This is a response to this thread. I post it here because that subforum doesn't allow spoilers and I don't want Selene to delete another post of mine without warning.
--
Even knowing his transformation was only to have another boss fight and it wasn't what the story was going to be originally... I think I liked that Orsino turns into a monster no matter what you do. Here's how I make sense our of it.
He spends the game advocating against blood magic and yelling at Meredith for seeing blood mages everywhere... turns out he is a blood mage and a personal friend of Dr. Frankenstein. He's nothing but a little petty liar who only wants power and will lie and kill to get it. When the hard times come, he won't hesitate to give in to the demons and become a monster to get his way. And Meredith, the one supposedly paranoid and evil, turns out to be right - blood magic will corrupt,it will break through, and nothing is safe around it, not even the theoretically most responsible and trustworthy mages, like Orsino. "Meredith-The-Monster" was right all along. Probably not right about her solution -that's why she's an enemy, too-, but absolutely right about the problem.
I liked Orsino's death.
Débuté par
Guest_Nyoka_*
, juin 08 2012 05:39
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#2
Posté 08 juin 2012 - 05:54
Wulfram
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Orsino being a blood mage is fine and cool. But him just turning into an insane monster was lame.
Maybe they should have had him turn into the harvester thing, but not go insane - or not quite so insane, anyway. Have him initially just attack the Templars, kill them and turn back to human. Then leave it to the player to decide whether to go "Aargh, die monster" or "Hey, nice trick"
Maybe they should have had him turn into the harvester thing, but not go insane - or not quite so insane, anyway. Have him initially just attack the Templars, kill them and turn back to human. Then leave it to the player to decide whether to go "Aargh, die monster" or "Hey, nice trick"
Modifié par Wulfram, 08 juin 2012 - 05:55 .
#3
Posté 08 juin 2012 - 06:00
robertthebard
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They'd have to come up with another line, they used that one in the Prologue with Flemeth.Wulfram wrote...
Orsino being a blood mage is fine and cool. But him just turning into an insane monster was lame.
Maybe they should have had him turn into the harvester thing, but not go insane - or not quite so insane, anyway. Have him initially just attack the Templars, kill them and turn back to human. Then leave it to the player to decide whether to go "Aargh, die monster" or "Hey, nice trick"
#4
Posté 08 juin 2012 - 06:05
LobselVith8
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Orsino was an example of an insane and stupid mage antagonist - like virtually all the mage antagonists in Dragon Age II. I wish Dragon Age II handled the dichotomy like Skyrim did - no stupid and insane leaders, only flawed leaders who don't go insane or stupid simply for being an antagonist. Tullis and Ulfric are what Meredith and Orsino could have been. Mages, templars - both suffer from being written as one-dimensional caricatures.
#5
Guest_Nyoka_*
Posté 08 juin 2012 - 06:10
Guest_Nyoka_*
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Wulfram - well yeah, more options and alternative circumstances are always better, but it's DA2 we're talking about. The game with one cave and one room. I'm only trying to make sense out of it as it is.
#6
Posté 08 juin 2012 - 10:48
Samzo77
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I agree, the boss fight was good. It drove home the point that both sides suffer corruption.
#7
Posté 09 juin 2012 - 12:43
TEWR
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Oy.....
That is actually not correct at all. Context matters here and what you're doing is not only focusing on the bad elements, but exaggerating them to the point of being untruthful.
1) He's about to commit what amounts to suicide. He has no reason to lie at this point, because there's nothing left to lie for. He says that he has never practiced blood magic in the past. Again, no reason to lie anymore.
2) Yes he was a friend to Quentin, but the exact circumstances of that friendship are not revealed. However, we can assert that because he was afraid to tell Meredith about Quentin, he did not support Quentin's killing spree. He didn't tell Meredith about what Quentin was doing not because he wanted him free and able to kill, but because Meredith would've used it as further evidence to oppress the Mages -- for acts they had nothing to do with -- or to call for the RoA. Had he not been afraid of what she would've done, he would've told her. And might I add that although we don't see him having taken any action towards stopping Quentin, that doesn't mean it didn't happen?
He may not have reported to Meredith, but that doesn't mean he didn't report it to Thrask. That doesn't mean he didn't report it to the City Guard, or go out on his own with some Mages trying to find Quentin.
Hell, that might explain why he was with Mages outside of the Gallows during Act II's climax. Perhaps because he was trying to take down Quentin, on his own, without risking the lives of the entire Circle by bringing it to Meredith the Nutjob. Sure Hawke already did that, but maybe Orsino hadn't heard about that.
