518 réponses à ce sujet

[redknight38]

KingZayd wrote...

Makrys wrote...

 Whedon's words are genius and I'll just leave them here.

"All worthy work is open to interpretations the author did not intend. Art isn't your pet -- it's your kid. It grows up and talks back to you." - Joss the Boss Whedon

It's open to interpretation, but it doesn't necessarily mean that all interpretations are valid. The interpretation that Shepard is a Rachni in disguise would be problematic.

Whedon is probably going off of a well-known principle of artistic critique that states that the minute an artwork is created, it is open to ALL interpretation. Not even the artist's original intent matters-- once something is created, then it exists on its own merits and can be interpreted however which way.

I think what people are missing here is that just because all art can be viewed however you want doesn't mean that all viewpoints are good if the argumenation is poor. An interpretation can be bad, but it doesn't have to be wrong since part of the experience of art is the viewer's individual subjective viewpoint. So yeah... an interpretation can be bad but it can never be wrong.

[Makrys]

KingZayd wrote...

Makrys wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

Makrys wrote...

 Whedon's words are genius and I'll just leave them here.

"All worthy work is open to interpretations the author did not intend. Art isn't your pet -- it's your kid. It grows up and talks back to you." - Joss the Boss Whedon

This.

Am I bad person for not seeing anything he's done except The Avengers?

Very bad. How the hell have you not seen Firefly?! Get with it, man.

+infinity.. and beyond!

Then watch Serenity. Now THAT'S how you end a series.

Agreed. Forgot about the movie. SO worth it. Still loved the show more though.

 Make it all happen, Taboo. You will thank me.

[KingZayd]

The Invisible Commando wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Makrys wrote...

 Whedon's words are genius and I'll just leave them here.

"All worthy work is open to interpretations the author did not intend. Art isn't your pet -- it's your kid. It grows up and talks back to you." - Joss the Boss Whedon

It's open to interpretation, but it doesn't necessarily mean that all interpretations are valid. The interpretation that Shepard is a Rachni in disguise would be problematic.

That made me smile. I think what Joss means is things like theorising on a characters motives and such. Not a total rewrite of the script.

Exactly. If the interpretation makes sense given what's there, then it's a valid interpretation. Even if it's not what the artist was going for.

If someone makes an interpretation, and I think it's nonsensical, then I would believe their interpretation to be invalid.. wrong.
If I felt it made sense, but it wasn't the interpretation I'd make, then according to my reasoning, their interpretation would be valid.


BUT, you could all laugh at me for saying the Sunflower painting represents "boobs", but if Van Gogh were around he could tell us that indeed I was right and explain how he felt it signifies "boobs" (note, I don't actually think this)

Modifié par KingZayd, 09 juin 2012 - 01:30 .

[dreamgazer]

redknight38 wrote...

I think what people are missing here is that just because all art can be viewed however you want doesn't mean that all viewpoints are good if the argumenation is poor. An interpretation can be bad, but it doesn't have to be wrong since part of the experience of art is the viewer's individual subjective viewpoint. So yeah... an interpretation can be bad but it can never be wrong.

Ding, ding.  Agreed.

[Sal86]

Interesting, I can safely say I never noticed the weapon bob at all.

If this is a clue to anything (be it IT or otherwise) then BW, we need some bigger clues please.

Also, Firely absolutely needs to be seen.

[OdanUrr]

dreamgazer wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

Am I bad person for not seeing anything he's done except The Avengers?

Oh, you've probably seen something he wrote without knowing it.

Firefly!

[Taboo]

I still have a big list of things I need to see.

BIG BACK LOG.

I have over one hundred written, typed and drawn pages over this debacle. All about Mass Effect 3. I haven't had much time to watch much of anything because I've been too busy with the BSN.

[Makrys]

After EC, watch Firefly you must.

Modifié par Makrys, 09 juin 2012 - 01:40 .

[Jadebaby]

Sire Styx wrote...

This is interesting. It seems to fit in well and would actually need to be programmed in. It would take more effort to explain this as bioware being lazy, because they'd have to be so lazy that they smashed their faces into a keyboard to type, and just so happened to press the right combination of keys to program this in.

The last part of the game is really odd, full of weird inconsistancies and strange occurances that we're saying means it's IT. Bioware would have had to have done no testing, had no discussion between different groups and stopped caring altogether when they got to the end. If this is the case, I'd never want to buy another game made by a comanpy this incompetent. I cannot believe then, that the game ending is anything other than IT.

yea i couldn't say it any better.

People say Bioware aren't this clever.

I say it's easier to believe they are this clever than to believe they are this incompetent.

[OdanUrr]

Jade8aby88 wrote...

yea i couldn't say it any better.

