518 réponses à ce sujet

[jla0644]

balance5050 wrote...

jla0644 wrote...

Not going to read through this whole thread, which seems to have devolved into yet another IT debate (aren't you guys tired of that yet? You're never going to convince anyone who doesn't already believe it). But are we still talking about the "weapon bob"? Because I just played through that mission, stood in the exact spot that was shown on the video, and it was perfectly and absolutely still. This was on 360. No way to capture video except on my phone, didn't turn out very well.

I guess that just means my Shepard was able to resist indoctrination better than that other person's Shepard.

It started with few, now we are many.

http://www.holdtheli...on-theory.1909/ 

Yeah, lots of people are wrong. And who cares? Just because more people believe it (on the HTL forum, btw, no chance of that being a biased source), that makes it true? That's some strange reasoning. But really, I couldn't care less. Not even the point of the post, but thanks.

I just watched proof that one of your pieces of "evidence" is false. Nothing to say about that, I suppose.

Modifié par jla0644, 08 juin 2012 - 11:15 .

[KingZayd]

balance5050 wrote...

alec1898 wrote...

Being hit by a f*cking reaper laser may have a dizzying affect on someone. Those straws. They're not even THERE.

Actually if you remember Rannoch, being hit by a reaper laser means insta-death. Which gives more credence that Harby was holding back.

I don't actually think he was holding back. For me, it didn't look like a direct hit. I think being nearly killed by the huge laser is what put him a) into dreamy land in a weakened mental state where the indoctrination that had already been present and had been growing with time could actually make a play for control of Shepard.

[PlumPaul93]

balance5050 wrote...It started with few, now we are many.

http://www.holdtheli...on-theory.1909/ 

I'd bet nearly 80% of those who voted that they believe in it only voted yes so that Bioware might use the IT.

Edit:although I've never actually been to those forums so they could really be that gullible.

Modifié par PlumPaul82393, 08 juin 2012 - 11:22 .

[dreamgazer]

Lord Goose wrote...

Shepard's a special case; that's not my impression, but what's been established in the lore. In terms of mental integrity and constitution, I'm pretty sure that means Shepard can't be manipulated to that caliber. She can be manipulated to pick one of the pacifistic options in order to preserve life on less-destructive terms, but not to the point where s/he goes to the "dark side".

I got your point, but.

I'm making my decisions based on emotions and logic both. Yes, picturing Shepard going stricken with paranoia and screwing everything up, is not pleasant. But in the same way picturing Shepard going Reaper's slave after choosing Control is no less bitter. Same with Synthesis.

However, if we go by basic premises of I. T., where is no logical reason for their impossibility. But, majority of ITers seems to accept Destroy as only true ending. What's why I'm thinking, that I. T. is mostly excuse to choose Destroy, rather than actual theory.

And no, you're not "willingly" destroying the geth in destroy's literal ending, since that's a blowback consequence to annihilating the greater threat.

In literal ending you still have an option to Control the Reapers. So, harvest would be stopped, Reaper's threat ended and no one besides Shepard will die.

I'm arguing that Shepard can't be manipulated to THAT caliber, to a point where choosing destroy results in destroying other beings due to the catalyst "tricking" Shepard.

According to I. T. he can potentially became Reaper's slave. I don't logically see, why it is impossible for him to became their unwilling servant.

Sorry, anything I'd say would be more of the same that I've already said.  Shepard could be swayed towards peaceful options, but he's not so weak that the Reapers can trick him into thinking that the picking destroy actually leads to destroying everything around him/her.  If you want to think that, cool beans. My Shepard's stronger-willed than that.  Liara told me so.  Shepard surviving Shiala's mind-meddling and remaining sane told me so.  And so on and so forth.

All I'll say is this: The Reapers are still alive in control and synthesis, and assuming that physically superior beings will remain under control and pacified for the rest of eternity is a big, BIG assumption.  But that's another discussion for another day.

And no, it's not just an excuse to pick destroy.  Destroying the threat---the only finite way of ending the geth, the collectors, and the Reapers---is what Shepard and his crew have been striving for since day one, the big goal.  If you don't think that while playing the game, then I'm not sure what else to say.  

[balance5050]

KingZayd wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

alec1898 wrote...

Being hit by a f*cking reaper laser may have a dizzying affect on someone. Those straws. They're not even THERE.

Actually if you remember Rannoch, being hit by a reaper laser means insta-death. Which gives more credence that Harby was holding back.

I don't actually think he was holding back. For me, it didn't look like a direct hit. I think being nearly killed by the huge laser is what put him a) into dreamy land in a weakened mental state where the indoctrination that had already been present and had been growing with time could actually make a play for control of Shepard.

