98 réponses à ce sujet

[Beerfish]

"Then you'd have to figure out how to make MP in DA work- it would likely require substantial changes to the combat (no pause and play) and would require a decent amount of resources. I'd be more in favor of more robust support for the modding community and feature updates to the base game like Bethesda has done with Skyrim."

I thought there would be no way I could play ME multiplayer due to the no pause but I have adapted. I agree about the modding support though for sure.

[Wulfram]

I'd think solid sales and mediocre reviews is a good sign from a business point of view - it shows there's a good amount of demand out there.

Even the extent of hostility towards DA2 for some people is partly a good sign - it shows they care about the franchise. DA3 just needs good word of mouth and it'll sell very well.

[aries1001]

People seem to forgetting that DA2 only needed 18-24 months in development, while DA: Origins neded 5-7 years in development. And might not have been published at all - had EA not bought Bioware. (to phrase it that way). The financial success of DA2 might even be better than DA:O's finacial success because of this.

However, I really believe that the devs. for DA2 has been listening, I really liked Mark of thr Assasin, especially the choce between the stealth and the combat option.

[Allan Schumacher]

I like to think the DLC did a good job of reflecting on some of the bigger criticisms. I actually don't work on the DLC directly (I was working on the expansion pack), but I'm glad you saw it that way.

The only unfortunate thing is that DLC attach rates are smaller than all of the owners of DA2, so not all see it. Have to get it right from the get go for future games.

[ianvillan]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I like to think the DLC did a good job of reflecting on some of the bigger criticisms. I actually don't work on the DLC directly (I was working on the expansion pack), but I'm glad you saw it that way.

The only unfortunate thing is that DLC attach rates are smaller than all of the owners of DA2, so not all see it. Have to get it right from the get go for future games.

I liked the DLC and I know that you couldn't do a major change in a DLC but what you did was a improvement overall.

The stealth system was a good start but still needs alot of work plus the ability to stealth anytime you want not just in certain areas.

[thats1evildude]

I think Kingdoms of Amalur demonstrated what an actual financial failure in the video game industry looks like: the staff all get their notices, they shut off the lights and bar the doors. Since Bioware is still in operation, we can guess that DA2 is not a failure.

[Wulfram]

[cunning]If you put the DLC on sale once in while, maybe more people would buy them? Then they can see how good they are.[/cunning]

[Allan Schumacher]

Hahahahaha.

[ianvillan]

thats1evildude wrote...

I think Kingdoms of Amalur demonstrated what an actual financial failure in the video game industry looks like: the staff all get their notices, they shut off the lights and bar the doors. Since Bioware is still in operation, we can guess that DA2 is not a failure.

DA2 was not a failiure in the financial sense but in the sense that it didn't live up to the legacy of past Bioware games, I think most game developers would be happy with DA2 as a game and how it faired financially.

Bioware has spoken about some of the main failures of the game and that they plan to change them, its just a matter of convincing them that there are other big problems and what we would like them to be changed to.

[Persephone]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I like to think the DLC did a good job of reflecting on some of the bigger criticisms. I actually don't work on the DLC directly (I was working on the expansion pack), but I'm glad you saw it that way.

The only unfortunate thing is that DLC attach rates are smaller than all of the owners of DA2, so not all see it. Have to get it right from the get go for future games.

*Sighs* The expansion....

Just reminds me of how my poor Lady Hawke will be in limbo forever now.

Unless DAIII somehow provides closure without her as the PC. Which is unlikely.

I'd so love to see that expansion....:crying:

[wsandista]

Wulfram wrote...

[cunning]If you put the DLC on sale once in while, maybe more people would buy them? Then they can see how good they are.[/cunning]

Absolutely. 15 dolllars for 3-4 hours of content is a little steep for me.

[Das Tentakel]

wsandista wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

[cunning]If you put the DLC on sale once in while, maybe more people would buy them? Then they can see how good they are.[/cunning]

Absolutely. 15 dolllars for 3-4 hours of content is a little steep for me.

