355 réponses à ce sujet

[Ross42899]

I don't hate the game. Beside the ending, I think ME3 was avery good game with some minor problems. ( journal system not as good as it could be, too much auto-dialogue, no vehicle missions, lack of interaction with  certain characters). Other than that I really liked the game.

[abaris]

naughty99 wrote...

It's not only having Miranda and Jack turn on you, but there is important content, the Morinth companion character, that you can only unlock if you are mindlessly clicking "nice guy" or mindlessly clicking "rude" all the way through the game up to that point.

Yeah, but that's about roleplaying. You don't have all the options if you're a certain kind of character. That's what you don't know in your first playthrough and that's what makes up replayability: something new to discover. And that's what's lacking with ME3.

[naughty99]

abaris wrote...

naughty99 wrote...

It's not only having Miranda and Jack turn on you, but there is important content, the Morinth companion character, that you can only unlock if you are mindlessly clicking "nice guy" or mindlessly clicking "rude" all the way through the game up to that point.

Yeah, but that's about roleplaying. You don't have all the options if you're a certain kind of character. That's what you don't know in your first playthrough and that's what makes up replayability: something new to discover. And that's what's lacking with ME3.

Exactly, this what I'm saying, that you were penalized for roleplaying in ME2.

In ME3, you are free to select any dialogue options you think your character would choose, without being penalized for not being a smartass or pushover 100% of the time.

Surely, you would agree that mindlessly clicking "paragon" or "renegade" every single time is not really role playing, right?. I mean there's not any decision making process there about what the character is feeling in response to what was said before, etc.

Modifié par naughty99, 08 juin 2012 - 11:46 .

[Icemix]

abaris wrote...

naughty99 wrote...

It's not only having Miranda and Jack turn on you, but there is important content, the Morinth companion character, that you can only unlock if you are mindlessly clicking "nice guy" or mindlessly clicking "rude" all the way through the game up to that point.

Yeah, but that's about roleplaying. You don't have all the options if you're a certain kind of character. That's what you don't know in your first playthrough and that's what makes up replayability: something new to discover. And that's what's lacking with ME3.

Complete and utter BS. Every ME 3 playthrough can be vastly different, unlike the other 2 games. The problem is that it ends the same way, no matter what.

[Dezerte]

I hate the ending, not the game. But the ending is so horrible that it makes everything else in the game overshadowed by it. It also affects BioWare's repuation and how I feel about them.

EC has been advertised to only offer clarification & closure. That's great, but the real problem with the ending is not the lack of closure it's the nonsensical, lorebraking, spacemagic, illogical mess that happens at the last 15-30 minutes.

There's no clarification that can fix something that is illogical, the only thing that can fix it is changing the ending but that is something they won't do.

But I'm still waiting for the EC. The EC is the only & final "fix" BioWare will give so I'll wait until then before I decide to downgrade them in my list of devs.

I've always loved BioWare's games, no other company has been able to make something as immersive & epic as them. Sure there were some small faults in some of them, but it was never anything major. The ME3 ending debacle and how it's been handled has made me lose faith in BioWare, I feel betrayed & sad.

Modifié par Dezman8, 08 juin 2012 - 11:43 .

[abaris]

naughty99 wrote...

Exactly, that's what I'm saying, you were penalized for roleplaying in ME2.

In ME3, you are free to select any dialogue options you think your character would choose, without being penalized for not being a smartass or pushover 100% of the time. 

Nope, it was more realistic. In ME3 there's hardly any choice apart from Tuchanka and Tali. Everything you do turns out the exact same way with the few options you're given.

There's nothing new to discover, hence lacks replayability.

Icemix wrote...

Complete and utter BS. Every ME
3 playthrough can be vastly different, unlike the other 2 games. The
problem is that it ends the same way, no matter what.

Curious, apart from fighting with different classes and two major missions, what can be vastly different in terms of roleplaying?

Modifié par abaris, 08 juin 2012 - 11:45 .

[wright1978]

naughty99 wrote...

If you guys managed to always choose dialogue that suited your character in ME2, either your character was a delusional smartass sociopath, or a sniveling pushover, or you can never get enough points to unlock some important dialogue options later in the game.

