233 réponses à ce sujet

[LiarasShield]

xsdob wrote...

LiarasShield wrote...

xsdob wrote...

I don't really see the point in it lying to me, it could have just left me at the control panel to die, or not show itself when the elevator came up, or even just not told me I had no options to pick from.

Why bring me up there and talk to me and attempt to discuss itself with me just to play some elaborate trick with no payoff for anyone involved. The reapers still lose, shepard still stops them, and even if I picked control all of you posting how the catalyst is a liar still picked destory and killed the reapers.

Where's this trick?

All your forces are nearly trapt in devastated solar system or the reapers live to possibly harvest your now stranded forces and their many reasons he could be lieing just his forces in the background still killing yours his false premise of saving us from synthetics but then using the geth with their reaper code to kill us instead of shutting them down or instead of using the reapers which are synthetic to destroy the other synthetics they are only destroying us instead of supposedly saving us

That sounds more like paranoia than actual reasoning. With that logic why even trust liara, shes and alien maybe she trapped you in a mind control dream world back in mass effect 1 you'd neven know. Or the beacons, maybe shepard is in a drug induced coma at the local psych ward due to the beacon scrambling his brain and all this is an illusion could be. Or this is all the dream of a butterfly who passed a cloud of marajuana smoke and is looking at a tv screen of the scyfy channel cannot be disproven or proven.

Come on now i really believed you definitly was a reasonable person but all the issues from him claiming to save us from synthetics to his reapers still killing my forces in the background and controling the reapers to commit mass genocide in the first place really how can their be a were gonna talk this out with this being?

[LiarasShield]

And just using paranoia as justification for what you just said seems like a attempt to get me to rage at you or cuss you out but I'm not going to because I'm going to try to be civil about this thing

Modifié par LiarasShield, 08 juin 2012 - 05:12 .

[KingZayd]

Taboo-XX wrote...

xsdob wrote...

I don't really see the point in it lying to me, it could have just left me at the control panel to die, or not show itself when the elevator came up, or even just not told me I had any options to pick from.

Why bring me up there and talk to me and attempt to discuss itself with me just to play some elaborate trick with no payoff for anyone involved. The reapers still lose, shepard still stops them, and even if I picked control all of you posting how the catalyst is a liar still picked destory and killed the reapers.

Where's this trick?

indoctrination. or alternatively, getting you to kill yourself and/or sabotage the crucible.

Here's a lie: 
"You have hope. More than you think. The fact that you're standing here, the first organic ever proves it. But it also proves my solution won't work any more"

We're only standing there because the Starchild brought us up here. Are we supposed to believe the Starchild is sabotaging its own solution?

[WhiteKnyght]

LiarasShield wrote...

xsdob wrote...

I don't really see the point in it lying to me, it could have just left me at the control panel to die, or not show itself when the elevator came up, or even just not told me I had no options to pick from.

Why bring me up there and talk to me and attempt to discuss itself with me just to play some elaborate trick with no payoff for anyone involved. The reapers still lose, shepard still stops them, and even if I picked control all of you posting how the catalyst is a liar still picked destory and killed the reapers.

Where's this trick?

All your forces are nearly trapt in devastated solar system or the reapers live to possibly harvest your now stranded forces and their many reasons he could be lieing just his forces in the background still killing yours his false premise of saving us from synthetics but then using the geth with their reaper code to kill us instead of shutting them down or instead of using the reapers which are synthetic to destroy the other synthetics they are only destroying us instead of supposedly saving us

Untrue.

Patrick Weeke's clarified that FTL ships are fast enough to travel through the galaxy without the Mass Relays. They're just more convenient. He also mentioned that because of the mass relays, there was never a need to improve FTL, which can be done by reverse engineering parts from the reapers(just like Sovereign's main gun became the Thanix Cannon.)

Plus the Reapers built the mass relays. If you take control of them, Shepard could just order then to rebuild the relays.