3) He cares nothing for power. Read his codex. He took the position of First Enchanter because no one else was stepping up to the plate and because the Mages needed an advocate for their well-being. And you see this mindset demonstrated time and time again. First when you meet him in Hightown, where he inquires about his fellow mages and is distraught that they were killed. Secondly during Act III's beginning. Third during Act III's final quest beginning. And finally when he makes a last ditch attempt to save the Circle by telling Meredith he will help her search the Circle for blood mages.
4) He chooses to become an Abomination for various reasons, none of them having to do with him wanting his way. The first is plot stupidity/gameplay trumping story. The second is because he feels that there is no longer any hope for the Mages, so what's the point in playing fair if the Templars were never interested in fair to begin with. He performs blood magic at that point because he's already being punished for something he had nothing to do with, so he might as well fight with everything he can. He's not doing it because he wants to. He's doing it because the Templars made him into a monster, and he figured he'd show them the monster they made. It doesn't prove the Templars right. If anything, it proves the Mages right.
5) He doesn't support blood magic, except in that final instance because the Templars don't care about innocence, fairness, or justice. Merely bigotry, hatred, and paranoia. The fact that he thinks the rebellion Thrask was creating had Mages practicing blood magic lends itself to the idea that he doesn't support it -- calling it the worst possible conclusion. This is further made apparent by when he asks Meredith to stop the RoA where he would then help her find any blood mages, so long as all of the Mages weren't punished for an act they had nothing to do with -- meaning Anders' spectacle.
Meredith on the other hand shoots down the idea because she wants to appease a hypothetical mob -- and considering Anders set his bomb to go off around midnight (per his Rivalry path dialogue) there's no evidence a mob had formed. If it's midnight, everyone's asleep. If they're asleep and are woken up, they won't know what's going on. Ergo, they won't know who did it. They might just as well think it's the Qunari again rather then Mages.
It's common sense.
And additionally, I highly doubt that any mob where its citizenry were actively opposing the Templars and supporting the Mages would call for the Mages to be punished for something they didn't do.
First rule of being a ruling person: Never appease and cater to a mob's desires. It makes them grow bolder and makes problems worse down the line.
Considering his codex says he'd do anything to protect his charges, I could easily see him giving himself over if he felt he couldn't keep his connection to Quentin secret any longer and would be considered a blood mage.
Whether Meredith would've acted rationally if he had done so, I highly doubt. I'd think she'd still say the Circle was corrupt, despite the fact that by Orsino's act of surrendering he would've shown that the Circle isn't corrupt.
This is deliberately ignoring the fact that if you push a mage into a corner, punish them unfairly and/or abuse them, and don't consider them people then they will turn into the very animals you've painted them as.
Orsino wasn't corrupted by blood magic. He was corrupted by fear and paranoia. The same fear and paranoia Mages have to live with day in and day out.
I mean, if you're going to say Meredith was right then you have to conversely say Orsino was right. You have to say that everyone opposed to Meredith was right, because they all claimed she was insane. Thrask, Hawke, Orsino, etc.
And considering she acquired the broken lyrium idol in Act II -- which we're told is more potent broken then intact -- I think that at that moment she was immediately lost to it. Which points to everything being her fault.
==========================================================================
I still find how Bioware handled Orsino to be one of the absolute worst portrayals I've seen for writing. And that's saying something. The fact that they wanted another boss battle just cuz really sort of kills Orsino's character, because it just doesn't seem realistic for him to go off the deep end so spontaneously.
I can understand why he goes off the deep end, but how it's presented is just.... bad.
If Bioware wanted Orsino to be a boss battle, many things would've needed to be done in order to make Orsino have some depth to his person rather then just "GRRRRAAAAAAAHHHH WE AREN'T PEOPLE. WE'RE DATA CONSTRUCTS!"
We are informed of some of these things in-game, but they often go overlooked or are not considered to be the truth of the matter by some people that it ultimately makes it seem like they weren't given their due. Others are just what I think should've happened:
1) Interaction with him starting at Act 1, so we get to know him better. In this, we find that part of why he's done so well in the Circle is due to him having an eidetic memory.
2) Establishment that he and Quentin were friends when Starkhaven's Circle was around and Quentin was sane-ish. Quentin had to have been close to the edge prior to his wife's death, and his wife's death was what sent him over the edge..
3) A clear portrayal of him that doesn't make him out to be a vile criminal that supported Quentin, but rather someone that found himself complicit in a series of crimes he neither knew about nor supported. But because of Meredith's nature, he couldn't report it to her or any Templars under her command -- because the majority of the Templars under the command of Meredith are like-minded and would report to her immediately.