The whole concept of making bonuses unlocked by constantly picking "rude" or "nice" dialogue choices is anathema to the essence of role playing. It's like converting any possiblity of engaging or identifying with your character into a mindless mini-game progression mechanic.

Getting rid of that was a huge improvement IMO, and made ME3 actually feel like a role-playing game, in stark contrast to how dialogue worked in the previous games in the series.

No never play complete paragon or complete renegade. Some blend of the 2 (paragade or renegon) of varying construction. The odd time i've been locked out of one potential solution to a situtation like the Miranda/Jack fight. Other dialogue choices are available though.

Agree para/rene unlock wasn't ideal and reputation system has potential. However there is no role playing in ME3 in my opinion because the the dialogue wheel has been butchered so there's far less choices and worse still the dialogue wheel itself is absent from huge swathes of the game where Bioware have added their own defined version of Shep via Auto-dialogue. Now if your Shep matches that characterisation no doubt the jarring effect is less. That Shep is set in stone though and there is no ability to roleplay it differently. ME3 is like removing the latch lock from a gate(reputation system) and then walling up the gap with solid bricks so no one can go through the gate at all.

[AlanC9]

Icemix wrote...

Complete and utter BS. Every ME 3 playthrough can be vastly different, unlike the other 2 games. The problem is that it ends the same way, no matter what.

And other Bio games don't? Bio games typically have two distinct endings if they don't have only one ending.

Modifié par AlanC9, 08 juin 2012 - 11:48 .

[jaza]

Everyone who claims the game is great:

Sex robot EDI.

Explain this ****.

No, really.

EXPLAIN THIS ****!

And if I seem mad, you should see Seboist talking about this. Not that he isn't right though...

[Icemix]

abaris wrote...

naughty99 wrote...

Exactly, that's what I'm saying, you were penalized for roleplaying in ME2.

In ME3, you are free to select any dialogue options you think your character would choose, without being penalized for not being a smartass or pushover 100% of the time. 

Nope, it was more realistic. In ME3 there's hardly any choice apart from Tuchanka and Tali. Everything you do turns out the exact same way with the few options you're given.

There's nothing new to discover, hence lacks replayability.

Icemix wrote...

Complete and utter BS. Every ME
3 playthrough can be vastly different, unlike the other 2 games. The
problem is that it ends the same way, no matter what.

Curious, apart from fighting with different classes and two major missions, what can be vastly different in terms of roleplaying?

Everything. You can play as a genocidal maniac, a peacekeeper and everything in between. After all, this is a story told by Bioware, we only have the power to personalise it, and that is more than enought.

[Il Divo]

AlanC9 wrote...

Icemix wrote...

Complete and utter BS. Every ME 3 playthrough can be vastly different, unlike the other 2 games. The problem is that it ends the same way, no matter what.

And other Bio games don't? Bio games typically have two distinct endings if they don't have only one ending.

This goes back to that whole bit about ME3 being on a completely different scale than any other project. The devs built alot of expectations, and especially with regard to what the endings would be. The problem is they seem to have failed on every single expectation. Decisions like "We don't need to know about the Reapers" seem entirely foreign to Bioware, since they're so exposition heavy (Ex: Vigil talking your ear off on Ilos).

On its own, the ending can't stand up to any dedicated argument. When placed in the context of pre-release hype, it's failures are amplified even more.

[BluRay]

i think only because of the endig,and because they are gelous

[naughty99]

wright1978 wrote...

naughty99 wrote...

If you guys managed to always choose dialogue that suited your character in ME2, either your character was a delusional smartass sociopath, or a sniveling pushover, or you can never get enough points to unlock some important dialogue options later in the game.

The whole concept of making bonuses unlocked by constantly picking "rude" or "nice" dialogue choices is anathema to the essence of role playing. It's like converting any possiblity of engaging or identifying with your character into a mindless mini-game progression mechanic.

Getting rid of that was a huge improvement IMO, and made ME3 actually feel like a role-playing game, in stark contrast to how dialogue worked in the previous games in the series.

