38 réponses à ce sujet

[seireikhaan]

So first thing's first.  Yeah, he's a bit of a jerk, and a fairly poor communicator to boot.  But, I can't help but feel like people aren't evaluating him in proper context.  Here's a guy in charge of leading his people, and he's handed what's possibly a once in a lifetime opportunity to avenge his ancestors and reclaim his home.  He has a weapon that will allow his fleet to chew through his enemy and provide his people a home so can fight the reapers without having to protect the civilian fleet at the same time.  He's fought against geth his whole life, and suddenly he has the ability to wipe out an ancestral enemy who, from his perspective, has been nothing but hostile his whole life, and killed his old friend and most respected colleague.  Not only that, but given the geth aren't mortal entities, he can even take revenge on the very geth who nearly wiped out his own race. 

Now some alien, not even a proper ranking captain, wants to tell him that he should have blind trust that said ancestral enemy wants peace?  When, at most, he's witnessed one non-hostile geth platform, amidst who knows how many?  What evidence suggests that the geth want peace?  He should trust the geth when they handed themselves over to Reaper control?  He should trust that allowing them to continue having reaper upgrades would be anyting other than a total disaster?  Would this sound believable to anyone else, in his context?  Personally, I don't think so.

Basically, I loved how Gerrel was presented.  If nothing else, he behaved more realistically than dang near anybody else in this game.  His character is utterly consistent, devoted, and doesn't just kneel over to Shepard just because (s)he is "the chosen one"/protagonist.  For standing up for your own people, I salute you, Admiral.  

And boo on the people who punched him for doing his job. 

[MadCat221]

He doesn't think. He's a snarling attack dog that doesn't for a moment consider things.

The Geth went to the Reapers specifically because of his warmongering.  We have Gerrel, Xen, and all like-minded quarians to blame for their predicament in the war.

What evidence? They didn't finish the job. They never instigated anything against the Quarians. The Geth never start fights with the Quarians, but they sure as hell finished them.

They'd have plenty of other evidence as well, if they hadn't propagandized out all the geth sympathizers during the Morning War out of their history.

And due to the nature of the Geth... if you've met one non-Hostile geth, you've met them all.

And yay to everyone who punches the reckless idiot. When you're saying "The Geth never wanted to fight you, if you can believe that even for a minute, this war will be over", what you're REALLY saying is "Gerrel, so help me if you do not stand down I will reach through this comm line and gutpunch you again!"

Modifié par MadCat221, 08 juin 2012 - 02:38 .

[Aurora313]

MadCat221 wrote...


And yay to everyone who punches the reckless idiot. When you're saying "The Geth never wanted to fight you, if you can believe that even for a minute, this war will be over", what you're REALLY saying is "Gerrel, so help me if you do not stand down I will reach through this comm line and gutpunch you again!"

I like how you think, friend.

[His Name was HYR!!]

 In-universe: Shepard likes him for mostly being on Tali's side in her trial, then sees him as a pain in the arse when trying to lend assistance in their war efforts.

Out-of-universe: I think he's a great character. I actually like what they did with the Admiralty Board in general. There are many sides to the geth-quarian conflict and they represent a diverse set of opinions: one guy who's bent on war, one guy who is open to peace, one who sees them as just machines to experiment on/control, one weak-minded pushover who bends to the first one and the last one. He's a warhawk, the kind of leader I'm not a big fan of IRL but brings something unique/realistic to this story, which I appreciate.

[Edolix]

I liked him in ME2, but he did a complete 180 into ME3. I understand why people hate him. Heck, i'm pretty fond of the quarians yet I still ended up gut-punching him. He was reckless, blind and risked compromising everything.

What I find sad though, is that a lot of people look at Gerrel and go "right, the quarians deserve to die. All 17million of them." Makes me shake my head with disbelief.

[Joe Del Toro]

I thought it was hilarious how him and Koris just completely switch around in terms of who's more likeable. I'm honestly not sure if that's good or bad writing.