People say Bioware aren't this clever.

I say it's easier to believe they are this clever than to believe they are this incompetent.

That varies from person to person.

[Makrys]

Bioware loves twists. They practically sleep with them. Anybody remember NWN? How about Jade Empire? KOTOR anyone? They all had some pretty significant twists (especially KOTOR). Bioware said pre-release that ME3 would contain some big twist. Does it defy logic that they would want to pull the biggest twist they've ever done with the ending to the biggest trilogy they've ever done?

The answer should be obvious.

[Taboo]

I wish it was obvious. I just hope everyone gets what they want with the EC.

Shepard just needs Miranda. That's it.

For me at least.

I'm VERY easy to please.

[OdanUrr]

Makrys wrote...

Bioware loves twists. They practically sleep with them. Anybody remember NWN? How about Jade Empire? KOTOR anyone? They all had some pretty significant twists (especially KOTOR). Bioware said pre-release that ME3 would contain some big twist. Does it defy logic that they would want to pull the biggest twist they've ever done with the ending to the biggest trilogy they've ever done?

The answer should be obvious.

All of those had more than enough foreshadowing.

[KingZayd]

OdanUrr wrote...

Makrys wrote...

Bioware loves twists. They practically sleep with them. Anybody remember NWN? How about Jade Empire? KOTOR anyone? They all had some pretty significant twists (especially KOTOR). Bioware said pre-release that ME3 would contain some big twist. Does it defy logic that they would want to pull the biggest twist they've ever done with the ending to the biggest trilogy they've ever done?

The answer should be obvious.

All of those had more than enough foreshadowing.

As does indoctrination.

[Jonata]

Makrys wrote...

Bioware loves twists. They practically sleep with them. Anybody remember NWN? How about Jade Empire? KOTOR anyone? They all had some pretty significant twists (especially KOTOR). Bioware said pre-release that ME3 would contain some big twist. Does it defy logic that they would want to pull the biggest twist they've ever done with the ending to the biggest trilogy they've ever done?

The answer should be obvious.

It defy logic that they would want to put that ultimate twist outside the biggest trilogy they've ever done. Also, it defies logic (and the law of averages) that a non-planned DLC that is taking them 4 months of development is actually a planned metagaming twist that will coincidentally solve their PR problems with some of the fanbase.

EDIT: I would like to say that if someone says that this has never been done in the history of gaming, it's not because of innovation or originality. It's because it does not make sense.

Modifié par Jonata, 09 juin 2012 - 01:58 .

[OdanUrr]

KingZayd wrote...

OdanUrr wrote...

Makrys wrote...

Bioware loves twists. They practically sleep with them. Anybody remember NWN? How about Jade Empire? KOTOR anyone? They all had some pretty significant twists (especially KOTOR). Bioware said pre-release that ME3 would contain some big twist. Does it defy logic that they would want to pull the biggest twist they've ever done with the ending to the biggest trilogy they've ever done?

The answer should be obvious.

All of those had more than enough foreshadowing.

As does indoctrination.

Beg to differ.

Also, all of those games' twists are in the games themselves.

[Makrys]

Jonata wrote...

Makrys wrote...

Bioware loves twists. They practically sleep with them. Anybody remember NWN? How about Jade Empire? KOTOR anyone? They all had some pretty significant twists (especially KOTOR). Bioware said pre-release that ME3 would contain some big twist. Does it defy logic that they would want to pull the biggest twist they've ever done with the ending to the biggest trilogy they've ever done?

The answer should be obvious.

It defy logic that they would want to put that ultimate twist outside the biggest trilogy they've ever done. Also, it defies logic (and the law of averages) that a non-planned DLC that is taking them 4 months of development is actually a planned metagaming twist that will coincidentally solve their PR problems with some of the fanbase.

Who said it wasn't planned? And you do know that they asked EA for 6 months extra development time, and only received 3. It is entirely possible that upon getting only an extra 3 months, they decided to leave the ending open, and finish it with a DLC. We know they were rushed. That much is evident. And we also know they are extremely secretive about the EC. Could be a number of reasons why, but it seems most likely that they don't want you to know what is in it. If a twist lies therein, it will not be revealed until they are ready to reveal it, or until you play the EC.

You can refuse to beleive they would do it all you want. I'm simply saying, the past evidence is there. 

[dreamgazer]

OdanUrr wrote...

Beg to differ.

Also, all of those games' twists are in the games themselves.

I really don't understand why BioWare must be forced to only do the things they've done in the past.

They have a propensity towards environment-altering, reality-questioning, mind-numbing twists, and this would be a new way of executing one of those. 

Modifié par dreamgazer, 09 juin 2012 - 02:06 .