No never play complete paragon or complete renegade. Some blend of the 2 (paragade or renegon) of varying construction. The odd time i've been locked out of one potential solution to a situtation like the Miranda/Jack fight. Other dialogue choices are available though.

Agree para/rene unlock wasn't ideal and reputation system has potential. However there is no role playing in ME3 in my opinion because the the dialogue wheel has been butchered so there's far less choices and worse still the dialogue wheel itself is absent from huge swathes of the game where Bioware have added their own defined version of Shep via Auto-dialogue. Now if your Shep matches that characterisation no doubt the jarring effect is less. That Shep is set in stone though and there is no ability to roleplay it differently. ME3 is like removing the latch lock from a gate(reputation system) and then walling up the gap with solid bricks so no one can go through the gate at all.

I understand what you mean, certainly during a cut scene it's like your Shepard is set in stone and you lose all control over whatever he/she is saying and doing. And I do recall at least the very first intro cut scene was very, very long. I don't recall many others, partly because that liberating feeling of finally having a connection with the character I was playing was so overwhelming. Are there some specific spots in ME3 where you felt the cut scene was too long and should have been broken up with more dialogue interaction?

Try to imagine it from my perspective. I had almost zero connection with Shepard in ME2. I started out roleplaying, picking whatever dialogue options I wanted, but then I got to some point in the game where these options were greyed out. I was so angry, thinking, "But that's exactly what my character would say in this situation, why I can't choose that?"

So I researched and found out that I had to pick one side or the other, to level up my paragon or renegade points. So I started over and played the game picking renegade every single time. Even so, when a dialogue option would come up, I would be thinking, "God, the character I wanted to play would never say this, but I have to choose it." And there are quite a few rene/para options that really don't make any sense. But finally, yes I was able to get Morinth to join my party, etc., but it never felt like a role playing game. More like a third person shooter with some cut scenes.

Then I played ME3, and I was finally free to pick whatever I thought my Shepard character would say, in fact, for the first time I often had to think about it and ask myself, "What WOULD my character want to say or do here?" It was mind blowing and liberating. Even the cut scenes unrelated to dialogue had so much more impact, because I actually had some kind of connection to the character. For this reason, I enjoyed ME3 much, much more than ME2.

Maybe you guys had the right idea, and I should go back and play ME2 and just pick any options, forgetting about unlocks. But I suspect at the back of my mind I'll be thinking about that progression mechanic - "I should pick option X, because I'm losing points if I try to role play, etc."

Modifié par naughty99, 08 juin 2012 - 12:40 .

[Il Divo]

naughty99 wrote...

Exactly, this what I'm saying, that you were penalized for roleplaying in ME2.

In ME3, you are free to select any dialogue options you think your character would choose, without being penalized for not being a smartass or pushover 100% of the time.

Surely, you would agree that mindlessly clicking "paragon" or "renegade" every single time is not really role playing, right?. I mean there's not any decision making process there about what the character is feeling in response to what was said before, etc.

Sure, I would agree. But I wouldn't say ME2 committed some special flaw in this regard. The problem with any Bioware alignment system is that people tend to play alignments as opposed to actual characters.

Perfect example: KotOR. Binary good vs. evil system where player benefits from a strict alignment because Force costs are reduced.

Even a game like DA:O, which was loads better on this front, kinda failed since every conversation either tells the player that they succeeded in convincing a companion to like them more, or failed.

More natural role-playing could result if games stopped reminding us every five minutes that we made a bad-choice.

[zRz Tyr]

I loved the story until the ending, but would not let that spoil ME3 for me. Then i started playing multiplayer. I am so eager to unlock the weapons i want and characters i want as well, but all i get is items and characters that i have no interest in.

In short, i hate this game because of that damn store system. Thats the one thing that buggers me the most.

[wright1978]

naughty99 wrote...

I understand what you mean, certainly during a cut scene it's like your Shepard is set in stone and you lose all control over whatever he/she is saying and doing. And I do recall at least the very first intro cut scene was very, very long. I don't recall many others, partly because that liberating feeling of finally having a connection with the character I was playing was so overwhelming. Are there some specific spots in ME3 where you felt the cut scene was too long and should have been broken up with more dialogue interaction?