Not to mention the fact that the DLC wasn't all that well regarded, at least not universally.
Academic anyway, I'm not going to touch Origin again, not even with a ten-foot barge pole.

[dheer]

Wulfram wrote...
[cunning]If you put the DLC on sale once in while, maybe more people would buy them? Then they can see how good they are.[/cunning]

Agreed. Roughly $26 for the major dlcs seems a hefty price for a year old game that can be bought at amazon for 8 bucks. It's too bad there's no all in one DA2 deal as well.

[Jerrybnsn]

Exactly what did the Legacy dlc do to reflect some of the changes that they plan to install in DA3? I don't think I saw any exploding bodies or spaming enemies. And it didn't re-use any maps, but then again it was just one long map to begin with. Other than that, everything look like DAII with unrealistic combat and huge weapons (Hawke's Key made me roll my eyes).  Still couldn't outfit your companions or engage with them in conversation.

Could you imagine the people that complained at how long the Deep Roads or The Fade quests were in Origins would have acted if Legacy was actually part of DA2? They would have said that was their least favorite part of the game for the same reason.

Modifié par Jerrybnsn, 12 juin 2012 - 11:18 .

[AlexanderCousland]

I like both games. And I am most certainly hoping for more games beyond DA3. Although I am concerned about the Lack of the Warden's impact on the world or "illusion" as Gaider so eloquently likes to put it. The Warde is above all the character who makes the fans feel like "US". I am concerned that The Warden is going to be railroaded into npc's mentioning him/her ocasionally like bohdan "In fact, i just come from traveling with the Hero of Fereldan" Surely the Vanquisher of the Blight deserves a more profound Impact on the world then the ocassional one-liner. And if not him/her surely one of their offspring.

[mr_luga]

I know it sounds like a dick thing to say. but I do hope DA3 goes to **** financially if it turns into more of DA2. Before you go "omg you just want bad things for bioware" they themselves have said to vote with the money, if the sales tank, that is a pretty strong vote that they need to stop being derp, and listen to what people are saying

[ElitePinecone]

Allan Schumacher wrote...
 (I was working on the expansion pack),

So was Exalted March a full expansion pack, or just particularly large DLC?

Did you intend it to be for DA2 owners, or as more of a standalone thing? 

[Das Tentakel]

Brockololly wrote...

Das Tentakel wrote...
Whether the disappointment with DA2 among a vocal group of players and some reviewers is going to have a negative impact on the sales of the next game is something we will have to see. The magic of the Bioware brand and EA’s PR machine can go far, but there are limits.

Exactly. If DA2 was some resounding commercial success, I don't think it would have only managed 2 DLCs. The expansion pack probably wouldn't have been cancelled. Its easy to dismiss the critics of the game as a "vocal minority" but at the end of the day it'll come down to whether its profitable. 

It’s not just a question of profitability, it’s a question of financial projections. EA sets the financial goals. If BioWare does not reach these financial goals, somebody has to go to EA HQ and explain. This is something they will want to avoid, so things that might be profitable (DA2 DLC and expansions?) but not contribute enough towards reaching those goals will be ditched for something that they hope can.

BioWare, if I can believe this article ( www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2012-06-07-bioware-we-havent-had-a-breakthrough-success  ), appears to have a good deal of autonomy provided they reach financial goals. My own experience with a somewhat analogous situation is this: If a formerly independent, and now merely ‘autonomous’ company is profitable, and even better than market conditions warrant, but falls short of those goals there is already a risk of intervention by higher-ups. If higher-up they worry about the ability or reliability of the subsidiary company’s leadership, there will be intervention. If the market starts murmuring, there is risk of intervention. And it will happen, and it will demoralise, and there is a risk of a downward spiral within the subsidiary company. The autonomy goes out of the window very quickly.