If you do synthesis, every being is uplifted to the peak of intelligence and progress. Rebuilding the relays with or without the Reapers would arguably be simple. Hell, maybe they could even build portable relays into ships so they just zip across the galaxy instantly.

[xsdob]

His logic is faulty, but now he has more clarity and understanding thanks to the crucible and shepard. His choices are all solutions that work, just in different ways. If you feel the reapers deserve nothing but wrath than you can picked destroy and kill them all. If you feel like the reapers were just misguided and can be set on a better path than pick control. If you feel the reapers may have some right ideas but are using the worst way possible to doing it than pick synthesis.

There isn't a trick, the crucible was tapping into the relays power network and the citadel in order to generate the colored blast, that is why the relays stop working. He was the villian because his logic and methods were wrong, he became something else when the crucible forced him to admit his error.

That's how I see it, you can go ahead and continue yelling no, no, no, all you want. You still beast him, he and the reapers died with destroy, they are gone forever.

[OdanUrr]

KingZayd wrote...

We're only standing there because the Starchild brought us up here. Are we supposed to believe the Starchild is sabotaging its own solution?

I'm looking forward to Bioware explaining this.

[The Angry One]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Wrong. The devil always double crosses you. With the Catalyst, every choice works just like he says, there's no deception.

Prove it.

The Catalyst simply explained all the possibilities Shepard had in hand(he would have had to do these things anyway, otherwise the Crucible wouldn't fire) and gave his personal opinion on each of them. He never pressures you one way or another. In fact, in a low EMS, his reaction to Shepard is totally different. He's more like "You bring this on yourselves. " and "find another solution. But I cant make them happen, and I wont." So he's basically saying screw you and you wont get any help from him when you DO make your choice,

Yes, with low EMS it's frustrated with you for not doing it's work for it, the lazy little bastard.

Also if you're going to get Biblical, the devil is more about wanting to rule over everything, not blindly destroying it. Cleansing the galaxy through destruction is more or less something that God would do, given the Great Flood as an example

The Catalyst rules with the cycle, it is it's form of control. So are the 3 choices, all follow it's agenda and leave it's mark over the galaxy. The Catalyst is in full control, Shepard is merely a pawn.

[xsdob]

KingZayd wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

xsdob wrote...

I don't really see the point in it lying to me, it could have just left me at the control panel to die, or not show itself when the elevator came up, or even just not told me I had any options to pick from.

Why bring me up there and talk to me and attempt to discuss itself with me just to play some elaborate trick with no payoff for anyone involved. The reapers still lose, shepard still stops them, and even if I picked control all of you posting how the catalyst is a liar still picked destory and killed the reapers.

Where's this trick?

indoctrination. or alternatively, getting you to kill yourself and/or sabotage the crucible.

Here's a lie: 
"You have hope. More than you think. The fact that you're standing here, the first organic ever proves it. But it also proves my solution won't work any more"

We're only standing there because the Starchild brought us up here. Are we supposed to believe the Starchild is sabotaging its own solution?

You docked the crucible and made it see the error of it's solution, like a reprograming. Probably cut off it's connection to the reapers as well.

That's my intrpretation of it, the crucible was desinged to sever the catalyst connection and give the organics control instead. That's why with a low EMS the catalyst is much more hostile in dialouge than with a high EMS, it's how successful the crucible is in making the catalyst listen to you and the success of your choices.

[LiarasShield]

I've really already explained how it could still be all a trick or trap on the catalyst end


Vigil from Ilos has already said that the reapers turn off the mass relays so that they could have a easyer time harvesting organics so if relays go boom and the reapers live it would still make it easyer for the reapers to harvest organics

the reapers are using the geth against us instead of shutting them down or destroying them they're not protecting us from synthetics but killing us with them even if the reaper has organics minds or dna floating within it it is still a super advanced organic synthetic and they're still using synthetics to only kill organics instead of supposedly saving us from them

And just the fact that I can see his reapers still killing my forces while I talk to him or make the three forced decisions he decides are best for me it just really doesn't fly

[SubAstris]

LiarasShield wrote...