[MadCat221]

Joe Del Toro wrote...

I thought it was hilarious how him and Koris just completely switch around in terms of who's more likeable. I'm honestly not sure if that's good or bad writing.

Actually, I had the likeability switch at the end of Tali's loyalty mission in ME2.  Koris went "My bad" immediately, while Gerrel's thought was "Any goodies you find over there?" despite the fact that his old buddy had just died.

[Joe Del Toro]

MadCat221 wrote...

Joe Del Toro wrote...

I thought it was hilarious how him and Koris just completely switch around in terms of who's more likeable. I'm honestly not sure if that's good or bad writing.

Actually, I had the likeability switch at the end of Tali's loyalty mission in ME2.  Koris went "My bad" immediately, while Gerrel's thought was "Any goodies you find over there?" despite the fact that his old buddy had just died.

True. Might be it's been a while since I played that mission and actually bothered to speak to any of the Admirals after completing it.

[His Name was HYR!!]

Joe Del Toro wrote...

I thought it was hilarious how him and Koris just completely switch around in terms of who's more likeable. I'm honestly not sure if that's good or bad writing.

Good writing. Things change, but they stayed consistent to their characters. They're only more "likeable" based on the players' preferences at a given time - you like the one who's on your side.

And let's be honest, most people only hated Koris because he wanted to exile their WAIFU!!!

[Joe Del Toro]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Joe Del Toro wrote...

I thought it was hilarious how him and Koris just completely switch around in terms of who's more likeable. I'm honestly not sure if that's good or bad writing.

Good writing. Things change, but they stayed consistent to their characters. They're only more "likeable" based on the players' preferences at a given time - you like the one who's on your side.

And let's be honest, most people only hated Koris because he wanted to exile their WAIFU!!!

Partly agree. After all, most people would have done the Tali LM before seeing Legion and what he was all about, likely meaning the player would think Koris' plans for peace with the geth were insane. So you got that much right.

In ME3, though, it just seems to happen so suddenly. My first impression was 'Oh, Han, I remember him, I liked him. Koris was a douche as I recall'. Then right out of the gate the game's like 'No, no, you're supposed to like THIS guy now'. Might just be me, I just felt it should have been introduced a little more subtly.

Modifié par Joe Del Toro, 08 juin 2012 - 03:08 .

[seireikhaan]

MadCat221 wrote...

He doesn't think. He's a snarling attack dog that doesn't for a moment consider things.

The Geth went to the Reapers specifically because of his warmongering.  We have Gerrel, Xen, and all like-minded quarians to blame for their predicament in the war.

No, the geth went to the reapers because they lack judgment.  They would rather actively help condemn all other species than try to win their own war.  There is *always* a choice, and the geth made an incredibly stupid and/or selfish one.  As for him thinking, I think I explained perfectly well what the quarian rationale for the war was.  They had the best opportunity they've possibly ever had and ever will have to take back their home.  What actual basis exists in *their* lifetimes to suggest peace is not just possible, but likely?  So of course they went to war.  And, as I said, they wanted a base of operations for the reaper invasion.  A place civilians could actually stay, since it isn't as though the council has ever helped them with that.

What evidence? They didn't finish the job. They never instigated anything against the Quarians. The Geth never start fights with the Quarians, but they sure as hell finished them.

So hold on, he's supposed to be happy that only 99% of his ancestors were exterminated?  That's actually supposed to be an argument in favor of recognizing geth mercy and peacefulness?  Good grief.

They'd have plenty of other evidence as well, if they hadn't propagandized out all the geth sympathizers during the Morning War out of their history.

And due to the nature of the Geth... if you've met one non-Hostile geth, you've met them all.

And yay to everyone who punches the reckless idiot. When you're saying "The Geth never wanted to fight you, if you can believe that even for a minute, this war will be over", what you're REALLY saying is "Gerrel, so help me if you do not stand down I will reach through this comm line and gutpunch you again!"