4) Orsino going Harvestino is only used in the pro-Templar side of things, where his fall into the depths of insanity makes sense in the context of things.
5) The Harvester is used in the pro-mage path only if Orsino is spared -- as should've been done in the first place -- and a Pride Demon comes through a tear in the Veil. This Pride Demon then says "Here's..... Johnny!" -- I would've liked that to be there -- and proceeds to possess some mook mage.
Dead or alive, it doesn't matter. But it's a mook mage. The possessed Mage then proceeds to slash his wrists and perform the Harvester ritual. Since the ritual is blood magic and the arcane is eternal in the Fade -- as evidenced by Torpor's remarks during Night Terrors -- it makes sense for a Demon to know how it's done.
6) If the pro-Mage Hawke decides to fight Orsino after Orsino feels compelled to confess that he knew Quentin -- because he might die and he doesn't want a guilty conscience -- then Orsino would fight Hawke as a very powerful Force Mage, moving throughout the area in the Gallows and attacking Hawke.
Not just the area where we do fight the Harvester, but the entire visible area.
He'd fight Hawke not because he wants to, but because he feels the need to spread the word of what Meredith had done and he thinks that he can't die. Or something like that.
He'd even fight similarly to Xigbar in Kingdom Hearts II: , but he'd also use talents that are available to the player's Force Mage spec.
Nyoka wrote...
He spends the game advocating against blood magic and yelling at Meredith for seeing blood mages everywhere... turns out he is a blood mage and a personal friend of Dr. Frankenstein. He's nothing but a little petty liar who only wants power and will lie and kill to get it. When the hard times come, he won't hesitate to give in to the demons and become a monster to get his way.
That is actually not correct at all. Context matters here and what you're doing is not only focusing on the bad elements, but exaggerating them to the point of being untruthful.
1) He's about to commit what amounts to suicide. He has no reason to lie at this point, because there's nothing left to lie for. He says that he has never practiced blood magic in the past. Again, no reason to lie anymore.
2) Yes he was a friend to Quentin, but the exact circumstances of that friendship are not revealed. However, we can assert that because he was afraid to tell Meredith about Quentin, he did not support Quentin's killing spree. He didn't tell Meredith about what Quentin was doing not because he wanted him free and able to kill, but because Meredith would've used it as further evidence to oppress the Mages -- for acts they had nothing to do with -- or to call for the RoA. Had he not been afraid of what she would've done, he would've told her. And might I add that although we don't see him having taken any action towards stopping Quentin, that doesn't mean it didn't happen?
He may not have reported to Meredith, but that doesn't mean he didn't report it to Thrask. That doesn't mean he didn't report it to the City Guard, or go out on his own with some Mages trying to find Quentin.
Hell, that might explain why he was with Mages outside of the Gallows during Act II's climax. Perhaps because he was trying to take down Quentin, on his own, without risking the lives of the entire Circle by bringing it to Meredith the Nutjob. Sure Hawke already did that, but maybe Orsino hadn't heard about that.
3) He cares nothing for power. Read his codex. He took the position of First Enchanter because no one else was stepping up to the plate and because the Mages needed an advocate for their well-being. And you see this mindset demonstrated time and time again. First when you meet him in Hightown, where he inquires about his fellow mages and is distraught that they were killed. Secondly during Act III's beginning. Third during Act III's final quest beginning. And finally when he makes a last ditch attempt to save the Circle by telling Meredith he will help her search the Circle for blood mages.
4) He chooses to become an Abomination for various reasons, none of them having to do with him wanting his way. The first is plot stupidity/gameplay trumping story. The second is because he feels that there is no longer any hope for the Mages, so what's the point in playing fair if the Templars were never interested in fair to begin with. He performs blood magic at that point because he's already being punished for something he had nothing to do with, so he might as well fight with everything he can. He's not doing it because he wants to. He's doing it because the Templars made him into a monster, and he figured he'd show them the monster they made. It doesn't prove the Templars right. If anything, it proves the Mages right.
5) He doesn't support blood magic, except in that final instance because the Templars don't care about innocence, fairness, or justice. Merely bigotry, hatred, and paranoia. The fact that he thinks the rebellion Thrask was creating had Mages practicing blood magic lends itself to the idea that he doesn't support it -- calling it the worst possible conclusion. This is further made apparent by when he asks Meredith to stop the RoA where he would then help her find any blood mages, so long as all of the Mages weren't punished for an act they had nothing to do with -- meaning Anders' spectacle.
Meredith on the other hand shoots down the idea because she wants to appease a hypothetical mob -- and considering Anders set his bomb to go off around midnight (per his Rivalry path dialogue) there's no evidence a mob had formed. If it's midnight, everyone's asleep. If they're asleep and are woken up, they won't know what's going on. Ergo, they won't know who did it. They might just as well think it's the Qunari again rather then Mages.