I think BioWare’s leaders are capable enough, and pragmatic enough, to prevent this, but it also means, I suspect, that projects that might be profitable enough will be ditched in favour of those that promise reaching or surpassing the financial goals set by EA. Moreover, there is likely to be feedback from above that they will have to take into consideration, nudging them towards financially safer projects. And currently ‘safer projects’ means lots of action and cinematics combined with huge PR expenditures. Under ideal circumstances RPG’s (DA:O, Skyrim, possibly The Witcher II if it had been published cross-platform from the start) can match blockbuster games. However, I am wondering whether RPG’s aren’t just harder to develop than RPG-y action games mixed with cinematics and trickier to ‘get right’ (in terms of design, timing and PR), meaning that it’s waaaaaay easier and safer to produce, say, ‘Uncharted Dragon’.

Brockololly wrote...

DA3's reception will likely lie in simply how the game looks first and foremost. Assuming its not coming out until later next year, thats more than likely running up against new consoles. That'll be running games that look like Star Wars 1313 or UE4 games possibly. Impressive visuals is the easiest way to get a more mainstream audience paying attention. If it still looks like DA2, that will shut people off right away.

I don’t think disappointing graphics will keep away the RPG fans. Frankly, much of DA:O looked pretty crappy back in 2009, yet this did not prevent it being very successful in terms of sales.
Heck, Dragon Age II looks really bad compared to The Witcher II, yet it sold more copies (though I suspect The Witcher II will sell more in the long run).

It WILL, however, prevent it from breaking through to a wider group of players, the kind of people who buy games based on graphics and might or might not discover that they like RPG’s. Visual design (rather than graphical fidelity) is also rather important, but this is also something which isn’t always BioWare’s strong point. At least not in 3D fantasy games…

Brockololly wrote...
And considering how some people felt alienated by DA2 and it subsequently suffered poor word of mouth, plus the ME3 ending debacle and TOR's continued struggles, and I don't think BioWare overall has a very favorable image right now. Thats speaking nothing of EA related stuff like Origin.

I’ve noticed that independent reviewers / observers (the better informed and written blogs, some mainstream publication journalists like Erik Kain) and certain European gaming sites have been usually more objective / fairly critical when it comes to games and developments in the videogame industry.
I sort of fell of my chair when I heard one prominent German videogame journalist (probably tired after E3 and hence at risk for making unprofessional remarks) use the words beschissen and abkacken referring to BioWare and its recent games (this was in the context of EA’s E3 press conference).
That is not a good sign, and while it’s probably just his personal opinion, I get the impression it sort of reflects a wider sentiment, not just among disappointed BioWare ‘traditionalist’ fans.

Brockololly wrote...
Its like TV episode ratings- you're always going to see a lag in ratings. If episode 5 was an awesome episode that generated lots of positive buzz, you can expect episode 6 to probably get higher ratings. Thats speaking nothing of the quality of episode 6 however, and if episode 6 is mediocre, then you can expect episode 7 to suffer for it, regardless of episode 7's actual quality.

BioWare is a strong brand, though. At least among RPG players (with the exception of some cantankerous crusty old relics from the heyday of Pong and Zork at RPG Codex).
Like Star Trek, I think it will take more than just two ‘disappointments’ (rather than commercial failures) to have a lasting effect. It does give BioWare some (but not limitless) room to either improve or to reinvent itself as a good but more mainstream action game studio (with games heavy on cinematics, strong characterization and linear storytelling).

Modifié par Das Tentakel, 13 juin 2012 - 08:43 .

[schalafi]

Das Tentakel wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

…If it does worse than DA2 I can see them pulling the plug because it means that people don't care about the franchise anymore in general.

Honestly, I have a hard time believing that people outside the relatively small circle of people posting on forums and diehard Bioware fans really care much about the franchise.
The Dragon Age IP has a long way to go before it, by itself, will be able to sell games the way Warcraft and Diablo, or for that matter The Elder Scrolls, do.
And it’s not as if it is a particularly rich or compelling IP. It has some good stuff in it, but it also suffers from a painfully generic setting, lacks an iconic central character (Geralt, Kratos, Lara Croft) and has no ties with an established and famous IP outside the videogame world (Lord of the Rings, Game of Thrones, The Forgotten Realms, Conan, Dune, Star Trek etc.).

