perspective of them being "beaten" by someone else, and thus their case instead of "i want to have more fun with X, please nerf X" becomes "i want to have more fun with X, please nerf Y". Do you see the difference?

Yes, X becomes more fun, but i'm not sure that everyone - especially not the Y's thinks it was a very good idea.

From being a constructive discussion amongst the players of a class or users of an item, it becomes a hail of critic by the ones not playing the class and not using the item, because the weaker X is, the more fun Y is.

#94
Trakarg

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The tears will be delicious when this gun gets nerfed.

How about you use something that requires you to aim, people? The black widow is far more interesting than the krysae.

#95
Guest_XxTaLoNxX_*

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Consider the following.

It takes one shot to kill a Troop on Gold as an Infiltrator.
It takes two shots to kill a Troop on Gold as an AR Hsol.
It takes three shots for everyone else.

For a sniper rifle... is that truly OP? Is it the gun itself that is OP or is there another force at work in the game (Tactical Cloak) that is pushing the rifle into the realm of "too powerful"?

Trakarg wrote...

The tears will be delicious when this gun gets nerfed.

How about you use something that requires you to aim, people? The black widow is far more interesting than the krysae.


That's you personal opinion. And to be honest you are a minority among the minority. More people here actually like the Krysae and don't want it nerfed at all.

The extremely vocal, extreme minority here is what is going to get this rifle ruined for everyone else. Because they can't cope. They probably don't play well with others either.

Modifié par XxTaLoNxX, 07 juin 2012 - 02:18 .


#96
GodlessPaladin

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greghorvath wrote...

GodlessPaladin wrote...
How can you possibly think that that's what balance means?  :huh:

Because that is what most people mean by it

  I don't think anyone here who has been arguing for balance would agree with that definition.  Who are these "most people" that think balance means that all choices will have the same effectiveness *regardless of player skill*?  Because I've been around for a good damn long time in many gaming and game design forums and I've never seen even one of these "most people."

You know what I think?  I think you can't argue against real people.  I think you make up absurd positions and attribute them to a nebulous "them" or "some people" or "most people" when you can't actually attribute them to anyone and then argue against those positions that you yourself made up.

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 07 juin 2012 - 02:18 .


#97
greghorvath

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XxTaLoNxX wrote...

Consider the following.

It takes one shot to kill a Troop on Gold as an Infiltrator.
It takes two shots to kill a Troop on Gold as an AR Hsol.
It takes three shots for everyone else.

For a sniper rifle... is that truly OP? Is it the gun itself that is OP or is there another force at work in the game (Tactical Cloak) that is pushing the rifle into the realm of "too powerful"?

Consider also that your first point applies to almost every hard hitting weapon... Yes, lets nerf TC! Yay. I think we should just get rid of infiltrator class while we are at it...

#98
Chealec

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greghorvath wrote...

GodlessPaladin wrote...
How can you possibly think that that's what balance means?  :huh:

Because that is what most people mean by it. Instead of tweaking, buffing, and nerfing the developers should focus on new content and people should learn to adapt to a given setting instead of trying to change things of truly marginal importance. 

We have a great framework for this game with several tiers of additional content. A gun that may be changed for another in a second, a class that can be built in several ways, a map that I can leave whenever I want and an enemy or team member I dislike that can be avoided if so desired are things of terciary or even lower importance. The store system affect fundamental gameplay and experience, while the buffedness or nerfedness in reality does nothing.


I would go for the diametrically opposing viewpoint here - rather than giving us new fluff that often doesn't work right I'd rather they got the stuff that's actually in the game already working properly FIRST.

ULM, Vanguard charges, decloaking for no reason, dud bullets, wonky weapons - all of these are more important, to me, than getting a new map or Prothean character in the near future - hell, I'm not even that bothered by the store.

#99
greghorvath

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GodlessPaladin wrote...
 I don't think anyone here who has been arguing for balance would agree with that definition.  Yet again, this strikes me as yet another disingenuous argument where you attack the absurd position of a nebulous "them" that doesn't seem to actually exist.

If you read my posts carefully (perhaps out loud would help) you would see I am not attacking anything. I am trying to indtroduce some sense to the BSN (pathetic, I know), which in this case does not fall in line with your own opinion.

I like the word nebulous though. I seriously wish I knew what it meant...

#100
greghorvath

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I checked nebulous. Nice word.