The Catalyst says that he is supposedly protecting us from synthetics yet they use the reaper code to take control over the geth to kill us instead of not simply shutting the geth down and if they're trying to save us why keep using the reapers who are essentially organic synthetics beings to keep killing us all the time if they're ment to save us from synthetics wouldn't make more sense to destroy the synthetics or to give organics warning of the danger of synthetics instead of constantly destroying them that isn't saving anybody


S

1) The Catalyst would justify his actions by saying he needs the Geth to kill organics so that said organics (in this instance, Shepard & co) do not interrupt Reaper plans. It never said anything about saving ALL organics everywhere, as if that was feasible anywhere.

2) Destroying synthetics would be less efficient as organics could just make a whole bunch of other synthetics. The fact is the root cause of the problem is organics, by removing advanced forms of them, advanced synthetics cannot be created which would endanger all life.

Giving sufficient warning could be an interesting solution. However, it is likely that, owing to human nature, that synthetics would be created regardless. The current solution requires less interference than the option you proposed (overall)

[The Angry One]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Untrue.

Patrick Weeke's clarified that FTL ships are fast enough to travel through the galaxy without the Mass Relays.

Absurd.

They're just more convenient. He also mentioned that because of the mass relays, there was never a need to improve FTL, which can be done by reverse engineering parts from the reapers(just like Sovereign's main gun became the Thanix Cannon.)

Which is why the Reapers are only little more than double the speed of Citadel ships after billions of years.
I will remind you yet again that Weekes also stated that the speed of 12 ly/day for Citadel ships is not stated in-game, when it is in the codex.

Weekes is a good writer, but he does not know the specifics of ME FTL, nor does he know much of the ending which is unsurprising as he didn't write it and wasn't consulted on it but of course Walters leaves him to try and explain it.

Plus the Reapers built the mass relays. If you take control of them, Shepard could just order then to rebuild the relays.

Lot of ifs and buts there.

If you do synthesis, every being is uplifted to the peak of intelligence and progress. Rebuilding the relays with or without the Reapers would arguably be simple. Hell, maybe they could even build portable relays into ships so they just zip across the galaxy instantly.

Speculations! Why not just say everybody gets built in hyperdrives. It's about as likely.

[WhiteKnyght]

LiarasShield wrote...

And just using paranoia as justification for what you just said seems like a attempt to get me to rage at you or cuss you out but I'm not going to because I'm going to try to be civil about this thing

The fact that you're getting angry now proves that he's right.

Not trusting the Catalyst amounts to little more than prejudice against the Reapers and paranoia of the conseqences.

What we DO know, is that in all of the Reaper's statements since ME1, they've spoken truthfully, albeit talking about our destruction.

And we DO know that if we don't do something, everybody is going to die anyway!

Even if the fleets did get stranded and starve, everybody went into that mission prepared to die if necessary. What's important is that the hundreds of other worlds that are being besieged can now recover.

[LiarasShield]

and also on pure principle why would I ever believe the enemy that is controling my enemy who has destroyed zillions of worlds and mostly my own home planet>

[SubAstris]

KingZayd wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

xsdob wrote...

I don't really see the point in it lying to me, it could have just left me at the control panel to die, or not show itself when the elevator came up, or even just not told me I had any options to pick from.

Why bring me up there and talk to me and attempt to discuss itself with me just to play some elaborate trick with no payoff for anyone involved. The reapers still lose, shepard still stops them, and even if I picked control all of you posting how the catalyst is a liar still picked destory and killed the reapers.

Where's this trick?

indoctrination. or alternatively, getting you to kill yourself and/or sabotage the crucible.

Here's a lie: 
"You have hope. More than you think. The fact that you're standing here, the first organic ever proves it. But it also proves my solution won't work any more"

We're only standing there because the Starchild brought us up here. Are we supposed to believe the Starchild is sabotaging its own solution?