Apart from the quality of the games themselves and word-of-mouth, I think that the reputation and credibility of Bioware as a brand is far more important here. And that’s been, well, erm, a bit tarnished lately. Not irreparably damaged, but I am not sure it can afford too many, ahem, ‘controversies’.

Personally, I am not invested in Dragon Age (DA:O good but not great, DA2 painful mixed with some good, setting in general rather meh but with some good bits), but I AM invested in Bioware as a RPG developer. It’s far more important to me that they continue to produce good RPG’s (fantasy and SF) than that Dragon Age survives.

Should Bioware suddenly get its hands on the GoT franchise or return to The Forgotten Realms and ditch Dragon Age, I will neither mourn nor celebrate Thedas’ demise.

I have to protest about your desire for an "iconic central character" in Bioware rpgs. There are plenty of games with one central character, but not too many with the ability to make a choice on gender, appearance, fighting techniques, great story and dialogue, plus interaction  with npcs and the world in general. I would hate to see that ability taken away. Which is, imo, just what an iconic central character does. And yes, I care about the franchise.

Modifié par schalafi, 13 juin 2012 - 07:25 .

[Das Tentakel]

schalafi wrote...

Das Tentakel wrote...

snippity-snap

I have to protest about your desire for an "iconic central character" in Bioware rpgs. There are plenty of games with one central character, but not too many with the ability to make a choice on gender, appearance, fighting techniques, great story and dialogue, plus interaction  with npcs and the world in general. I would hate to see that ability taken away. Which is, imo, just what an iconic central character does. And yes, I care about the franchise.

Who says I desire iconic characters? I think it helps establishing / selling an IP, but it's not necessarily what I personally like or prefer. Like you, I prefer making my own character.
As for caring about the franchise, good for you. I personally rarely care about videogame IP's, but I do care about studios that tend to make games I like.

[Shazzie]

In direct answer to the OP's question ("Will DA3 be the last?"), with regards to the fact that I haven't read the rest of the thread:

I hope not. While I did not enjoy DA2 nearly as much as DA:O, I'm hopeful that they pull me back in with DA3. If they do put out a game that I find as enjoyable as the first, then I hope they continue on for a very long time.

I don't see why the Dragon Age games can't turn into something similar to, say, The Elder Scrolls (TSO). Each game in TSO is not exactly part of a series, though they build on the same lore and background story. With Dragon Age, our characters would be even more invested in the world, particularly if our choices in previous games continue to have an effect on new games. Even if BioWare only acknowledges a few of our major choices going forward, it still means that it's OUR story and the game continues to build on OUR story. TSO only pulls blanket details of previous games, but DA can be far more explicit.

I only hope that future DA games don't continue with the 'and then the protagonist disappeared and was never seen again'. I wouldn't mind hearing simple little things about my Warden (maybe she and Alistair were recently at some big fancy event, or that she just called a meeting of Wardens together, or something), or perhaps there is a rumor that Hawke (and her love interest) were recently seen somewhere. Nothing in-depth, just something one of the barkeeps might mention in their rumor list, or a background conversation you overhear while going through town. But since Hawke and Warden have vanished, that won't ever happen. Please don't do that to all future protagonists. I can sort of understand it's done because we no longer control these characters, but I'm sure they can still be mentioned in ways that don't feel like control was utterly ripped from our grasp.

Modifié par Shazzie, 14 juin 2012 - 01:07 .

[Withidread]

ianvillan wrote...

DA2 was not a failiure in the financial sense but in the sense that it didn't live up to the legacy of past Bioware games, I think most game developers would be happy with DA2 as a game and how it faired financially.

Bioware has spoken about some of the main failures of the game and that they plan to change them, its just a matter of convincing them that there are other big problems and what we would like them to be changed to.