It's common sense.
And additionally, I highly doubt that any mob where its citizenry were actively opposing the Templars and supporting the Mages would call for the Mages to be punished for something they didn't do.
First rule of being a ruling person: Never appease and cater to a mob's desires. It makes them grow bolder and makes problems worse down the line.
Considering his codex says he'd do anything to protect his charges, I could easily see him giving himself over if he felt he couldn't keep his connection to Quentin secret any longer and would be considered a blood mage.
Whether Meredith would've acted rationally if he had done so, I highly doubt. I'd think she'd still say the Circle was corrupt, despite the fact that by Orsino's act of surrendering he would've shown that the Circle isn't corrupt.
And Meredith, the one supposedly paranoid and evil, turns out to be right - blood magic will corrupt,it will break through, and nothing is safe around it, not even the theoretically most responsible and trustworthy mages, like Orsino. "Meredith-The-Monster" was right all along. Probably not right about her solution -that's why she's an enemy, too-, but absolutely right about the problem.
This is deliberately ignoring the fact that if you push a mage into a corner, punish them unfairly and/or abuse them, and don't consider them people then they will turn into the very animals you've painted them as.
Orsino wasn't corrupted by blood magic. He was corrupted by fear and paranoia. The same fear and paranoia Mages have to live with day in and day out.
I mean, if you're going to say Meredith was right then you have to conversely say Orsino was right. You have to say that everyone opposed to Meredith was right, because they all claimed she was insane. Thrask, Hawke, Orsino, etc.
And considering she acquired the broken lyrium idol in Act II -- which we're told is more potent broken then intact -- I think that at that moment she was immediately lost to it. Which points to everything being her fault.
==========================================================================
I still find how Bioware handled Orsino to be one of the absolute worst portrayals I've seen for writing. And that's saying something. The fact that they wanted another boss battle just cuz really sort of kills Orsino's character, because it just doesn't seem realistic for him to go off the deep end so spontaneously.
I can understand why he goes off the deep end, but how it's presented is just.... bad.
If Bioware wanted Orsino to be a boss battle, many things would've needed to be done in order to make Orsino have some depth to his person rather then just "GRRRRAAAAAAAHHHH WE AREN'T PEOPLE. WE'RE DATA CONSTRUCTS!"
We are informed of some of these things in-game, but they often go overlooked or are not considered to be the truth of the matter by some people that it ultimately makes it seem like they weren't given their due. Others are just what I think should've happened:
1) Interaction with him starting at Act 1, so we get to know him better. In this, we find that part of why he's done so well in the Circle is due to him having an eidetic memory.
2) Establishment that he and Quentin were friends when Starkhaven's Circle was around and Quentin was sane-ish. Quentin had to have been close to the edge prior to his wife's death, and his wife's death was what sent him over the edge..
3) A clear portrayal of him that doesn't make him out to be a vile criminal that supported Quentin, but rather someone that found himself complicit in a series of crimes he neither knew about nor supported. But because of Meredith's nature, he couldn't report it to her or any Templars under her command -- because the majority of the Templars under the command of Meredith are like-minded and would report to her immediately.
4) Orsino going Harvestino is only used in the pro-Templar side of things, where his fall into the depths of insanity makes sense in the context of things.
5) The Harvester is used in the pro-mage path only if Orsino is spared -- as should've been done in the first place -- and a Pride Demon comes through a tear in the Veil. This Pride Demon then says "Here's..... Johnny!" -- I would've liked that to be there -- and proceeds to possess some mook mage.
Dead or alive, it doesn't matter. But it's a mook mage. The possessed Mage then proceeds to slash his wrists and perform the Harvester ritual. Since the ritual is blood magic and the arcane is eternal in the Fade -- as evidenced by Torpor's remarks during Night Terrors -- it makes sense for a Demon to know how it's done.
6) If the pro-Mage Hawke decides to fight Orsino after Orsino feels compelled to confess that he knew Quentin -- because he might die and he doesn't want a guilty conscience -- then Orsino would fight Hawke as a very powerful Force Mage, moving throughout the area in the Gallows and attacking Hawke.
Not just the area where we do fight the Harvester, but the entire visible area.
He'd fight Hawke not because he wants to, but because he feels the need to spread the word of what Meredith had done and he thinks that he can't die. Or something like that.
He'd even fight similarly to Xigbar in Kingdom Hearts II: , but he'd also use talents that are available to the player's Force Mage spec.
Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 09 juin 2012 - 03:44 .