Try to imagine it from my perspective. I had almost zero connection with Shepard in ME2. I started out roleplaying, picking whatever dialogue options I wanted, but then I got to some point in the game where these options were greyed out. I was so angry, thinking, "But that's exactly what my character would say in this situation, why I can't choose that?"

I can understand the sense of frustration at loss of immersion even if i didn't experience it in ME2.

Since you mention it the intro reflects the problems of the wider game. Now my favourite Shep came through death in ME2 and became bitter at the Alliance and chose all those angry/bitter at alliance dialogue options. ME3 intro rolls up and there maybe 2/3 pop up dialogue wheel moments and they are simple 2 option choices. Worse still in between there's huge swathes of time when Shep is talking his ass off, crossing characterisation lines that are completely unacceptable in my opinion. I walked away from the intro with a horrid taste in my mouth, thinking who is this character? It certainly isn't my Shep.  Unfortunately it wasn't just the intro and for every time a dialogue prompt game up there with a far bigger amount of moments where Shep either auto replied or was characterised through auto-dialogue during long rolling cutscenes.

[paul165]

I don't hate the game I just find it so ok it's average until the ending which slips into bad for me.

What I hate and poisons my opinion of the game itself is all the drama around it (Jessica Chobot, unhonoured promises, compulsary MP, day one dlc, Origin) but most of all Bioware's condescending, sneering attitude towards the consumer base - I read a PR statement from Bioware post ending and my blood pressure goes up 10 points. Or hell look at what Mr. Priestly writes these days - your Mum jokes, insults to peoples' intelligence and slap downs of people politely trying to help.

Yes some people deserve that kind of response but that's why the forums have report and ban buttons insulting people who look for the Bioware threads for an interesting conversation doesn't help anyone.

Of course this isn't true for all Bioware posting John and Allen are both highly entertaining and manage to be polite even when banning people.

[Slayer299]

[quote]The Grey Nayr wrote...

1. All dialogues pretty much lead to the same responses anyway, and is really necessary to choose how Shepard asks a question that's going to be asked in either case? Unless you want a difference like "Excuse me sir, but would you be so kind as to lend me aid agains the reapers?" and "Hey pinhead, the Reapers are gonna come down on your ass if you don't fall in line and give me everything you have!" [/quote]

No, I don't like sitting through long dialogues of conversation *i'm* not participating in, but BW's Shepard *is*.


[quote]
2. How the journal works is a petty reason.
[/quote]

So my dislike of the journal is 'petty', how kind of you to tell me <_<. I'd guess then that you disliked the working journal in 1 & 2 then?

[quote]
3. You must completely miss the context of the plot. When a person is desperate, in ANY case, they'll grasp at anything that offers a semblence of hope. A superweapon that was actually hinted at in LotSB is as good as a chance as any. Plus if you remember, the galaxy gained all of its current science from studying the protheans, they learned about the Reapers from them as well. The fact that they had a countermeasure ready but just never got the chance to deploy it, according to their logs, makes it trustworthy to them. Like Liara told the skeptical councilor, the protheans wouldn't have poured their last resources into it unless they were positive it would work.  [/quote]

Everyone knew there would be a mcguffin, that was pretty invetible considering how they painted themselves into a corner. But they still could have done it better and less 'we'll just trust this because...'


[quote]
4. And 80% of Mass Effect 2 was nothing more than recruitment missions and solving other people's problems. It's not that much different. [/quote]

Yeah, never said otherwise about them. My problem was that there were only plot missions Tuchanka, Rannoch, Thessia. No side missions that actually had you doing anything but planet scanning, you know, the N7 missions from 2


[quote]
Shepard's death&Rebirth, Freedom's Progress, Horizon, Collector Ship, Derelict Reaper, Suicide Mission was literally ALL there was to the actual plot of the game. The rest was filler. ME3 focuses more on the central plot. [/quote]

Those were major plot points, but everything in between is what I'm speaking of, the LM/Recuritment/N7's. ME3 is linear as a ruler, with no deviations *every* time.

