518 réponses à ce sujet

[liggy002]

HagarIshay wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Uhm, controlling the reapers was described as a bad idea in all the lore, it's punishing you for not paying attention.

And killing synthetics was also considered a bad idea. But it doesn't stop you from thinking it's the best option.

  It sounds like the right thing to do to me, due to the fact that the Reapers are going to wipe out everyone you know and love and more if you don't destroy them.  Shepard doesn't have a choice where that is concerned (if you believe in the IT: it's either he destroys the Reapers or they control him and kill everyone eventually including Shepard himself)>

[dreamgazer]

Lord Goose wrote...

But, say, what if after Destroy Reapers will manipulate Shepard into destroying Crucible, making him believe that it is a Reapers trap, and when command allied fleet to disassamble and fly away? Yes, it would make harvest last longer, but in the end, Reapers would still win.

Truthfully, if Shepard's going to be doing any destroying, I don't think s/he will be destroying anything but the Reapers---and, potentially the technology that might have to go along with it.  Think about everything mental that Shepard has withstood since the beginning of the series, all to stop/destroy forces from annihilating galactic life.  Do you really think s/he is that weak-willed to be manipulated into willingly destroying other beings, after all this?  And no, you're not "willingly" destroying the geth in destroy's literal ending, since that's a blowback consequence to annihilating the greater threat.

Shepard's a special case; that's not my impression, but what's been established in the lore.  In terms of mental integrity and constitution, I'm pretty sure that means Shepard can't be manipulated to that caliber.  She can be manipulated to pick one of the pacifistic options in order to preserve life on less-destructive terms, but not to the point where s/he goes to the "dark side".

[Ageless Face]

balance5050 wrote...


EDI says shes willing to die in the struggle to beat the reapers, Geth Prime says something similar, and Garuss ties it all together with his "deadly calculus" ramblings. You have their blessing, now finish your mission soldier.....

No. You have their blessing to destroy the reapers. Not themsleves. EDI can talk all she wants, but let me remind you she is the happiest on the synthesis ending. Yes, it means a lot. And the heretics geth were willing to JOIN the repaers just because they didn't want to be destroyed. And Legion was willing to continue the war with the quarians just to upload the reaper codes. THAT is how much their lives mean to them.

Besides, the humans also said they will do everything to stop the reapers. So if you had the option to destroy the reapers but also to kill all the humans, would you do it?

[Lord Goose]

Geth Prime says something similar,

I assume, that as with all previous instances, you don't have a quote, right?

[liggy002]

dreamgazer wrote...

Lord Goose wrote...

But, say, what if after Destroy Reapers will manipulate Shepard into destroying Crucible, making him believe that it is a Reapers trap, and when command allied fleet to disassamble and fly away? Yes, it would make harvest last longer, but in the end, Reapers would still win.

Truthfully, if Shepard's going to be doing any destroying, I don't think s/he will be destroying anything but the Reapers---and, potentially the technology that might have to go along with it.  Think about everything mental that Shepard has withstood since the beginning of the series, all to stop/destroy forces from annihilating galactic life.  Do you really think s/he is that weak-willed to be manipulated into willingly destroying other beings, after all this?  And no, you're not "willingly" destroying the geth in destroy's literal ending, since that's a blowback consequence to annihilating the greater threat.

Shepard's a special case; that's not my impression, but what's been established in the lore.  In terms of mental integrity and constitution, I'm pretty sure that means Shepard can't be manipulated to that caliber.  She can be manipulated to pick one of the pacifistic options in order to preserve life on less-destructive terms, but not to the point where s/he goes to the "dark side".

  Shepard is a human being, not a god.  He is a hero but he is vulnerable just like everyone else and can be indoctrinated.  Remember how the paragon option in the bar in Purgatory is when Shepard chooses to tell Vega that he should not be treated differently from the other soldiers in the military?  The paragon Shepard believes that he is not above anyone else.  Shepard CAN be indoctrinated.  It is illogical to assume that he cannot be.  That scene is Bioware trying to tell us that Shepard is not invincible.

[Nightingale]

liggy002 wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Does Shepard complain of headaches or buzzing in his ear?

No, but we see the headaches happening in the TIM / Anderson scene and we hear those strange noises when TIM is supposedly controlling Shepard.

