42 réponses à ce sujet

[PsychoBlonde]

 I'm creating this thread per a request.  Anyhoo, here's the relevant comments from on or about this post:

David Gaider wrote...


The most obvious way would be to eliminate the need for animation (or cinematics) to touch all writing-- so a way for some conversations to be done ambiently. No zoom-in, no animations or facial expressions (so the same way party banter is currently done) but yet still allowing for the conversation wheel to be used (though how this would be done with the player still possessing movement capability is difficult to say). This requires changes to the engine, and it's hard to say whether players would be okay having some conversations be done like this. 

to which I replied:

PsychoBlonde wrote...

Personally, I think it'd be cool if you had occasional "traveling" or "resting" pop-up conversations, where you get a very static scene with minimal animation (such as seeing two characters sitting in a cart while they're riding somewhere, or standing next to each other looking over a wall/bridge, that sort of thing, and they have a discussion.  While this wouldn't be a perfect solution it would radically diminish the need for animation/lip synching, which, if not the most (monetary) costly is probably the most time-consuming part of the process.

I have absolutely NO PROBLEM with you guys taking advantage of these sorts of tricks to squeeze more characterization/interaction/plot into the game.  Granted, I'm sure there'll be at least one person who will declare it the Antichrist, but c'est la vie. 

followed by:

KiddDaBeauty wrote . . .

That was actually bloody brilliant. It even adds a sense of travel at the same time. I can totally get behind banters, whether the protagonist gets to join in or not, in this manner. Might feel very mechanical if we know every time people start talking on the cart, the PC will be joining in - it'd feel organic if the PC was simply joining in most of the time instead of always.

Sense of travel, cheap animations, David's team gets to cram in more dialogue for nothing but the voice over budget... colour me seduced, sweet talker =)

EDIT: You really should create a separate thread for this. It's a great idea methinks and needs to be discussed properly by us and developers alike. I think having it mentioned in the weekly bisexual LI thread does it great injustice. 

Now, I didn't think this was all that radical or meaningful a suggestion, but I do think that SOMETHING like this would give a better sense of the passage of time/distance and (maybe) be less work for more gain than the little "walk in on companions talking when you go to visit one of them in their house" scenes we had in DA2.  It would also be VERY easy to create a LARGE NUMBER of scenes of this nature where the only thing that differs is the voiceover/dialog options, so you could squeeze a lot of NPC's (or PC!) reacting to things that happen into a smaller amount of work/expense.  It could also be a great opportunity to showcase art style/landscape design if all you're showing is various cuts/pans of landscape, views, wildernes camps, taverns, mystic ominous hallways, whatever you like.

So go ahead get on with pronouncing it the Antichrist so I don't feel all left out and junk.

Modifié par PsychoBlonde, 08 juin 2012 - 09:34 .

[nightcobra]

that's actually a great idea on how to squeeze more dialogue and characterization without using much on terms of animations and such.

a few examples that come to mind:

main character and party member sitting besides a campfire, ala the conversation with alistair about the archdemon dreams but done in such a way that the focus of the scene would be the fire itself and on both sides of the screen we see the backs of said characters sitting down just taking a rest with simple animations like nodding, turning the head or lying down to get some sleep.

another type of scene could be like you said, the characters overlooking a bridge or a balcony with the focus being the scenery while we choose the dialogue.

[MichaelStuart]

If it adds more story than I support this.

note: It actual annoyed me when characters walked around during conversations

[Kidd]

Obviously I support this very much, considering I was quoted in the first post =)

[Sacred_Fantasy]

PsychoBlonde wrote...

Personally, I think it'd be cool if you had occasional "traveling" or "resting" pop-up conversations, where you get a very static scene with minimal animation (such as seeing two characters sitting in a cart while they're riding somewhere, or standing next to each other looking over a wall/bridge, that sort of thing, and they have a discussion.  While this wouldn't be a perfect solution it would radically diminish the need for animation/lip synching, which, if not the most (monetary) costly is probably the most time-consuming part of the process.

I have absolutely NO PROBLEM with you guys taking advantage of these sorts of tricks to squeeze more characterization/interaction/plot into the game.  Granted, I'm sure there'll be at least one person who will declare it the Antichrist, but c'est la vie. 

Mike Laidlaw mentioned something about "fireside chat" where you can chat all you want and hug your companions. I like the idea very much and I think what Mike Laidlaw had suggested is similar to what you have propose, unless I intrepet it  incorrectly. But yes I fully support ambient conversation as mentioned by David Gaider. 

[schalafi]

I would like that too. I kept noticing in DA2 that a lot of casual conversations, while walking around, got interrupted by enemies popping up, so you never did get to hear the whole dialogue. It was frustrating to have an npc still talking while we were fighing.

Stopping by a scenic view along the Wounded Coast, or even just stopping to look at  statues in the Gallows, with Varric commenting on them, was a nice way to make the npcs seem more natural. A fireside chat would be a great way to converse with a lot of  your npcs without really moving around.