#8
Posté 09 juin 2012 - 01:16
Melca36
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Nyoka wrote...
This is a response to this thread. I post it here because that subforum doesn't allow spoilers and I don't want Selene to delete another post of mine without warning.
--
Even knowing his transformation was only to have another boss fight and it wasn't what the story was going to be originally... I think I liked that Orsino turns into a monster no matter what you do. Here's how I make sense our of it.
He spends the game advocating against blood magic and yelling at Meredith for seeing blood mages everywhere... turns out he is a blood mage and a personal friend of Dr. Frankenstein. He's nothing but a little petty liar who only wants power and will lie and kill to get it. When the hard times come, he won't hesitate to give in to the demons and become a monster to get his way. And Meredith, the one supposedly paranoid and evil, turns out to be right - blood magic will corrupt,it will break through, and nothing is safe around it, not even the theoretically most responsible and trustworthy mages, like Orsino. "Meredith-The-Monster" was right all along. Probably not right about her solution -that's why she's an enemy, too-, but absolutely right about the problem.
So its okay if Templars rape and sexually abuse mages? <_<
Also Orsino was killed off because they wanted a second boss fight. His character has been acknowledged by the writers as the least developed.
#10
Guest_Nizaris1_*
Posté 09 juin 2012 - 03:11
Guest_Nizaris1_*
Guest_Nizaris1_*
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I think it is better
1) He admit to Hawke he is actually a Blood Mage
- Then Hawke have an option to let them all go or feel pissed off and destroy them all
or
2)The Veil suddenly become thin because of Lyrium Idol, then Fade Spirits possessing Orsino and some Mages
- Then Hawke must face them all, in this way Orsino and the mages don't look stupid, and it will be an interesting plot, because Meredith is the cause the veil become thin
or
3)Similar like point 2 above, the Veil becomes thin for some reason, a boss Spirit and minions poured out because of get interested for the heat of battle. The Spirit try to seduce Mages but the Champion and the Templars manage to stop it. Hawke, Orsino, Mages and remaining Templar fight them all
- This will also lead to interesting plot, where the Champion, Mages and Templars join hands facing the demons
1) He admit to Hawke he is actually a Blood Mage
- Then Hawke have an option to let them all go or feel pissed off and destroy them all
or
2)The Veil suddenly become thin because of Lyrium Idol, then Fade Spirits possessing Orsino and some Mages
- Then Hawke must face them all, in this way Orsino and the mages don't look stupid, and it will be an interesting plot, because Meredith is the cause the veil become thin
or
3)Similar like point 2 above, the Veil becomes thin for some reason, a boss Spirit and minions poured out because of get interested for the heat of battle. The Spirit try to seduce Mages but the Champion and the Templars manage to stop it. Hawke, Orsino, Mages and remaining Templar fight them all
- This will also lead to interesting plot, where the Champion, Mages and Templars join hands facing the demons
Modifié par Nizaris1, 09 juin 2012 - 03:17 .
#11
Posté 09 juin 2012 - 01:57
Silver77nz
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Orsino's death made no sense to me. If he has Hawke on his side you would think he wouldn't force a fight yet he still forces a fight. Why cause he is a coward and doesn't want to face Meredith? I still don't really understand why he did it. Was it fear? 2 boss fights why.....
#12
Guest_Nyoka_*
Posté 09 juin 2012 - 02:58
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Ok...Melca36 wrote...
Nyoka wrote...
...Even knowing his transformation was only to have another boss fight...
...Probably not right about her solution -that's why she's an enemy, too-....
So its okay if Templars rape and sexually abuse mages? <_<
Also Orsino was killed off because they wanted a second boss fight.
#13
Posté 09 juin 2012 - 03:06
LolaLei
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What was Orsino's original story supposed to be before they decided to make him a boss fight?
When I first played DA2 I thought that depending on who you sided with would result in who you had to fight as a boss battle, so if you side with the Templars then you'd fight Orsino and visa versa. But anyway, I took it as Orsino decided to turn to blood magic at the end because he felt backed into a corner and wanted to protect the Mages in his care, I guess he thought that he'd be mentally strong enough to fight off any demon possession or ill effects, not realising that he'd end up attacking the very people he was trying to protect (kinda like Anders does when Justice takes over if you can't talk him down from killing that Mage in the caverns underneath the Gallows.)
When I first played DA2 I thought that depending on who you sided with would result in who you had to fight as a boss battle, so if you side with the Templars then you'd fight Orsino and visa versa. But anyway, I took it as Orsino decided to turn to blood magic at the end because he felt backed into a corner and wanted to protect the Mages in his care, I guess he thought that he'd be mentally strong enough to fight off any demon possession or ill effects, not realising that he'd end up attacking the very people he was trying to protect (kinda like Anders does when Justice takes over if you can't talk him down from killing that Mage in the caverns underneath the Gallows.)