It is not necessarily a lie. It is possible that the Catalyst sensed Shepard's presence and realised that organic life had come to the stage where they could destroy the Reapers. Acknowledging the need of a new solution as a result, it brings Shepard up to choose the fate of the universe

[Shallyah]

The worst of all is that whether you ttrust him or not, he's wrong in half the things you're forced to take as the universal truth. It's ridiculous that Shepard has to either kill a race of allies, rape everyone's DNA forcefully, or play god enslaving a race made of millions of races.All without a single attempt to argue or question this stupid Catalyst creature.

That's not the Shepard I knew during all three games and over 400 hours of gameplay.

[LiarasShield]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

LiarasShield wrote...

And just using paranoia as justification for what you just said seems like a attempt to get me to rage at you or cuss you out but I'm not going to because I'm going to try to be civil about this thing

The fact that you're getting angry now proves that he's right.

Not trusting the Catalyst amounts to little more than prejudice against the Reapers and paranoia of the conseqences.

What we DO know, is that in all of the Reaper's statements since ME1, they've spoken truthfully, albeit talking about our destruction.

And we DO know that if we don't do something, everybody is going to die anyway!

Even if the fleets did get stranded and starve, everybody went into that mission prepared to die if necessary. What's important is that the hundreds of other worlds that are being besieged can now recover.

No I'm angry at the simple fact is that hes been controling the reapers to destroy most of the galaxy and our world a lot of the stuff he is proclaming to either be so or the reapers purpose makes no sense and why would I follow his three forced railroaded decisions when he either made the reapers or controls them and I can still see his forces slaughtering mine in the background I personally don't believe in submission

[dreman9999]

Alien1099 wrote...

Because the writers force you to.

No they don't. That up to you. They force you to pick but not beleive him.

[wright1978]

The Angry One wrote...

You can't, and any cooperation with this monster without even challenging it's assertions is total capitulation.

That's how you ended Shepard's story, BioWare. By turning Shepard into a cowardly traitor who surrendered to the Reapers.
For all your biblical, religious messianic allegory, you also forgot the ultimate irony: Shepard gave into the devil's temptation.

Yeah becoming the passive dogsbody of an evil genocidal space midget is so what Shep is all about!

[KingZayd]

xsdob wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

xsdob wrote...

I don't really see the point in it lying to me, it could have just left me at the control panel to die, or not show itself when the elevator came up, or even just not told me I had any options to pick from.

Why bring me up there and talk to me and attempt to discuss itself with me just to play some elaborate trick with no payoff for anyone involved. The reapers still lose, shepard still stops them, and even if I picked control all of you posting how the catalyst is a liar still picked destory and killed the reapers.

Where's this trick?

indoctrination. or alternatively, getting you to kill yourself and/or sabotage the crucible.

Here's a lie: 
"You have hope. More than you think. The fact that you're standing here, the first organic ever proves it. But it also proves my solution won't work any more"

We're only standing there because the Starchild brought us up here. Are we supposed to believe the Starchild is sabotaging its own solution?

You docked the crucible and made it see the error of it's solution, like a reprograming. Probably cut off it's connection to the reapers as well.

That's my intrpretation of it, the crucible was desinged to sever the catalyst connection and give the organics control instead. That's why with a low EMS the catalyst is much more hostile in dialouge than with a high EMS, it's how successful the crucible is in making the catalyst listen to you and the success of your choices.

Really? how did we make it see the error of its solution?

How did the designers of the crucible know that the Starchild was there, and that the device would have to interface with it? No other organics had been there, and most pro-Starchilders out there say that it's been dormant all this time til you connected the crucible (to explain the fact it's done nothing throughout ME1 and before that when the Protheans sabotaged the Citadel)

[LiarasShield]

why would you trust the enemy who has been killing or could possibly only tell you things to mislead or take on a form to make you trust him or believe him but that is still hard to do with knowledge of that his reapers have destroyed pretty much the entire galaxy and most of our earth and then his reapers killing my soldiers in the background their is no way I could possibly trust him

[Vigilant111]

Catalyst is NOT the reaper creator, as I believe the reapers were created by organics which long perished due to reaper rebellion

[dreman9999]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

LiarasShield wrote...

xsdob wrote...