Modifié par schalafi, 08 juin 2012 - 02:03 .

[Reznore57]

I actually liked party banter , and the fact that Hawke interract more with it in DLC.
But I agree that personnal interaction were lacking in DA2 , or maybe they weren't but the fact it was tied to quests felt that way.
Now i read people idea , i think it's interesting but I don't really like npc being static in cinematics.It's not a deal breaker , and i'm not talking about them walking around , just little thing like seeing Fenris drink or Isabella playing cards add to the scene.
I like the idea of a campfire ,with pnj sitting on the ground , it feels more natural than being up all the time.
Guess one companion can write you letter and you could respond to it , I liked the letter in DA2 but there was no way to answer back.

[Dakota Strider]

Absolutely agree. Seeing animated characters trying to lip sych to the pre-recorded voice acting does nothing to add to the game. We would be served just as well, or better with still-shots/Polaroids of the people speaking. They could even go so far, as to change the still shot, to have a different expression of the person "speaking" based on previous replies. Not going to post them here, but I am sure most of you have seen some of the crazy animations/facial contortions the characters make in DA2 when in these cutscenes. Still shots would allow the DA team to present the best depiction of the characters for each conversation.

And of course, the biggest benefit, as stated in the OP and others, is that by saving money by deleting cinematics, we can get fuller, longer, and more frequent conversations. Save the cinematics for the really special events...like the appearance of an ancient dragon, or a war scene, at Ostagar, or at Denerim. Everyone wins this way.

[LolaLei]

I like this idea OP. Maybe another way to impliment it would be during mini "flashback" scenes in camp or something, for example, you recently recruited a new companion and you want to ask him how he came to be in Orlais or wherever, the companion starts to tell you his story as it goes into a short animation sequence of him escaping from prison or whatever with the characters VA narrating it, perhaps to add a different dynamic to it, the player could take control of the companion and play as him during said "flashback."

I really like the idea of chatting with companions whilst looking out across some breathtaking view. Perhaps something similar to the Mass Effect 3 "shore leave" would be an interesting way to impliment it. Between quests your companions could go off to do there own thing/explore the city and you can check in on them in passing and have a conversation whilst looking out to sea or whatever. Then, when they've got something really important they to talk about (like their companion quest or the romance arc) you'd have the time consuming flashy cinematics/lipsync'ed stuff.

Modifié par LolaLei, 08 juin 2012 - 03:47 .

[nightcobra]

LolaLei wrote...

I like this idea OP. Maybe another way to impliment it would be during mini "flashback" scenes in camp or something, for example, you recently recruited a new companion and you want to ask him how he came to be in Orlais or wherever, the companion starts to tell you his story as it goes into a short animation sequence of him escaping from prison or whatever with the characters VA narrating it, perhaps to add a different dynamic to it, the player could take control of the companion and play as him during said "flashback."

i had that idea too, the narration while you're controlling the party member's backstory short mission could be done more or less like bastion or max paine where it's the party member narrating this short story as you play it.
whenever the party member has a conversation with another npc during this backstory mission, you could have the scene play out as the party member narrates the scene while the characters move just enough to make it seem like they're talking.

ex:

 


now, imagine this as a playable section without any voices, just music and sound effects while fenris narrates the scene to the player. 

Modifié par nightcobra8928, 08 juin 2012 - 03:58 .

[LolaLei]

Funnily enough Bastion was the game I was thinking of when I wrote that, but I couldn't remember what the game was called LOL.

[Beck 85]

FDR approves of fireside chats, but honestly this is a great idea that I would love to see implemented in game.

[LolaLei]

Nightcobra: That YouTube video is EXACTLY the sort of thing I was describing! The flashback could be played out like that all the way through with no playable section, or you'd get cut scenes like that between the playable sections. To be honest I'd be happy with either.

The nice thing about actually seeing the trials your companions have been through prior to meeting the protagonist is that you get a greater sense of insight into the character.

Modifié par LolaLei, 08 juin 2012 - 04:21 .

[brushyourteeth]

I agree completely. Lack of cinematic character close-ups may really annoy some people, and I agree that it would be weird to have the focus be off the NPC for really pivotal conversations (like the lovey-dovey ones or the "I hate you" ones) but if what we're doing is assessing the current status of our mission or learning/sharing backstory on a character I am absolutely fine with having the scenic focus be elsewhere.

For instance, I could totally imagine Alistair and I lying on our backs and looking at the stars while I talk about what my life was before Duncan found me, with the sound of the campfire crackling in the background. Obviously this is DAIII and not DA:O, but I would be super happy with seeing a short animation of us cozying down by the fire and then watching a screen full of twinkling stars while we talk. Especially if it's mostly me doing the talking - I remember what I look like and am usually more interested in the NPC's response. This could actually be a great time for the VA's talent to really shine without a visual to compete for our attention. Maybe, to use my example, when Alistair suddenly responded with something flirtatious or serious (relating to the Blight) I would suddenly sit up and look at him again for the closing moments of the conversation.