I thought this too, though after playing through the whole game half a dozen times (and trying to look at it from different perspectives), it occurs to me: they say that the Illusive Man's strength is his mind, which is why they didn't want to be "video game-y" and turn him into a monster for a final boss fight. What if the whispers and...err, oily shadows, at the edges of Shepard's vision are really just Bioware's way of trying to show TIM's attempts to control Shepard? As you said, it only happens when he is supposedly controlling Shepard, so maybe that really is all it is; just TIM forcing his way into Shepard's mind, not Indoctrination doing the same.

I always assumed the shaky camera was to "build tension" during the final mission. I mostly just found it annoying, since my first two playthroughs were as an Infiltrator and reminded me of Shepard's drunk aiming from the first game while lining up headshots. Now that you mention it though, it could definitely support IT. Perhaps at some point they were planning on making IT canon and just scrapped the idea poorly, since everyone seems so convinced that wasn't their final plan. It's little things like this that are so convincing.
Though my question is, does the gun do this before choosing the Destory ending (and after the magic elevator) or just once you're locked into that choice? (Edit: By "this" I mean being steady, rather than shaking like the rest of the mission.)
Apologies if someone has already adressed this, since I haven't read past the first page

Modifié par DrTsoni, 08 juin 2012 - 10:57 .

[OdanUrr]

HagarIshay wrote...

So if you had the option to destroy the reapers but also to kill all the humans, would you do it?

Now THAT would've been something, destroying the Reapers at the expense of Earth.

[dreamgazer]

liggy002 wrote...

  Shepard is a human being, not a god.  He is a hero but he is vulnerable just like everyone else and can be indoctrinated.  Remember how the paragon option in the bar in Purgatory is when Shepard chooses to tell Vega that he should not be treated differently from the other soldiers in the military?  The paragon Shepard believes that he is not above anyone else.  Shepard CAN be indoctrinated.  It is illogical to assume that he cannot be.  That scene is Bioware trying to tell us that Shepard is not invincible.

Yes, Shepard can be indoctrinated. I'm not arguing that fact.  

I'm arguing that Shepard can't be manipulated to THAT caliber, to a point where choosing destroy results in destroying other beings due to the catalyst "tricking" Shepard. 

[covertdrizzt]

That weapon bob is pretty strange. It can't be accidental. If you chose the control option, you become a reaper and are under the control of the catalyst.

[jla0644]

Not going to read through this whole thread, which seems to have devolved into yet another IT debate (aren't you guys tired of that yet? You're never going to convince anyone who doesn't already believe it). But are we still talking about the "weapon bob"? Because I just played through that mission, stood in the exact spot that was shown on the video, and it was perfectly and absolutely still. This was on 360. No way to capture video except on my phone, didn't turn out very well.

I guess that just means my Shepard was able to resist indoctrination better than that other person's Shepard.

[Ageless Face]

OdanUrr wrote...

HagarIshay wrote...

So if you had the option to destroy the reapers but also to kill all the humans, would you do it?

Now THAT would've been something, destroying the Reapers at the expense of Earth.

I think the original script had this option... The one with the dark energy.

[dmonorato]

Wow, weapon bob proves IT? really reaching for straws now aren't we?

[Lord Goose]

Shepard's a special case; that's not my impression, but what's been established in the lore. In terms of mental integrity and constitution, I'm pretty sure that means Shepard can't be manipulated to that caliber. She can be manipulated to pick one of the pacifistic options in order to preserve life on less-destructive terms, but not to the point where s/he goes to the "dark side".

I got your point, but.

I'm making my decisions based on emotions and logic both. Yes, picturing Shepard going stricken with paranoia and screwing everything up, is not pleasant. But in the same way picturing Shepard going Reaper's slave after choosing Control is no less bitter. Same with Synthesis.

However, if we go by basic premises of I. T., where is no logical reason for their impossibility. But, majority of ITers seems to accept Destroy as only true ending. What's why I'm thinking, that I. T. is mostly excuse to choose Destroy, rather than actual theory.

And no, you're not "willingly" destroying the geth in destroy's literal ending, since that's a blowback consequence to annihilating the greater threat.

In literal ending you still have an option to Control the Reapers. So, harvest would be stopped, Reaper's threat ended and no one besides Shepard will die.