Modifié par LolaLei, 09 juin 2012 - 03:07 .
#14
Posté 09 juin 2012 - 03:09
LolaLei
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Melca36 wrote...
Nyoka wrote...
This is a response to this thread. I post it here because that subforum doesn't allow spoilers and I don't want Selene to delete another post of mine without warning.
--
Even knowing his transformation was only to have another boss fight and it wasn't what the story was going to be originally... I think I liked that Orsino turns into a monster no matter what you do. Here's how I make sense our of it.
He spends the game advocating against blood magic and yelling at Meredith for seeing blood mages everywhere... turns out he is a blood mage and a personal friend of Dr. Frankenstein. He's nothing but a little petty liar who only wants power and will lie and kill to get it. When the hard times come, he won't hesitate to give in to the demons and become a monster to get his way. And Meredith, the one supposedly paranoid and evil, turns out to be right - blood magic will corrupt,it will break through, and nothing is safe around it, not even the theoretically most responsible and trustworthy mages, like Orsino. "Meredith-The-Monster" was right all along. Probably not right about her solution -that's why she's an enemy, too-, but absolutely right about the problem.
So its okay if Templars rape and sexually abuse mages? <_<
Also Orsino was killed off because they wanted a second boss fight. His character has been acknowledged by the writers as the least developed.
Lol what's the rape and abuse of Mages got to do with this thread? I think that topic is better off discussed in the Mages vs Templars threads.
#15
Posté 09 juin 2012 - 05:08
Dave of Canada
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Always imagined Orsino was a blood mage, his refusal to want people searching the Circle was out of protection of himself rather than his peers and ultimately his "reasonable" appearance is actually him being manipulative. Thus, when he snaps in the end, it's all the pressure of him trying to hide it turned out for naught.
Despite what he says, most blood mages need to study the art (after being thought the basics from a demon) and in all likelihood, that -wasn't- the first time he used blood magic. If it was, he's studied it pretty extensively, enough that his knowledge on the subject was above and beyond the most average of them all.
Hell, whatever Quentin sent him couldn't come close to the ritual he performed, as Quentin focused on reanimation rather than corpse-beasts.
However, his portrayal in the mage-path is a bit underwhelming. There should've been a bit more to his "snapping", rather than him saying a line and then doing it regardless. Perhaps he does it, remains in control but becomes possessed mid-fight and Hawke tries to reason with the Orsino-monster.
Despite what he says, most blood mages need to study the art (after being thought the basics from a demon) and in all likelihood, that -wasn't- the first time he used blood magic. If it was, he's studied it pretty extensively, enough that his knowledge on the subject was above and beyond the most average of them all.
Hell, whatever Quentin sent him couldn't come close to the ritual he performed, as Quentin focused on reanimation rather than corpse-beasts.
However, his portrayal in the mage-path is a bit underwhelming. There should've been a bit more to his "snapping", rather than him saying a line and then doing it regardless. Perhaps he does it, remains in control but becomes possessed mid-fight and Hawke tries to reason with the Orsino-monster.
Modifié par Dave of Canada, 09 juin 2012 - 05:09 .
#16
Posté 09 juin 2012 - 05:11
Melca36
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LolaLei wrote...
Melca36 wrote...
Nyoka wrote...
This is a response to this thread. I post it here because that subforum doesn't allow spoilers and I don't want Selene to delete another post of mine without warning.
--
Even knowing his transformation was only to have another boss fight and it wasn't what the story was going to be originally... I think I liked that Orsino turns into a monster no matter what you do. Here's how I make sense our of it.
He spends the game advocating against blood magic and yelling at Meredith for seeing blood mages everywhere... turns out he is a blood mage and a personal friend of Dr. Frankenstein. He's nothing but a little petty liar who only wants power and will lie and kill to get it. When the hard times come, he won't hesitate to give in to the demons and become a monster to get his way. And Meredith, the one supposedly paranoid and evil, turns out to be right - blood magic will corrupt,it will break through, and nothing is safe around it, not even the theoretically most responsible and trustworthy mages, like Orsino. "Meredith-The-Monster" was right all along. Probably not right about her solution -that's why she's an enemy, too-, but absolutely right about the problem.
So its okay if Templars rape and sexually abuse mages? <_<
Also Orsino was killed off because they wanted a second boss fight. His character has been acknowledged by the writers as the least developed.
