233 réponses à ce sujet

[dreman9999]

Opsrbest wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Alien1099 wrote...

Because the writers force you to.

No they don't. That up to you. They force you to pick but not beleive him.

That does pose an interesting ending option that wasn't preasented. If you didn't belive or trust the Catalyst, why no indecision ending where the Reapers would win? 

How do you know what you saw was real?

[Vigilant111]

dreman9999 wrote...

Vigilant111 wrote...

Catalyst is NOT the reaper creator, as I believe the reapers were created by organics which long perished due to reaper rebellion

It matter not...The Catalyst is still in control.

No argument here

see the reapers have a hard time admitting that they are part of the chaos, and THEY are the exact obstacle that organics must over come

[LiarasShield]

Vigilant111 wrote...

Catalyst is NOT the reaper creator, as I believe the reapers were created by organics which long perished due to reaper rebellion

The Catalyst

( The Reapers Our My Solution I control them)


Even if he didn't make them he controls them to destroy the entire galaxy and us and is using the very synthetics he swore to protect us from to kill us

[dreman9999]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Untrue.

Patrick Weeke's clarified that FTL ships are fast enough to travel through the galaxy without the Mass Relays.

Absurd.

They're just more convenient. He also mentioned that because of the mass relays, there was never a need to improve FTL, which can be done by reverse engineering parts from the reapers(just like Sovereign's main gun became the Thanix Cannon.)

Which is why the Reapers are only little more than double the speed of Citadel ships after billions of years.
I will remind you yet again that Weekes also stated that the speed of 12 ly/day for Citadel ships is not stated in-game, when it is in the codex.

Weekes is a good writer, but he does not know the specifics of ME FTL, nor does he know much of the ending which is unsurprising as he didn't write it and wasn't consulted on it but of course Walters leaves him to try and explain it.

Plus the Reapers built the mass relays. If you take control of them, Shepard could just order then to rebuild the relays.

Lot of ifs and buts there.

If you do synthesis, every being is uplifted to the peak of intelligence and progress. Rebuilding the relays with or without the Reapers would arguably be simple. Hell, maybe they could even build portable relays into ships so they just zip across the galaxy instantly.

Speculations! Why not just say everybody gets built in hyperdrives. It's about as likely.

1. Presuming that you know more about FTL and Mass Relays than one of the guys who writes the stuff is arrogant and foolish. Being an ME writer, Weekes knows EVERYTHING we don't know.

2. You forget that the Reapers believe they are perfect. They believe to have no need to improve themselves. Plus they always jump into the galaxy at a specific point of development and shut down the Mass Relays to ensure their victory. As Weeke's said. This cycle was anomalous.

Also Weeke's said that it's 16 lightyears per day, at cruising speeds, not top speed. Top speeds would be much faster.

3. Ifs and buts aside, the poin of Control is to make them do what YOU want. It's well within the Reaper's ability to make Mass Relays, so if you give the order, they would be able to do it.

4. Common sense: Devs wouldn't have bothered to add a third choice and have it be portrayed as a good option if there were nothing to it.

Did you miss the statement form the star child...."You will die. You will control us but lose everything you have"?
What does that vague statement mean? Is there a limit to everything you lose? What of memories?

[WhiteKnyght]

dreman9999 wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...

LiarasShield wrote...

xsdob wrote...

I don't really see the point in it lying to me, it could have just left me at the control panel to die, or not show itself when the elevator came up, or even just not told me I had no options to pick from.

Why bring me up there and talk to me and attempt to discuss itself with me just to play some elaborate trick with no payoff for anyone involved. The reapers still lose, shepard still stops them, and even if I picked control all of you posting how the catalyst is a liar still picked destory and killed the reapers.

Where's this trick?

All your forces are nearly trapt in devastated solar system or the reapers live to possibly harvest your now stranded forces and their many reasons he could be lieing just his forces in the background still killing yours his false premise of saving us from synthetics but then using the geth with their reaper code to kill us instead of shutting them down or instead of using the reapers which are synthetic to destroy the other synthetics they are only destroying us instead of supposedly saving us

Untrue.

Patrick Weeke's clarified that FTL ships are fast enough to travel through the galaxy without the Mass Relays. They're just more convenient. He also mentioned that because of the mass relays, there was never a need to improve FTL, which can be done by reverse engineering parts from the reapers(just like Sovereign's main gun became the Thanix Cannon.)

Plus the Reapers built the mass relays. If you take control of them, Shepard could just order then to rebuild the relays.