"They" being who, exactly?  There's no evidence Gerrel did anything of the sort- he can only deal with the information at hand.  And try using that geth explanation when every other geth has opened fire on his people in his lifetime.  Again, one platform does not make a rule, even with a collective entity.  His past experience will trump that- see Haestrom as an example of how usual quarian-geth interactions go.  Ask legion itself- the geth have assumed hostilities with quarians as well in every given scenario.  Legion was specifically made for interacting with organics- every other time, the geth themselves have assumed hostility as well.  So frankly, I cannot see for the life of me why Gerrel should trust Shepard's word when everything he knows says otherwise.

Modifié par seireikhaan, 08 juin 2012 - 03:36 .

[BP93]

He's a moron and a big reason why I sided with the Geth.

Gerrel exemplified everything that was pretty much wrong with the Quarians I thought. Too "war-hungry" and want to destroy the Geth for reasons that are entirely their fault. The Geth consensus mission bolstered my belief that the Geth were innocent and that the Quarians were just stupid.

[MadCat221]

BP93 wrote...

He's a moron and a big reason why I sided with the Geth.

Gerrel exemplified everything that was pretty much wrong with the Quarians I thought. Too "war-hungry" and want to destroy the Geth for reasons that are entirely their fault. The Geth consensus mission bolstered my belief that the Geth were innocent and that the Quarians were just stupid.

Doom the entire race for the actions of some of them?

Why aren't you applying this logic to the Geth?  Clearly because the Heretics went over to the Reapers voluntarily without the duress that the Geth had in ME3, all Geth deserve annihilation too?

[Edolix]

BP93 wrote...

He's a moron and a big reason why I sided with the Geth.

Gerrel exemplified everything that was pretty much wrong with the Quarians I thought. Too "war-hungry" and want to destroy the Geth for reasons that are entirely their fault. The Geth consensus mission bolstered my belief that the Geth were innocent and that the Quarians were just stupid.

Sigh. This is exactly the sort of short-sighted stupidity I was referring to earlier. Makes me want to bash my head into a wall.

Modifié par Edolix, 08 juin 2012 - 03:44 .

[Locutus_of_BORG]

Han'Gerrel was better in ME2. He was an ardent military man, but not the hawk he became (or rather, turned out to be) in ME3. His ordering of the renewed assault on the Geth dreadnought while Shep was still onboard and making progress was... not good.

But I think we were all surprised by how badazz awesome Koris turned out to be.


EDIT: Gerrel had little to do with my decision at the end to spare the Quarians/Geth. Granted, I still haven't uploaded my saves that would've allowed me to save both.

Modifié par Locutus_of_BORG, 08 juin 2012 - 03:49 .

[MadCat221]

seireikhaan wrote...

MadCat221 wrote...

He doesn't think. He's a snarling attack dog that doesn't for a moment consider things.

The Geth went to the Reapers specifically because of his warmongering.  We have Gerrel, Xen, and all like-minded quarians to blame for their predicament in the war.

No, the geth went to the reapers because they lack judgment.  They would rather actively help condemn all other species than try to win their own war.  There is *always* a choice, and the geth made an incredibly stupid and/or selfish one.  As for him thinking, I think I explained perfectly well what the quarian rationale for the war was.  They had the best opportunity they've possibly ever had and ever will have to take back their home.  What actual basis exists in *their* lifetimes to suggest peace is not just possible, but likely?  So of course they went to war.  And, as I said, they wanted a base of operations for the reaper invasion.  A place civilians could actually stay, since it isn't as though the council has ever helped them with that.

What evidence? They didn't finish the job. They never instigated anything against the Quarians. The Geth never start fights with the Quarians, but they sure as hell finished them.

So hold on, he's supposed to be happy that only 99% of his ancestors were exterminated?  That's actually supposed to be an argument in favor of recognizing geth mercy and peacefulness?  Good grief.