Lol what's the rape and abuse of Mages got to do with this thread? I think that topic is better off discussed in the Mages vs Templars threads.
I know what the thread is about but most people dont realize Orsino was killed because they wanted the second boss fight and that was the ONLY reason he died.
#17
Posté 09 juin 2012 - 05:33
LolaLei
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Melca36 wrote...
LolaLei wrote...
Melca36 wrote...
Nyoka wrote...
This is a response to this thread. I post it here because that subforum doesn't allow spoilers and I don't want Selene to delete another post of mine without warning.
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Even knowing his transformation was only to have another boss fight and it wasn't what the story was going to be originally... I think I liked that Orsino turns into a monster no matter what you do. Here's how I make sense our of it.
He spends the game advocating against blood magic and yelling at Meredith for seeing blood mages everywhere... turns out he is a blood mage and a personal friend of Dr. Frankenstein. He's nothing but a little petty liar who only wants power and will lie and kill to get it. When the hard times come, he won't hesitate to give in to the demons and become a monster to get his way. And Meredith, the one supposedly paranoid and evil, turns out to be right - blood magic will corrupt,it will break through, and nothing is safe around it, not even the theoretically most responsible and trustworthy mages, like Orsino. "Meredith-The-Monster" was right all along. Probably not right about her solution -that's why she's an enemy, too-, but absolutely right about the problem.
So its okay if Templars rape and sexually abuse mages? <_<
Also Orsino was killed off because they wanted a second boss fight. His character has been acknowledged by the writers as the least developed.
Lol what's the rape and abuse of Mages got to do with this thread? I think that topic is better off discussed in the Mages vs Templars threads.
I know what the thread is about but most people dont realize Orsino was killed because they wanted the second boss fight and that was the ONLY reason he died.
I didn't know for sure, but I figured that was pretty much why we suddenly had to fight him. What was originally supposed to happen because I keep hearing people say that originally they had something else planned for him, but I can't find anything out about it online.
#18
Posté 10 juin 2012 - 03:09
TEWR
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Lolalei wrote...
What was originally supposed to happen because I keep hearing people say that originally they had something else planned for him, but I can't find anything out about it online.
Orsino would've confessed how he knew Quentin -- and how he didn't approve of what Quentin was doing, but couldn't do anything official about it -- and Hawke would have the choice to either forgive him or fight him.
#19
Posté 10 juin 2012 - 04:00
Sacred_Fantasy
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Nothing to ponder. Orsino was designed to be a boos fight. He served his role and died accordingly. Nothing he said or done would change that. At least he finally feel how it's like being a mindless harvester. Not everyone get that chance. He should be proud with his blood magic. Every mage should learn bloodmagic, turn into monster and killed everyone so I could smash their stupid brain into wall. Nothing is more pleasant than to give exactly what stubborn stupid people want despite all the warning not to do it.
Modifié par Sacred_Fantasy, 10 juin 2012 - 04:02 .
#20
Guest_Nizaris1_*
Posté 10 juin 2012 - 06:05
Guest_Nizaris1_*
Guest_Nizaris1_*
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The same should be said to Meredith and the Templars...chucking Lyrium and damage their brain, then steal Lyrium Idol become crazy then turned into stone, no matter how many times the dwarves warned about lyrium they don't care, go on hating mages, rape and abuse them, the result is the mages hate them, turn into blood magic and making a mess, then everything become a mess...it is all Templar and Chantry fault
Modifié par Nizaris1, 10 juin 2012 - 06:08 .
#21
Posté 10 juin 2012 - 07:33
hussey 92
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I'm gonna just agree with everything The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote
#22
Posté 10 juin 2012 - 06:23
ThePhoenixKing
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The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Oy.....Nyoka wrote...
He spends the game advocating against blood magic and yelling at Meredith for seeing blood mages everywhere... turns out he is a blood mage and a personal friend of Dr. Frankenstein. He's nothing but a little petty liar who only wants power and will lie and kill to get it. When the hard times come, he won't hesitate to give in to the demons and become a monster to get his way.
That is actually not correct at all. Context matters here and what you're doing is not only focusing on the bad elements, but exaggerating them to the point of being untruthful.
1) He's about to commit what amounts to suicide. He has no reason to lie at this point, because there's nothing left to lie for. He says that he has never practiced blood magic in the past. Again, no reason to lie anymore.
2) Yes he was a friend to Quentin, but the exact circumstances of that friendship are not revealed. However, we can assert that because he was afraid to tell Meredith about Quentin, he did not support Quentin's killing spree. He didn't tell Meredith about what Quentin was doing not because he wanted him free and able to kill, but because Meredith would've used it as further evidence to oppress the Mages -- for acts they had nothing to do with -- or to call for the RoA. Had he not been afraid of what she would've done, he would've told her. And might I add that although we don't see him having taken any action towards stopping Quentin, that doesn't mean it didn't happen?