Sitting on a dock and watching the ships come in, sitting in a crowded tavern while the patrons carouse in it (easier to show NPC's walking around/sitting at tables than animating speech, right?), watching a herd of halla graze lazily... lots of possibilities.

[PsychoBlonde]

Nice to see so many positive replies--and the negative-ish ones aren't just total rejections of the idea.

Personally, I think they could take it all the way to the wall and get an AMAZING amount of mileage out of this sort of thing.

If they decide to stick with the framed narrative thing, take it to the next level. It's generally an unmentioned conceit in games like this that the PC or SOMEBODY keeps a journal where all the codex/quest info actually gets "written down". Why not have a framed narrative where the PC or NPC's are basically reading aloud their journal and recounting events? Even better, include the premise that the PC or NPC's do some sketching (a common thing before photographs), then take your concept art and include it as the visuals periodically. Now your concept art isn't just a necessary prep stage or a marketing tool, it is an integrated part of your money production. You are getting more value out of the same amount of work.

You can also make extra use of the framed narrative (IF YOU DECIDE TO USE IT AGAIN) by showing scenes where NPC's are present but the PC is not. I, for one, really enjoy having more independent NPC's, and I think that if they have occasional conversations with other NPC's where the PC isn't present it would be pretty interesting. I really loved when Obsidian did this in KotOR, it added some real depth to things.

There hasn't been a lot of conceptual playing around in the series to date, yet this sort of thing adds so much to the game. Just as an example taken from another game: in DDO, there's a (perhaps somewhat silly) conceit based around the resting mechanic, namely that there are gameplay objects called "shrines" (that look like monoliths with glowing symbols on them), which you use to recover your spell points/daily abilities/some hit points. Yet, even they still play around with this concept, so that you have the following shrine-related oddities:

1. In some places, the shrine room pops a message that says "this feels like a safe place to rest for a moment". Fairly standard.
2. In some places, the shrines are treated as actual physical objects. There's at least one quest where you come upon a *destroyed* rest shrine and get a message that "even the shrines aren't safe!" It makes you blink a bit and wonder about the 'physics" of this whole "shrine conceit" a bit.
3. There's a quest inside a building, and they shrank the shrines way down and made them toilet paper rolls in the bathroom. It never fails to get a laugh the first time people see it.

I just think that The Next Thing could really benefit from a lot more moments like these, where things are changed up, simplified, or even made rather surreal.

[Kidd]

PsychoBlonde wrote...

Nice to see so many positive replies--and the negative-ish ones aren't just total rejections of the idea.

Told you it was good

[devSin]

I'm not sure it really solves the problem in an elegant way, though. It would take you out of the game, for the purposes of a conversation, but then would present itself off as a lesser conversation (rather than the fully animated sequences they're trying to move toward). "Here's a section where you won't be playing anything, but unlike the normal conversations you've had so far, you're also not really going to be seeing anything."

I would much rather they find ways to get away from the cutscene mode for all conversations. It's a challenge, to be sure, but I think the results would ultimately be better than simply trying to make the cutscene mode cheaper to do. Instead of coming up with contrived scenarios where you can hide faces or obviate most movement, they need an ambient system that allows for more depth than simple barks (and it seemed they were really working on this for the expansion, and hopefully they've got some more ideas now of how to make these exchanges more substantial).

[Apollo Starflare]

Yeah I'm a big fan of this concept. Playing Origins I always felt something like this would fit in with the Indiana Jones style map travel in a weird way. As you say, they wouldn't have to go overboard with it. It would act as a way to further add party banter and characterisation.

[wsandista]

Well I think this idea is horrible, just because everyone seems to like it and this wouldn't be a proper BSN thread if some a*****e didn't waltz in and say something.

Seriously though, I think the idea is great, not only because it reduces chances of seeing awkward animations, but also money saved from doing cinematics can go to more content. More content usually correlates to more gameplay, which usually isn't a bad thing.

[AkiKishi]

If it's being used during travel, any chance it can be used in place of load screens ? Sort of like the lift conversations in ME.

[nightcobra]

BobSmith101 wrote...

If it's being used during travel, any chance it can be used in place of load screens ? Sort of like the lift conversations in ME.

hmm... how about travelling "loading screens" with narration? kinda like how varric segways from arc to arc but with the pictures showing mostly the scenery and sillouetes travelling while we hear some flavor conversation.

no animations and no cinematics, just a great looking picture of your party travelling to the place you're going while you hear party banter. loading won't be just filler, you'll look forward to hear the next banter  or see the next concept art of the place you're going.

Modifié par nightcobra8928, 09 juin 2012 - 08:42 .