He hit every other soldier, shuttle, and mako with pinpoint accuracy. Yet he shoots the ground severall meters in front of you and slowy inches the beam toward you. If Harby wanted you dead, you'd be dead.

Modifié par balance5050, 08 juin 2012 - 11:35 .

[liggy002]

dreamgazer wrote...

liggy002 wrote...

  Shepard is a human being, not a god.  He is a hero but he is vulnerable just like everyone else and can be indoctrinated.  Remember how the paragon option in the bar in Purgatory is when Shepard chooses to tell Vega that he should not be treated differently from the other soldiers in the military?  The paragon Shepard believes that he is not above anyone else.  Shepard CAN be indoctrinated.  It is illogical to assume that he cannot be.  That scene is Bioware trying to tell us that Shepard is not invincible.

Yes, Shepard can be indoctrinated. I'm not arguing that fact.  

I'm arguing that Shepard can't be manipulated to THAT caliber, to a point where choosing destroy results in destroying other beings due to the catalyst "tricking" Shepard. 

Oh, in that case, I agree with you.

[KingZayd]

balance5050 wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

alec1898 wrote...

Being hit by a f*cking reaper laser may have a dizzying affect on someone. Those straws. They're not even THERE.

Actually if you remember Rannoch, being hit by a reaper laser means insta-death. Which gives more credence that Harby was holding back.

I don't actually think he was holding back. For me, it didn't look like a direct hit. I think being nearly killed by the huge laser is what put him a) into dreamy land in a weakened mental state where the indoctrination that had already been present and had been growing with time could actually make a play for control of Shepard.

He hit every other soldier, shuttle, and mako with pinpoint accuracy. Yet he shoots he ground severall meter's in from of you and slowy inches the beam toward you. If Harby wanted you dead, you'd be dead.

I don't know about you, but I was taking evasive maneuvers, thinking they might count for something. I saw loads of misses personally, but then I wasn't focusing on my teammates.. maybe they should have zigzagged a little too.. i mean come on.. haven't they seen Apocalypto?

If Harby wanted us alive, then shooting at us with a huge laser is a bit risky isn't it? I believe Harby's desperately trying to kill everyone in that scene. Also, there were  Makos in the charge?

Modifié par KingZayd, 08 juin 2012 - 11:38 .

[balance5050]

KingZayd wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

alec1898 wrote...

Being hit by a f*cking reaper laser may have a dizzying affect on someone. Those straws. They're not even THERE.

Actually if you remember Rannoch, being hit by a reaper laser means insta-death. Which gives more credence that Harby was holding back.

I don't actually think he was holding back. For me, it didn't look like a direct hit. I think being nearly killed by the huge laser is what put him a) into dreamy land in a weakened mental state where the indoctrination that had already been present and had been growing with time could actually make a play for control of Shepard.

He hit every other soldier, shuttle, and mako with pinpoint accuracy. Yet he shoots he ground severall meter's in from of you and slowy inches the beam toward you. If Harby wanted you dead, you'd be dead.

I don't know about you, but I was taking evasive maneuvers, thinking they might count for something. I saw loads of misses personally, but then I wasn't focusing on my teammates.. maybe they should have zigzagged a little too.. i mean come on.. haven't they seen Apocalypto?

If Harby wanted us alive, then shooting at us with a huge laser is a bit risky isn't it? I believe Harby's desperately trying to kill everyone in that scene.

Agree to disagree on that one, it was all to perfect.

[Lord Goose]

Sorry, anything I'd say would be more of the same that I've
already said.

I understand and respect your opinion. Wouldn't argue about it. But emotional judgement is complicated thing. For example, i think that my Shepard is strong enough handle control.

My point is, that if we go by I. T., only logical answer to Calalyst lie is to the exact opposite of that he wanted. He says that we have to choose, so we should not making a choice instead and die from blood loss, placing faith in the galaxy races will find a way handle Reapers without Shepard. Because, from a standpoint of cold-blooded logic, if it is possible for Shepard to become slave of reapers, it should be possible for him to become their unwilling servant. It maybe emotionally unpleasant, yes, but logic is logic. It shouldn't be influenced by feelings.

But most ITers don't accept that. That's why I consider them to be IT supporters because it removes sad part from Destroy, and removes all responsibility. Its not the same as believing in I. T. and willing to choose Destroy in literal end.

Admit it, it would be a lot different, if IT would be saying that all three choices represents succumbing to indoctrination, and you can only choose degree of it.

[covertdrizzt]

Why can I only find this one video of the weapon bob? I would think there would be many. I searched and could only find this one.

[KingZayd]

balance5050 wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

alec1898 wrote...

Being hit by a f*cking reaper laser may have a dizzying affect on someone. Those straws. They're not even THERE.