[quote]
5. There's nothing inherently wrong with Fetch quest. Easy money and easy war assets so you do better. A lot of the things are found during important missions and can be given at one of the many many trips you'll take to the citadel. And if you don't find it during the missions, you can buy them in the Spectre offices. It's not a hinderance at all. [/quote]

No, there isn't, but an endless amount of the *same* type of go here...scan that...return is ridiculous. As to the Spectre office bit that was ridiculous, 'let's give people the stuff because they might get bored/angry they missed it'.

[quote]
6. I guess you missed the fact that the entire galaxy is beseiged by the Reapers. It's hard to explore when you'll just get swarmed by enemies. You also forget that Shepard had complete and total free reign in ME2. In ME3, he's following orders on a mission where time cant be wasted that much. [/quote]

They were *all* war assets, hardly haring off into the distance exploring for *fun*.

[quote]
7. ME3's graphics are a lot more detailed than ME2's. Even the PS3 graphic update. ME2 had practially no shadowing on people and their skin looked pretty plain. in ME3, faces are accurate with the light sources and so detailed you can see the pores in BroShep's face. [/quote]

So all those errors were just my imagination or do you just like talking to people who look at you while their body is 180 degrees the other way? And the cutsce

[quote]
8. Are you ****ing kidding me? [/quote]

No, why should I be? 

[quote]
9. The fact that anybody can die in ME2 made that kinda necessary. Also what would you prefer? That everyone from ME2 right down to Rupert the custodian be crammed into the Normandy and you have like 18 crewmates to choose from for squads? We got the most important ones back and that's what matters.

Also would you really say that Miranda and Thane got shafted? They have great and important parts in ME3. [/quote]

Really? Wjhere did I do anything with Miranda at all? Oh yes, I didn't and she had all of 2 - 3 scenes with Shepard, although she did have the beacon on KL's ship. Jacob, I can't go into him, but that was a crap on him even if he wsn't a 'fan favorite'. And no-one expects any of the minor char's to make any return, its nice, but not necessary. But having nothing of substance with the ME2 crew is what I'm talking about. And to *you* those were the important ones.

[quote]
10. EMS is proof that desicisons do matter. Different choices result in different war assets which affect EMS. Certain choices, both good and bad, yield good and bad results. Example. Sparing the rachni queen seemed stupid, but you get a good asset from her, while killing her gives you a clone that will betray you and take a huge chunk out of your other assets if you think she's good to have. And saving the council seems like the nice and ethical choice, but your war assets are much higher if you let them die. [/quote]

And you had the *exact* same mission for her in 3, yeah, big difference getting that one. The EMS was not proof your decisions matter, how did they affect the actual Earth fight? Answer - we don't see any difference between other than not seeing the DA or not in the cutscene or with Hammer on Earth. And the CB choice, that was a joke.
What I expected ws that those war assets would make the space/ground battles harder or easier, not have it affect my R/G/B choice.
[/quote]

Three versions? No, that's stupid and not anything I said. They needed to take their time with ME3, not rush it out the door when it is clearly not ready.

[quote]
11. Subjective. And I cant wait to see Extended Cut make all you ending haters eat your words. I've been saying for a long time that you guys ignore the context behind the ending and obsess over similar cinematics like ignorant children. [/quote]

So now were resorting to insults? Maturity and discussion have cleary passed you over.

[quote]
12. Oh good lord. It would have been difficult to add a face into the engine for the Quarians, which arguably would be the same likeness as that photograph. [/quote]

Already answered...see below.


[quote]
Or would you rather Tali be Jar Jar Bink's under the helmet? Cause given the shape of it, that was entirely possible. It's irritating to see people rant incessantly because Tali isn't some xenophile's dream like the Asari are. [/quote]

BS, it was a cheap copout they didn't know what the Quarians looked like or couldn't have their artists start working on ideas over the last 5 years. In that instance BW would have been justified to claim 'artistic integrity', photoshopping was a cheap out.

[quote]
13. Now you're lying. Their exact statement was that you don't need to play multiplayer to get the best ending, but it would be hard to do without it. That hasn't been proven untrue. Single player DLCs will add more war assets, and those aren't connected to MP. Bioware never said you'd be able to get the best without DLC so don't make false accusations until everything in ME3 development is 100% done and concluded. [/quote]

Wow, lying am I? So, tell me how you get over 5000 EMS w/o MP since it halves your EMS score if you don't play it and there are't 10K in assets.  And how is ME3 development *not* done? The game was released in March.