If you do synthesis, every being is uplifted to the peak of intelligence and progress. Rebuilding the relays with or without the Reapers would arguably be simple. Hell, maybe they could even build portable relays into ships so they just zip across the galaxy instantly.

1.With synthesis you completly missed the promblem with it... Only the star child knows how to do it and using that allown does not solve it.....Also, the reapershave a history of controling organic with implants....You're letting him implant all organics in synthesis.

2. What does"You will die. You will control us and lose everything you have" mean?

1. If you watched the scene with Joker and EDI in the end, you see that they are still themselves. No worse off for it.

2. It means that Shepard is absorbed into the Citadel. His human body dies/ceases to exist, and his mind is integrated. The strategy guide refers to this ending as Shepard "becoming a Reaper" and as we know the minds of the reapers are the minds of every person used in their creation. Hence Sovereign's "We are each a nation. We are the pinnacle of evolution" quotes.

[LiarasShield]

Vigilant111 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Vigilant111 wrote...

Catalyst is NOT the reaper creator, as I believe the reapers were created by organics which long perished due to reaper rebellion

It matter not...The Catalyst is still in control.

No argument here

see the reapers have a hard time admitting that they are part of the chaos, and THEY are the exact obstacle that organics must over come

Doesn't justify the wrongs he has allowed to happen or why shepard should even trust him anyway

[The Angry One]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

1. Presuming that you know more about FTL and Mass Relays than one of the guys who writes the stuff is arrogant and foolish. Being an ME writer, Weekes knows EVERYTHING we don't know.

Presuming that what Weekes said in an on the spot interview overrides the codex and in-game dialogue is the height of hilarity.

2. You forget that the Reapers believe they are perfect. They believe to have no need to improve themselves.

Which is why Harbinger is constantly experimenting on new Reaper created husk forms and only take the species they consider the best among the crop to become capital ships.

Plus they always jump into the galaxy at a specific point of development and shut down the Mass Relays to ensure their victory. As Weeke's said. This cycle was anomalous.

Irrelevant. Higher FTL speeds would be more efficient for a variety of reasons.

Also Weeke's said that it's 16 lightyears per day, at cruising speeds, not top speed. Top speeds would be much faster.

The codex directly implies otherwise. Also, it's 12 ly/day. The codex states that  Reaper speed of 30 ly/day "more than half" faster than Citadel ships. Half would be 15. Other dialogue implies 12. So 12 it is.

3. Ifs and buts aside, the poin of Control is to make them do what YOU want. It's well within the Reaper's ability to make Mass Relays, so if you give the order, they would be able to do it.

While dying and "losing everything you are". So again, assumptions.

4. Common sense: Devs wouldn't have bothered to add a third choice and have it be portrayed as a good option if there were nothing to it.

And yet Joker is still limping.

[dreman9999]

Vigilant111 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Vigilant111 wrote...

Catalyst is NOT the reaper creator, as I believe the reapers were created by organics which long perished due to reaper rebellion

It matter not...The Catalyst is still in control.

No argument here

see the reapers have a hard time admitting that they are part of the chaos, and THEY are the exact obstacle that organics must over come

I think you missed what the problem is....It the nature of conflict in organics...The cycle is there but organic are the cause of it.
Notethat synthetics only attack when..
1. Attacked first.
2. commanded to attack by the one that controls them.

The reapers do have a point. Organic make synthetics and then organics nature start conflict with them....
But how they they and solve it I don't agree.

[Vigilant111]

LiarasShield wrote...

Vigilant111 wrote...

Catalyst is NOT the reaper creator, as I believe the reapers were created by organics which long perished due to reaper rebellion

The Catalyst

( The Reapers Our My Solution I control them)


Even if he didn't make them he controls them to destroy the entire galaxy and us and is using the very synthetics he swore to protect us from to kill us

Yes I agree, that was just my 2-cent banter to highlight the fallacy of Catalyst's POV:lol: but no Catalyst is not a creator to be specific, there is a difference between creator and controller, in fact Catalyst is just an communication interface between the reapers and Shepard, nothing more, a proxy only

Modifié par Vigilant111, 08 juin 2012 - 05:42 .

[dreman9999]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...

LiarasShield wrote...

xsdob wrote...

I don't really see the point in it lying to me, it could have just left me at the control panel to die, or not show itself when the elevator came up, or even just not told me I had no options to pick from.

Why bring me up there and talk to me and attempt to discuss itself with me just to play some elaborate trick with no payoff for anyone involved. The reapers still lose, shepard still stops them, and even if I picked control all of you posting how the catalyst is a liar still picked destory and killed the reapers.

Where's this trick?