They'd have plenty of other evidence as well, if they hadn't propagandized out all the geth sympathizers during the Morning War out of their history.

And due to the nature of the Geth... if you've met one non-Hostile geth, you've met them all.

And yay to everyone who punches the reckless idiot. When you're saying "The Geth never wanted to fight you, if you can believe that even for a minute, this war will be over", what you're REALLY saying is "Gerrel, so help me if you do not stand down I will reach through this comm line and gutpunch you again!"

"They" being who, exactly?  There's no evidence Gerrel did anything of the sort- he can only deal with the information at hand.  And try using that geth explanation when every other geth has opened fire on his people in his lifetime.  Again, one platform does not make a rule, even with a collective entity.  His past experience will trump that- see Haestrom as an example of how usual quarian-geth interactions go.  Ask legion itself- the geth have assumed hostilities with quarians as well in every given scenario.  Legion was specifically made for interacting with organics- every other time, the geth themselves have assumed hostility as well.  So frankly, I cannot see for the life of me why Gerrel should trust Shepard's word when everything he knows says otherwise.

The Geth panicked when the Quarians started tearing up their megastructure.  Should every organic that panicks be put to death too?  Why are organics exempt?  That's essentially what panicking is: Making hasty ill-considered decisions in the face of existential threats.

When the Geth just stopped pursuit past Rannoch, that should have raised questions: Why didn't they finish the job?  Instead, the Quarians decided to let the wound fester to the point where Gerrel personifies it.

The Geth stance of "Assume hostility" is a prejudgement.  Guess what?  Organics do that too!  Again, why should it be held particularly against the Geth?  Their primary MO (aside from the Heretics) seems to be "Avoid contact in the first place" anyway.

"Again, one platform does not make a rule, even with a collective entity."

"Collective Entity".  Please re-read that phrase five times.

What if the problem is that everything Gerrel knows is flat out wrong?  Wait... not "what if".  Because it is.  Gerrel refuses to see it unless you browbeat him with it.

Modifié par MadCat221, 08 juin 2012 - 03:52 .

[BatmanPWNS]

I remember back in ME2, everyone was saying his a bit harsh but they were still kissing up to him. Come ME3, almost the whole fanbase hates him.

[seireikhaan]

Madcat, I'm not quite sure you're seeing my point.  (not quoting to avoid trees)

Geth- yes, they panicked. But they also made literally the worst possible choice. Legion explained they already knew that the geth were not in the reaper plans, it was why the geth were going to side against them. So they know that giving control of themselves over to the reapers won't ultimately spare them. All it does is help condemn other species. And, I'm not entirely sure where you're getting that I'm exempting organics. Organics simply never made such a mind-boggling decision on such a large scale.

You're correct that when they ceased pursuit at the end, it would raise questions. But, tell me, if you were one of the 17 million fleeing in desperation, where you're escaping from a place where 99 percent of everyone you knew was exterminated, how high up on the scale is "mercy" going to be on your mind for possible explanations? IMO, it would be pretty much right there at the bottom.

On hostility- again, I'm not sure where you're getting that I'm hating on the geth specifically. I'm pointing out that Gerrel simply has no experience where he encountered geth that didn't immediately shoot at him beyond legion. So, between legion and every single other geth he's encountered, which seems likelier to represent the geth collective?

Lastly, good luck convincing anyone, I mean anyone, that everything they know is wrong. I'd love to try convincing you that two plus two is seven. I don't see how that would be, in any way, a reasonable progression of Gerrel's character to suddenly change his entire character and ignore everything he's learned over the course of his life to follow a coward and some human he barely knows purely on the basis of trust.

Modifié par seireikhaan, 08 juin 2012 - 04:06 .

[Wulfram]

I liked the presentation of Koris and Gerrel over the games. Their characters don't change, our perception of them does because we're seeing them in a different context.