Whether or not DA2 lived up to the legacy of past Bioware games is very much a matter of opinion. There are things I'd rather they did differently. But you know, I recall when I first picked up each title in the BG series, and there were things even then that I wished they'd done differently. Yet here we are, and I doubt there's much dispute that the BG series (and its derivitaves, I'm looking at you IWD) is a huge part of the Bioware legacy.

Just because there are things you'd change about a game, that doesn't mean it's a failure. Nor does it mean it isn't living up Bioware's legacy.

[schalafi]

Shazzie wrote...

In direct answer to the OP's question ("Will DA3 be the last?"), with regards to the fact that I haven't read the rest of the thread:

I hope not. While I did not enjoy DA2 nearly as much as DA:O, I'm hopeful that they pull me back in with DA3. If they do put out a game that I find as enjoyable as the first, then I hope they continue on for a very long time.

I don't see why the Dragon Age games can't turn into something similar to, say, The Elder Scrolls (TSO). Each game in TSO is not exactly part of a series, though they build on the same lore and background story. With Dragon Age, our characters would be even more invested in the world, particularly if our choices in previous games continue to have an effect on new games. Even if BioWare only acknowledges a few of our major choices going forward, it still means that it's OUR story and the game continues to build on OUR story. TSO only pulls blanket details of previous games, but DA can be far more explicit.

I only hope that future DA games don't continue with the 'and then the protagonist disappeared and was never seen again'. I wouldn't mind hearing simple little things about my Warden (maybe she and Alistair were recently at some big fancy event, or that she just called a meeting of Wardens together, or something), or perhaps there is a rumor that Hawke (and her love interest) were recently seen somewhere. Nothing in-depth, just something one of the barkeeps might mention in their rumor list, or a background conversation you overhear while going through town. But since Hawke and Warden have vanished, that won't ever happen. Please don't do that to all future protagonists. I can sort of understand it's done because we no longer control these characters, but I'm sure they can still be mentioned in ways that don't feel like control was utterly ripped from our grasp.

If they (Bioware) can bring back Alistair, when he died in some people's game, and Zevron, who some players killed, I guess they can bring back just about anyone from a previous game. I'm not worried that we've seen the last of some of the characters, although I don't know how thats going to work, but I'm sure we'll be seeing some of them again, maybe just for a quick cameo appearance, or maybe for a larger role.

I like the idea of having new places and new characters in each game, but I hope they keep bringing some of my favorate characters back in some way. I'm not sure just who they will be, but there have been some In game hints about some of them, Bodahn and Sandal for example.

Modifié par schalafi, 14 juin 2012 - 05:12 .

[bEVEsthda]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I like to think the DLC did a good job of reflecting on some of the bigger criticisms. I actually don't work on the DLC directly (I was working on the expansion pack), but I'm glad you saw it that way.

The only unfortunate thing is that DLC attach rates are smaller than all of the owners of DA2, so not all see it. Have to get it right from the get go for future games.

The reason I didn't buy a single dlc for DA2 was, as I've stated before, that I didn't want to show support for DA2, or DA2's "new direction". The only true vote we have is our wallet, isn't it?

Otherwise, I'm happy to buy dlc and I purchased everything for DA:O.

So naturally, I don't really know  anything, just have some notion about legacy, from developer talks, trailers, Youtube videos. But that notion is kinda more that it reflects the weaknesses that Bioware immediately said they recognized, as well as those things which people, who liked DA2, would also criticize. In terms of reflecting the criticism from specifically all those who disliked  DA2, I haven't seen or heard much from Bioware yet. The best we have are statements committing to more player char agency, plus that it has been mentioned that the dialogue wheel will be tweaked. Tweaked, mind you, not abolished.

I of course understand that the dlc were based on DA2, and for that reason cannot become something completely different. I also sort of at bottom really trust that a number of things will get modified, like combat, mood and art. I'm bl**y well not going to be negative in advance about DA3.
 
But ultimately, no - I don't think we've really seen or heard anything from Bioware that reflects the criticism from those who disliked DA2. Yet. We're still waiting. They'll show us they say, when they have something to show. One has to take that as reasonable. For a good while.