All your forces are nearly trapt in devastated solar system or the reapers live to possibly harvest your now stranded forces and their many reasons he could be lieing just his forces in the background still killing yours his false premise of saving us from synthetics but then using the geth with their reaper code to kill us instead of shutting them down or instead of using the reapers which are synthetic to destroy the other synthetics they are only destroying us instead of supposedly saving us

Untrue.

Patrick Weeke's clarified that FTL ships are fast enough to travel through the galaxy without the Mass Relays. They're just more convenient. He also mentioned that because of the mass relays, there was never a need to improve FTL, which can be done by reverse engineering parts from the reapers(just like Sovereign's main gun became the Thanix Cannon.)

Plus the Reapers built the mass relays. If you take control of them, Shepard could just order then to rebuild the relays.

If you do synthesis, every being is uplifted to the peak of intelligence and progress. Rebuilding the relays with or without the Reapers would arguably be simple. Hell, maybe they could even build portable relays into ships so they just zip across the galaxy instantly.

1.With synthesis you completly missed the promblem with it... Only the star child knows how to do it and using that allown does not solve it.....Also, the reapershave a history of controling organic with implants....You're letting him implant all organics in synthesis.

2. What does"You will die. You will control us and lose everything you have" mean?

1. If you watched the scene with Joker and EDI in the end, you see that they are still themselves. No worse off for it.

2. It means that Shepard is absorbed into the Citadel. His human body dies/ceases to exist, and his mind is integrated. The strategy guide refers to this ending as Shepard "becoming a Reaper" and as we know the minds of the reapers are the minds of every person used in their creation. Hence Sovereign's "We are each a nation. We are the pinnacle of evolution" quotes.

.1 Please, that is no indication of what happen. You can't even prove that is real....Ask your self this...Are they themselves happy or are they control to be happy?

2.Do you realize that their is no limit give to everything in that statement? What of memories...Memories can be lost with ease.

[LiarasShield]

The Reapers they're my solution I control them


Wether the catalyst created the reapers or like he said simply controls them that still doesn't make up for the fact that his reapers have been destroying most of the known galaxy and our earth


Doesn't make up for the fact that he is using synthetics to kill us which he supposedly claimed he try to protect us from synthetics

His reapers are slaughtering our forces from space you can even see it when you get to the top platform here I don't think their is really much to debate

[The Angry One]

Also you know what? I take issue with the idea that faster FTL hasn't been developed due to the convenience of the relays.
That's nonsense. Relays are bottlenecks and predictable avenues. You can set up defences around them and block those who you don't want to pass. Hell, part of Arcturus Station's purpose was to be a home for the Arcturus fleet, to block any hostile forces heading to Earth.

If you could develop faster ship FTL, you would have a huge advantage. You could go where you liked and nobody would be able to stop you. With only double speed, the Reapers pull this off themselves several times.
Do you really, really think the humans, Turians or Batarians wouldn't fall over themselves at the chance to get higher FTL speeds? You're dreaming.

[mauro2222]

He certainly knows how to violate the lore if what he says is true. We already discussed this, even if they can go at higher speeds, they don't have...

a) Mapped trayectory.
Gas giants to discharge the core (and this is very important, they can barely resist a day of full travel without the need of being discharged; if you go further, you either die of radiation or your ship explodes)
c) The possibility of crashing against a planet, star, getting suck by a plot... I mean black hole.

[dreman9999]

Opsrbest wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Opsrbest wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Alien1099 wrote...

Because the writers force you to.

No they don't. That up to you. They force you to pick but not beleive him.

That does pose an interesting ending option that wasn't preasented. If you didn't belive or trust the Catalyst, why no indecision ending where the Reapers would win? 

How do you know what you saw was real?

That's probably the most interesting thing about the choice of the character. Under either IT or at face value Sheaprds mother/father would be both more relateable to the player then the child. The choice of familiarity and comfort/safety of what you know against the unknown. Although for Earthborn Shepard it might be a little odd I think they could work it in some way. If i's real or not it doesn't really matter.

It does matter if it's real or not real. It's a question of whether Shepard is being trick to do what the reapers want or not. With a race of machines with a history of desption and warping the mind...It Matters.

[jijeebo]

Because once you start to dooubt what he's told you the final decision becomes annoyingly difficult to judge because all the information regarding what the three paths accomplish is unreliable.


And since my Shepard couldn't be bothered arguing, neither could I.

[LiarasShield]

once again I'm at a loss of why people keep trying to support this catalyst child thing

[Wulfram]

The Angry One wrote...