I don't really see the point in it lying to me, it could have just left me at the control panel to die, or not show itself when the elevator came up, or even just not told me I had no options to pick from.

Why bring me up there and talk to me and attempt to discuss itself with me just to play some elaborate trick with no payoff for anyone involved. The reapers still lose, shepard still stops them, and even if I picked control all of you posting how the catalyst is a liar still picked destory and killed the reapers.

Where's this trick?

All your forces are nearly trapt in devastated solar system or the reapers live to possibly harvest your now stranded forces and their many reasons he could be lieing just his forces in the background still killing yours his false premise of saving us from synthetics but then using the geth with their reaper code to kill us instead of shutting them down or instead of using the reapers which are synthetic to destroy the other synthetics they are only destroying us instead of supposedly saving us

Untrue.

Patrick Weeke's clarified that FTL ships are fast enough to travel through the galaxy without the Mass Relays. They're just more convenient. He also mentioned that because of the mass relays, there was never a need to improve FTL, which can be done by reverse engineering parts from the reapers(just like Sovereign's main gun became the Thanix Cannon.)

Plus the Reapers built the mass relays. If you take control of them, Shepard could just order then to rebuild the relays.

If you do synthesis, every being is uplifted to the peak of intelligence and progress. Rebuilding the relays with or without the Reapers would arguably be simple. Hell, maybe they could even build portable relays into ships so they just zip across the galaxy instantly.

1.With synthesis you completly missed the promblem with it... Only the star child knows how to do it and using that allown does not solve it.....Also, the reapershave a history of controling organic with implants....You're letting him implant all organics in synthesis.

2. What does"You will die. You will control us and lose everything you have" mean?

[WhiteKnyght]

The Angry One wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Untrue.

Patrick Weeke's clarified that FTL ships are fast enough to travel through the galaxy without the Mass Relays.

Absurd.

They're just more convenient. He also mentioned that because of the mass relays, there was never a need to improve FTL, which can be done by reverse engineering parts from the reapers(just like Sovereign's main gun became the Thanix Cannon.)

Which is why the Reapers are only little more than double the speed of Citadel ships after billions of years.
I will remind you yet again that Weekes also stated that the speed of 12 ly/day for Citadel ships is not stated in-game, when it is in the codex.

Weekes is a good writer, but he does not know the specifics of ME FTL, nor does he know much of the ending which is unsurprising as he didn't write it and wasn't consulted on it but of course Walters leaves him to try and explain it.

Plus the Reapers built the mass relays. If you take control of them, Shepard could just order then to rebuild the relays.

Lot of ifs and buts there.

If you do synthesis, every being is uplifted to the peak of intelligence and progress. Rebuilding the relays with or without the Reapers would arguably be simple. Hell, maybe they could even build portable relays into ships so they just zip across the galaxy instantly.

Speculations! Why not just say everybody gets built in hyperdrives. It's about as likely.

1. Presuming that you know more about FTL and Mass Relays than one of the guys who writes the stuff is arrogant and foolish. Being an ME writer, Weekes knows EVERYTHING we don't know.

2. You forget that the Reapers believe they are perfect. They believe to have no need to improve themselves. Plus they always jump into the galaxy at a specific point of development and shut down the Mass Relays to ensure their victory. As Weeke's said. This cycle was anomalous.

Also Weeke's said that it's 16 lightyears per day, at cruising speeds, not top speed. Top speeds would be much faster.

3. Ifs and buts aside, the poin of Control is to make them do what YOU want. It's well within the Reaper's ability to make Mass Relays, so if you give the order, they would be able to do it.

4. Common sense: Devs wouldn't have bothered to add a third choice and have it be portrayed as a good option if there were nothing to it.

[dreman9999]

Vigilant111 wrote...

Catalyst is NOT the reaper creator, as I believe the reapers were created by organics which long perished due to reaper rebellion

It matter not...The Catalyst is still in control.