[Makrys]

OdanUrr wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

OdanUrr wrote...

Makrys wrote...

Bioware loves twists. They practically sleep with them. Anybody remember NWN? How about Jade Empire? KOTOR anyone? They all had some pretty significant twists (especially KOTOR). Bioware said pre-release that ME3 would contain some big twist. Does it defy logic that they would want to pull the biggest twist they've ever done with the ending to the biggest trilogy they've ever done?

The answer should be obvious.

All of those had more than enough foreshadowing.

As does indoctrination.

Beg to differ.

Also, all of those games' twists are in the games themselves.

There is a ton of foreshadowing for those looking for it. The same can be said of Kotor. Most people did not expect that twist. Though few did. Same can be said of the IT.

And the 'reveal' most likely would have been in game if they had more time. They were rushed, and only given an extra 3 months of dev time when they asked for 6.

Regardless, we know nothing until the EC.

Modifié par Makrys, 09 juin 2012 - 02:05 .

[OdanUrr]

dreamgazer wrote...

I really don't understand why BioWare must be forced to only do the things they've done in the past.

They have a propensity towards environment-altering, reality-questioning, mind-numbing twists, and this would be a new way of executing one of those. 

Not my point. My point is people have been naming these games as evidence in support of IT but the context is different.

[OdanUrr]

Makrys wrote...

There is a ton of foreshadowing for those looking for it. The same can be said of Kotor. Most people did not expect that twist. Though few did. Same can be said of the IT.

And the 'reveal' most likely would have been in game if they had more time. They were rushed, and only given an extra 3 months of dev time when they asked for 6.

Regardless, we know nothing until the EC.

They were supposed to deliver on November 2011. Why didn't they?

[dreamgazer]

OdanUrr wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

I really don't understand why BioWare must be forced to only do the things they've done in the past.

They have a propensity towards environment-altering, reality-questioning, mind-numbing twists, and this would be a new way of executing one of those. 

Not my point. My point is people have been naming these games as evidence in support of IT but the context is different.

The context may be different, but the intention and motive---and, in many instances, the dynamics---are the same. 

[Jadebaby]

OdanUrr wrote...

Jade8aby88 wrote...

yea i couldn't say it any better.

People say Bioware aren't this clever.

I say it's easier to believe they are this clever than to believe they are this incompetent.

That varies from person to person.

of course, and it could even just boil down to whether one is an optimist or a pessimist. But based on their previous work, they deserve the benefit of the doubt.

[KingZayd]

OdanUrr wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

OdanUrr wrote...

Makrys wrote...

Bioware loves twists. They practically sleep with them. Anybody remember NWN? How about Jade Empire? KOTOR anyone? They all had some pretty significant twists (especially KOTOR). Bioware said pre-release that ME3 would contain some big twist. Does it defy logic that they would want to pull the biggest twist they've ever done with the ending to the biggest trilogy they've ever done?

The answer should be obvious.

All of those had more than enough foreshadowing.

As does indoctrination. 

Beg to differ.

Also, all of those games' twists are in the games themselves.

Really?

In order of release:

ME1: (Thorian version of indoctrination, and Zhu's hope), Shiala, Rana's research, Beneziah, Saren (and other randoms)
ME2: Derelict Reaper, Collectors (basically indoctrinated and modified Protheans)
Mass Effect Retribution: Grayson
Mass Effect Evolution: Ben Hislop, and TIM hit by reaper artifact. Ben is indoctrinated, TIM is changed. (hints that he's been partially indoctrinated). Desolas Arterius gets indoctrinated. The same artifact activates near Saren, and some believe thats he got the beginnings of indoctrination too.
ME2 Arrival: Everyone Object Rho activates on ends up indoctrinated (except for Shepard? Why?)
ME3: Balak tells you Leviathan of Dis ended up indoctrinating most of a Batarian system. Cerberus studies indoctrination at Sanctuary and get results. TIM uses indoctrination.  Rana Thanoptis is indoctrinated. Shiala hears the reaper voices and tells you she's still indoctrinated. Kai Leng is indoctrinated. TIM is indoctrinated.

Tons of foreshadowing.
 

[Makrys]

OdanUrr wrote...

Makrys wrote...

There is a ton of foreshadowing for those looking for it. The same can be said of Kotor. Most people did not expect that twist. Though few did. Same can be said of the IT.

And the 'reveal' most likely would have been in game if they had more time. They were rushed, and only given an extra 3 months of dev time when they asked for 6.

Regardless, we know nothing until the EC.

They were supposed to deliver on November 2011. Why didn't they?

They were given 3 extra months, hence March. Obviously they needed more time, that's why they didn't.