Presuming that what Weekes said in an on the spot interview overrides the codex and in-game dialogue is the height of hilarity.

The codex describes the reapers as travelling at "more than twice the speed" of citadel ships, and says that they go at 30 light years per day.  Which implies citadel ships can travel at 10-15 light years per day - fitting with Ashley describing 12 light years as a days cruise - which logically implies that travel between clusters is somewhat possible, if very slow.

[mauro2222]

The Angry One wrote...

If you could develop faster ship FTL, you would have a huge advantage. You could go where you liked and nobody would be able to stop you. With only double speed, the Reapers pull this off themselves several times.
Do you really, really think the humans, Turians or Batarians wouldn't fall over themselves at the chance to get higher FTL speeds? You're dreaming.

The ability to surpass and attack your enemy from the rear and flanks in a 3D space is a huge advantage. And considering that the main weapons are in the front of the ships, you just won the battle.
So yes, I agree.

[WhiteKnyght]

The Angry One wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...

1. Presuming that you know more about FTL and Mass Relays than one of the guys who writes the stuff is arrogant and foolish. Being an ME writer, Weekes knows EVERYTHING we don't know.

Presuming that what Weekes said in an on the spot interview overrides the codex and in-game dialogue is the height of hilarity.

2. You forget that the Reapers believe they are perfect. They believe to have no need to improve themselves.

Which is why Harbinger is constantly experimenting on new Reaper created husk forms and only take the species they consider the best among the crop to become capital ships.

Plus they always jump into the galaxy at a specific point of development and shut down the Mass Relays to ensure their victory. As Weeke's said. This cycle was anomalous.

Irrelevant. Higher FTL speeds would be more efficient for a variety of reasons.

Also Weeke's said that it's 16 lightyears per day, at cruising speeds, not top speed. Top speeds would be much faster.

The codex directly implies otherwise. Also, it's 12 ly/day. The codex states that  Reaper speed of 30 ly/day "more than half" faster than Citadel ships. Half would be 15. Other dialogue implies 12. So 12 it is.

3. Ifs and buts aside, the poin of Control is to make them do what YOU want. It's well within the Reaper's ability to make Mass Relays, so if you give the order, they would be able to do it.

While dying and "losing everything you are". So again, assumptions.

4. Common sense: Devs wouldn't have bothered to add a third choice and have it be portrayed as a good option if there were nothing to it.

And yet Joker is still limping.

Weekes confirmed the interview as true later. And none of the other writers offered any statements to the contrary.

Codexes in ME are no different than Codexes in Dragon Age. They are written as the people in the game believe things to be, not necessarily accurate. You can look up David Gaider's quotes to prove that. Weekes, being a writer for the game, would know everything we don't know.

In any case, his points stand. And let's not forget he's one of the writers working on Extended Cut. His statements were probably meant to hint at things to come.

Also fun fact that I noticed. Watch the Crucible scene again. The Citadel is the what covers the local cluster with the crucible's energy before being destroyed, and the relay that starts the chain reaction is not the Charon relay. The scene shows the chain starting in another cluster. There is a distinct possibility that the Charon relay wasn't destroyed. Meaning the fleets could get home if it turns out to be true.

[SubAstris]

Opsrbest wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Opsrbest wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Alien1099 wrote...

Because the writers force you to.

No they don't. That up to you. They force you to pick but not beleive him.

That does pose an interesting ending option that wasn't preasented. If you didn't belive or trust the Catalyst, why no indecision ending where the Reapers would win? 

How do you know what you saw was real?

That's probably the most interesting thing about the choice of the character. Under either IT or at face value Sheaprds mother/father would be both more relateable to the player then the child. The choice of familiarity and comfort/safety of what you know against the unknown. Although for Earthborn Shepard it might be a little odd I think they could work it in some way. If i's real or not it doesn't really matter.

His/her mother could have been good if she had been established as a character already in ME3. If they chose Shepard's mother as the form, the audience would want to know about Shepard's mother backstory as well as what the Catalyst is saying which would distract from the matter at hand . Taking the form of the child gets around that problem.

[wright1978]

Reapers are his/its solution, therefore they are his creation and his responsibility. He/it is responsible for the genocide of trillions and the turning of billions of others into reaper goo. In other words it is a genocidal maniac and that isn't someone who is in any way acceptable/trustworthy/neutral as the arbiter of the endings. Yet for some reason Shep passively accepts its wacky logic and trots off to do its bidding.

[IdTheDemon]

I'd trust neither.

I'd rather uninstall Origins, delete Mass Effect 3, and prance outside in flip flops.