[quote]
Also what exactly is the best ending is speculative until the developers clarify. The breath scene with Shepard at 4000-5000 ems doesn't make the Destroy the best ending. It just makes it the best possible outcome for THAT scenario. Plus that could have been his last breath for all you know.

The fact that there is a gague in addition to the EMS nymber, which actually fills up at 2500, when a third option becomes available, implies that they meant for that to be the best ending, even if you don't see it that way.

Think about it this way, Bioware's never played favorites between Paragon and Renegade, so why change that last minute and make Renegade/Destroy the best way to go? Especially when they throw in a third option that they go out of their way to sell as a completely good choice?
[/quote]

I never said anything about what the "best" ending was...at all, so what are you talking about?  I said that the ending was one of the fails for ME3, obviously this was my opinion.  

Overall you seem to have deep issues with me giving my opinion on *why* I disliked ME3. I didn't ask you anything or comment about anyone else who liked the game. On the whole, I suggest you step back, take a deep breath and lower your blood pressure as you are cleary worked up about this.
 
edit - annoying formatting

Modifié par Slayer299, 08 juin 2012 - 12:51 .

[DaBigDragon]

KillaCam7i3 wrote...

Sure, the ending was bad, but it was a blast all the way up to that point. You people need to get over it. Extended Cut is on the way to fix that. I'm reading stuff here about how the entire series is now completely trash, and people will never even consider buying another ME game ever again. It sounds like the CoD people on Gamefaqs. Every year they say it's garbage, but they go and buy it anyway.

Finally someone with common sense.

[Icinix]

People who can't get over other people not being able to get over things need to get over them.

Regardless, BioWare wanted to appeal to a new set of fans - they got them. A divided and passionate fan base was inevitable with what they set out to do.

They made their bed, they need to lie in it.

[poerksen]

DaBigDragon wrote...

KillaCam7i3 wrote...

Sure, the ending was bad, but it was a blast all the way up to that point. You people need to get over it. Extended Cut is on the way to fix that. I'm reading stuff here about how the entire series is now completely trash, and people will never even consider buying another ME game ever again. It sounds like the CoD people on Gamefaqs. Every year they say it's garbage, but they go and buy it anyway.

Finally someone with common sense.

I still love ME1 and ME2, it is just sad that the trilogy had to end with such a mediocre game.

Putting the ending aside, I would rate this game between 6-7. ME1 and 2 were great in comparison to this installment. Traded in my copy of ME3 a couple of weeks ago and got Max Payne 3 instead, which is a better game.

The extended cut will most likely not fix anything, seeing as there are so many things wrong with the ending. Mission impossible basically. You cannot polish a turd.

[DatIrishFella]

spiros9110 wrote...

Auto-dialogue kills it for me. Game is great in many ways, but I find no replayability in it, compared to ME1&2.

[naughty99]

poerksen wrote...
You cannot polish a turd.

I beg to differ

DatIrishFella wrote...

spiros9110 wrote...

Auto-dialogue kills it for me. Game is great in many ways, but I find no replayability in it, compared to ME1&2.

 

Am I misunderstanding the term "auto-dialogue," or are you essentially saying there are too many pre-rendered CGI cutscenes in the game, so you are often just passively watching a movie instead of actively participating?

Modifié par naughty99, 08 juin 2012 - 01:24 .

[sparkyo42]

There's been plenty of posts listing out the issues of ME3, I'll just say that while there were high points overall I found it to be the weaker of the 3 games. Even without the Ending debacle by the end of the first play through my interest was dropping. I just never felt the connection to the game as 1&2 made me feel.

I didn't bother importing the other save games I have and instead deleted it after the first playthrough. At the moment my Collectors Edition disk is a beer mat.

I would agree that this shows that Bioware was and is trying to move from their traditional fanbase I found the game more a FPS with elements of rpg tacked on, rather than an RPG with fps

Modifié par sparkyo42, 08 juin 2012 - 01:19 .