I'm arguing that Shepard can't be manipulated to THAT caliber, to a point where choosing destroy results in destroying other beings due to the catalyst "tricking" Shepard.

According to I. T. he can potentially became Reaper's slave. I don't logically see, why it is impossible for him to became their unwilling servant.

Modifié par Lord Goose, 08 juin 2012 - 11:03 .

[OdanUrr]

dmonorato wrote...

Wow, weapon bob proves IT? really reaching for straws now aren't we?

Because someone has to...

Emergency induction ports.

Modifié par OdanUrr, 08 juin 2012 - 11:03 .

[Ageless Face]

jla0644 wrote...

Not going to read through this whole thread, which seems to have devolved into yet another IT debate (aren't you guys tired of that yet? You're never going to convince anyone who doesn't already believe it). But are we still talking about the "weapon bob"? Because I just played through that mission, stood in the exact spot that was shown on the video, and it was perfectly and absolutely still. This was on 360. No way to capture video except on my phone, didn't turn out very well.

I guess that just means my Shepard was able to resist indoctrination better than that other person's Shepard.

Lol, that's summs up this thread, I guess. 


OH, how far have we went from weapon bob...

Modifié par HagarIshay, 08 juin 2012 - 11:04 .

[balance5050]

Lord Goose wrote...

Geth Prime says something similar,

I assume, that as with all previous instances, you don't have a quote, right?

"There will be no more compromise with the old machines."

Modifié par balance5050, 08 juin 2012 - 11:04 .

[alec1898]

Being hit by a f*cking reaper laser may have a dizzying affect on someone. Those straws. They're not even THERE.

Modifié par alec1898, 08 juin 2012 - 11:05 .

[balance5050]

jla0644 wrote...

Not going to read through this whole thread, which seems to have devolved into yet another IT debate (aren't you guys tired of that yet? You're never going to convince anyone who doesn't already believe it). But are we still talking about the "weapon bob"? Because I just played through that mission, stood in the exact spot that was shown on the video, and it was perfectly and absolutely still. This was on 360. No way to capture video except on my phone, didn't turn out very well.

I guess that just means my Shepard was able to resist indoctrination better than that other person's Shepard.

It started with few, now we are many.

http://www.holdtheli...on-theory.1909/ 

[Lord Goose]

"There will be no more compromise with the old machines."

It's not really similiar to "our race would die to defeat them".

[balance5050]

alec1898 wrote...

Being hit by a f*cking reaper laser may have a dizzying affect on someone. Those straws. They're not even THERE.

Actually if you remember Rannoch, being hit by a reaper laser means insta-death. Which gives more credence that Harby was holding back.

 

Modifié par balance5050, 08 juin 2012 - 11:08 .

[balance5050]

Lord Goose wrote...

"There will be no more compromise with the old machines."

It's not really similiar to "our race would die to defeat them".

Sigh.... control and synthesis are a compromise.

[The Invisible Commando]

How in the world is this proof of IT?!!!!

Pretty sure the extra bob effect has more to do with Shepard being hit with, I don't know, A MASSIVE LASER!

[Lord Goose]

Sigh.... control and synthesis are a compromise.

That's matter of perception and perspective.
And you can still die from bleeding, you know.

[KingZayd]

HagarIshay wrote...

balance5050 wrote...


EDI says shes willing to die in the struggle to beat the reapers, Geth Prime says something similar, and Garuss ties it all together with his "deadly calculus" ramblings. You have their blessing, now finish your mission soldier.....

No. You have their blessing to destroy the reapers. Not themsleves. EDI can talk all she wants, but let me remind you she is the happiest on the synthesis ending. Yes, it means a lot. And the heretics geth were willing to JOIN the repaers just because they didn't want to be destroyed. And Legion was willing to continue the war with the quarians just to upload the reaper codes. THAT is how much their lives mean to them.

Besides, the humans also said they will do everything to stop the reapers. So if you had the option to destroy the reapers but also to kill all the humans, would you do it?

yup.

[KingZayd]

The Invisible Commando wrote...

How in the world is this proof of IT?!!!!

Pretty sure the extra bob effect has more to do with Shepard being hit with, I don't know, A MASSIVE LASER!

apparently the point is it already happens a little before the laser. watch the video?