Actually if you remember Rannoch, being hit by a reaper laser means insta-death. Which gives more credence that Harby was holding back.

I don't actually think he was holding back. For me, it didn't look like a direct hit. I think being nearly killed by the huge laser is what put him a) into dreamy land in a weakened mental state where the indoctrination that had already been present and had been growing with time could actually make a play for control of Shepard.

He hit every other soldier, shuttle, and mako with pinpoint accuracy. Yet he shoots he ground severall meter's in from of you and slowy inches the beam toward you. If Harby wanted you dead, you'd be dead.

I don't know about you, but I was taking evasive maneuvers, thinking they might count for something. I saw loads of misses personally, but then I wasn't focusing on my teammates.. maybe they should have zigzagged a little too.. i mean come on.. haven't they seen Apocalypto?

If Harby wanted us alive, then shooting at us with a huge laser is a bit risky isn't it? I believe Harby's desperately trying to kill everyone in that scene.

Agree to disagree on that one, it was all to perfect.

I assume we agree that the seeds of indoctrination are planted in Arrival? The way I see it, Harbinger was hoping he'd have Shepard's mind quite a bit before it came to this. Shepard's been too tough unfortunately for old Harby. I think Harby's a bit disappointed about this, but means to kill everyone there anyway. Funnily enough, his botched attempt is what weakens Shepard, and potentially makes his plan work out in the end.

[dreamgazer]

Lord Goose wrote...

Sorry, anything I'd say would be more of the same that I've
already said.

I understand and respect your opinion. Wouldn't argue about it. But emotional judgement is complicated thing. For example, i think that my Shepard is strong enough handle control.

My point is, that if we go by I. T., only logical answer to Calalyst lie is to the exact opposite of that he wanted. He says that we have to choose, so we should not making a choice instead and die from blood loss, placing faith in the galaxy races will find a way handle Reapers without Shepard. Because, from a standpoint of cold-blooded logic, if it is possible for Shepard to become slave of reapers, it should be possible for him to become their unwilling servant. It maybe emotionally unpleasant, yes, but logic is logic. It shouldn't be influenced by feelings.

But most ITers don't accept that. That's why I consider them to be IT supporters because it removes sad part from Destroy, and removes all responsibility. Its not the same as believing in I. T. and willing to choose Destroy in literal end.

Admit it, it would be a lot different, if IT would be saying that all three choices represents succumbing to indoctrination, and you can only choose degree of it.

I disagree with your black-and-white, fatalistic approach, but to each his own.  

Quite simply: I think Shepard could break free of indoctrination due to his/her mental constitution being stronger than most, a strength established in the lore, and your viewpoint makes that impossible.

[BP20125810]

balance5050 wrote...

alec1898 wrote...

Being hit by a f*cking reaper laser may have a dizzying affect on someone. Those straws. They're not even THERE.

Actually if you remember Rannoch, being hit by a reaper laser means insta-death. Which gives more credence that Harby was holding back.

 

A repeating theme with IT theorists is confusing game mechanics with clues for Indoctrination.  The Rannoch beams kill you because it is a boss fight.  The Harby beams do NOT kill you because it is just a cinematic-esque scene that is put in there to be "pretty" and "cool".  Think of it as explosion scenes in a movie.  You guys have to realize that Mass Effect 3 is a freaking VIDEO GAME.  It is not a real life account of the Shepard's adventures.  Developers are NOT %100 consistent in EVERY aspect of the game and you guys seem to mis-read things as clues to some imaginary conspiracy.

[KingZayd]

Lord Goose wrote...

Sorry, anything I'd say would be more of the same that I've
already said.

I understand and respect your opinion. Wouldn't argue about it. But emotional judgement is complicated thing. For example, i think that my Shepard is strong enough handle control.

My point is, that if we go by I. T., only logical answer to Calalyst lie is to the exact opposite of that he wanted. He says that we have to choose, so we should not making a choice instead and die from blood loss, placing faith in the galaxy races will find a way handle Reapers without Shepard. Because, from a standpoint of cold-blooded logic, if it is possible for Shepard to become slave of reapers, it should be possible for him to become their unwilling servant. It maybe emotionally unpleasant, yes, but logic is logic. It shouldn't be influenced by feelings.

But most ITers don't accept that. That's why I consider them to be IT supporters because it removes sad part from Destroy, and removes all responsibility. Its not the same as believing in I. T. and willing to choose Destroy in literal end.

Admit it, it would be a lot different, if IT would be saying that all three choices represents succumbing to indoctrination, and you can only choose degree of it.

This is actually what I believe. I think that indoctrination has already happened to some extent, and it can't just be cured, certainly not just because you choose not to be indoctrinated any more.