Though I also find it difficult to be as pissed off as Shepard is apparently supposed to be about Gerrel shooting at that Dreadnought. Of course you take the chance to destroy the enemy flagship, even if there are a few of your guys on board. If you'd previously agreed that the fleet would withdraw then you can make some criticisms, but I'd still say he did the right thing.

[Mr. Big Pimpin]

He dragged his people into a war that most of them didn't want (a fact  that anti-quarian people choose to ignore; but listen to that dying guy on the "Rescue Koris" mission and  he tells you that) and nearly got them all killed. Since the entire fleet was forced into the conflict, that meant he was even risking the lives of innocent children. And when you do that, your likability doesn't remain very high.

I guess that makes him not unlike many world leaders we've had through history, but that's hardly a good thing.

Strangely enough though, I love Xen, despite most of those criticisms applying to her as well. I guess I find her crazines endearing, and dem hips and dat voice certainly help as well.

Edolix wrote...

Sigh. This is exactly the sort of short-sighted stupidity I was referring to earlier. Makes me want to bash my head into a wall.

I have that reaction on BSN several dozen times a day.

Modifié par Mr. Big Pimpin, 08 juin 2012 - 05:03 .

[Wulfram]

Mr. Big Pimpin wrote...

He dragged his people into a war that most of them didn't want (a fact  that anti-quarian people choose to ignore; but listen to that dying guy on the "Rescue Koris" mission and  he tells you that) and nearly got them all killed. Since the entire fleet was forced into the conflict, that meant he was even risking the lives of innocent children. And when you do that, your likability doesn't remain very high.

I blame Raan for that more.  She was the swing vote, at least when Tali is an Admiral.

It's a flaw of the Quarian system, anyway.  If you give the military control over that sort of decisions, you can't complain that the civilians didn't agree to it.

[Mr. Big Pimpin]

Wulfram wrote...

I blame Raan for that more.  She was the swing vote, at least when Tali is an Admiral.

I did wish we got to call her out on it too. At least when people start dying she sort of realizes what a mistake she made though, while Gerrel doesn't seem to care at all how many lives he throws away.

Wulfram wrote...

It's a flaw of the Quarian system, anyway.  If you give the military control over that sort of decisions, you can't complain that the civilians didn't agree to it.

That's like saying that medieval peasants have no right to complain about their lot because it's their own fault they live in a monarchy.

Modifié par Mr. Big Pimpin, 08 juin 2012 - 05:28 .

[Tiberis]

No, I do not like Gerrel. I did not like him in ME2 and I disliked him more in ME3. I can understand why some like Gerrel in ME2 because most have come to hate the geth. But I guess I'm a weirdo because I've always felt there was something off about the geth and the constant want to destroy them seemed kind of wrong to me. I love Koris, have since first meeting him in ME2.

If you want a quarian hero, Zaal'Koris is it. The man has advocated for peace and detested the war. Despite this, he fights for his people and sacrifices his ship; almost killing himself in the process. If it wasn't for my Shepard, he would have gladly gave his life so Shepard could rescue his remaining crew. That there is dedication in spite of personal endeavor. He's easily one of my favorite quarians and he deserves more love. He was actually the only thing keeping me from hating the entire race because he represented the largely-ignored side that didn't want to war with the geth anymore which is something I personally disliked in ME2.

[Skullheart]

People only liked him in ME2 because he didn't accuse Tali like Koris, and because he was friend of her father. If you talked with him in ME2 you'll notice that his character didn't change. He always wanted to destroy the geths (tell him about the geth civil conflict and he'll say better for them, less geth to kill).

From all the admirals the only guy I like is Koris, because he is the only one who believed in a peace with the geths. He was the only quarian who was objective about their history. He doesn't see his race as victims, because they started the morning war, not the geth. And, well, he was hated for some people in ME2 because he was against Tali, people failed to know more about his motives.

Anyway, best quarians of the game are Koris and Reegar.

Modifié par Skullheart, 08 juin 2012 - 07:03 .