Accordingly, when you wake up, I don't think you're magically cured. I think with destroy, you've halted it at some point. If you pick control or synthesis, then you've succumbed a little more, maybe even to different levels? Whatever the case, the reaper taint is still there.. if you don't get rid of the reapers before you reach a threshold level, you never will.

[dreamgazer]

KingZayd wrote...

Accordingly, when you wake up, I don't think you're magically cured. I think with destroy, you've halted it at some point. If you pick control or synthesis, then you've succumbed a little more, maybe even to different levels? Whatever the case, the reaper taint is still there.. if you don't get rid of the reapers before you reach a threshold level, you never will.

Yeah, I've thought of this being a possibility as well.

Either way, Shepard's shaking the indoctrination off, at least for a small amount of time. 

[Lord Goose]

I think Shepard could break free of
indoctrination due to his/her mental constitution being
stronger than most, a strength established in the lore, and
your viewpoint makes that impossible.

On emotional side I do not understand, why, say, selfless desire not to let your allies die, making your friend's sacrifice meaningless, wouldn't allow Shepard to do the same thing. I mean, mostly Control is acceptable, because it lets geth live, withoug doing something nasty to whole Galaxy. I mean, crucial difference between Shepard and TIM is that, TIM only wanted to use Reapers for his own needs, while Shepard has good reason to do it for the someone else. Same with Saren. I just replayed the final battle, and it seems like that Saren primary motivation for becoming implanted was his desire to prove himself valuable to Reapers cause, and, thus, live up his idea of submission instead of extinction.

[dreamgazer]

Arcian wrote...

ITT: Imaginary people imaginarily grasping at imaginary straws.

Whoa, badass over here!

But yeah, it's totally the people interpreting indoctrination who are responsible for the hostility on the forum.  Totally.

[Taboo]

^ Yes. Interpreting. Interpreting. You'd get less flak if you said that.

It is not a theory.

An interpretation is never wrong.

[dreamgazer]

Lord Goose wrote...

I think Shepard could break free of
indoctrination due to his/her mental constitution being
stronger than most, a strength established in the lore, and
your viewpoint makes that impossible.

On emotional side I do not understand, why, say, selfless desire not to let your allies die, making your friend's sacrifice meaningless, wouldn't allow Shepard to do the same thing. I mean, mostly Control is acceptable, because it lets geth live, withoug doing something nasty to whole Galaxy. I mean, crucial difference between Shepard and TIM is that, TIM only wanted to use Reapers for his own needs, while Shepard has good reason to do it for the someone else. Same with Saren. I just replayed the final battle, and it seems like that Saren primary motivation for becoming implanted was his desire to prove himself valuable to Reapers cause, and, thus, live up his idea of submission instead of extinction.

I have no idea where you're going with this paragraph. So, good day. 

[KingZayd]

dreamgazer wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Accordingly, when you wake up, I don't think you're magically cured. I think with destroy, you've halted it at some point. If you pick control or synthesis, then you've succumbed a little more, maybe even to different levels? Whatever the case, the reaper taint is still there.. if you don't get rid of the reapers before you reach a threshold level, you never will.

Yeah, I've thought of this being a possibility as well.

Either way, Shepard's shaking the indoctrination off, at least for a small amount of time. 

Yeah, I don't think he's "hallucinating because he's that indoctrinated". I think he's dreaming an indoctrination-influenced dream because he's a)indoctrinated to some extent and b)knocked unconscious due to being almost killed by a massive laser-like weapon (i believe the codex says it isn't really an energy weapon)

[KingZayd]

Taboo-XX wrote...

^ Yes. Interpreting. Interpreting. You'd get less flak if you said that.

It is not a theory.

An interpretation is never wrong.

Actually: interpretations can be wrong, and so can theories.

[dreamgazer]

Taboo-XX wrote...

^ Yes. Interpreting. Interpreting. You'd get less flak if you said that.

It is not a theory.

An interpretation is never wrong.

I don't say that---I avoid it like the plague, if I can.  

I work with what's in front of me, not what's projected to come next.

[Taboo]

KingZayd wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

^ Yes. Interpreting. Interpreting. You'd get less flak if you said that.

It is not a theory.

An interpretation is never wrong.

Actually: interpretations can be wrong, and so can theories.

Not in art.

An interpretation in art is NEVER wrong. EVER.

Bioware can't do diddly poop to take it away.

[dreamgazer]

You're not just interpreting art here, though; you're interpreting a narrative based on pre-established elements in the arc. It's not like Rorschach tests or looking at clouds. There's plenty of basis in the story we're working with.

It's not straw-grasping flights of lunacy where folks are making sense of anything and everything. There's assuredly an anchor.