He may not have reported to Meredith, but that doesn't mean he didn't report it to Thrask. That doesn't mean he didn't report it to the City Guard, or go out on his own with some Mages trying to find Quentin.
Hell, that might explain why he was with Mages outside of the Gallows during Act II's climax. Perhaps because he was trying to take down Quentin, on his own, without risking the lives of the entire Circle by bringing it to Meredith the Nutjob. Sure Hawke already did that, but maybe Orsino hadn't heard about that.
3) He cares nothing for power. Read his codex. He took the position of First Enchanter because no one else was stepping up to the plate and because the Mages needed an advocate for their well-being. And you see this mindset demonstrated time and time again. First when you meet him in Hightown, where he inquires about his fellow mages and is distraught that they were killed. Secondly during Act III's beginning. Third during Act III's final quest beginning. And finally when he makes a last ditch attempt to save the Circle by telling Meredith he will help her search the Circle for blood mages.
4) He chooses to become an Abomination for various reasons, none of them having to do with him wanting his way. The first is plot stupidity/gameplay trumping story. The second is because he feels that there is no longer any hope for the Mages, so what's the point in playing fair if the Templars were never interested in fair to begin with. He performs blood magic at that point because he's already being punished for something he had nothing to do with, so he might as well fight with everything he can. He's not doing it because he wants to. He's doing it because the Templars made him into a monster, and he figured he'd show them the monster they made. It doesn't prove the Templars right. If anything, it proves the Mages right.
5) He doesn't support blood magic, except in that final instance because the Templars don't care about innocence, fairness, or justice. Merely bigotry, hatred, and paranoia. The fact that he thinks the rebellion Thrask was creating had Mages practicing blood magic lends itself to the idea that he doesn't support it -- calling it the worst possible conclusion. This is further made apparent by when he asks Meredith to stop the RoA where he would then help her find any blood mages, so long as all of the Mages weren't punished for an act they had nothing to do with -- meaning Anders' spectacle.
Meredith on the other hand shoots down the idea because she wants to appease a hypothetical mob -- and considering Anders set his bomb to go off around midnight (per his Rivalry path dialogue) there's no evidence a mob had formed. If it's midnight, everyone's asleep. If they're asleep and are woken up, they won't know what's going on. Ergo, they won't know who did it. They might just as well think it's the Qunari again rather then Mages.
It's common sense.
And additionally, I highly doubt that any mob where its citizenry were actively opposing the Templars and supporting the Mages would call for the Mages to be punished for something they didn't do.
First rule of being a ruling person: Never appease and cater to a mob's desires. It makes them grow bolder and makes problems worse down the line.
Considering his codex says he'd do anything to protect his charges, I could easily see him giving himself over if he felt he couldn't keep his connection to Quentin secret any longer and would be considered a blood mage.
Whether Meredith would've acted rationally if he had done so, I highly doubt. I'd think she'd still say the Circle was corrupt, despite the fact that by Orsino's act of surrendering he would've shown that the Circle isn't corrupt.And Meredith, the one supposedly paranoid and evil, turns out to be right - blood magic will corrupt,it will break through, and nothing is safe around it, not even the theoretically most responsible and trustworthy mages, like Orsino. "Meredith-The-Monster" was right all along. Probably not right about her solution -that's why she's an enemy, too-, but absolutely right about the problem.
This is deliberately ignoring the fact that if you push a mage into a corner, punish them unfairly and/or abuse them, and don't consider them people then they will turn into the very animals you've painted them as.
Orsino wasn't corrupted by blood magic. He was corrupted by fear and paranoia. The same fear and paranoia Mages have to live with day in and day out.
I mean, if you're going to say Meredith was right then you have to conversely say Orsino was right. You have to say that everyone opposed to Meredith was right, because they all claimed she was insane. Thrask, Hawke, Orsino, etc.
And considering she acquired the broken lyrium idol in Act II -- which we're told is more potent broken then intact -- I think that at that moment she was immediately lost to it. Which points to everything being her fault.
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I still find how Bioware handled Orsino to be one of the absolute worst portrayals I've seen for writing. And that's saying something. The fact that they wanted another boss battle just cuz really sort of kills Orsino's character, because it just doesn't seem realistic for him to go off the deep end so spontaneously.
I can understand why he goes off the deep end, but how it's presented is just.... bad.
If Bioware wanted Orsino to be a boss battle, many things would've needed to be done in order to make Orsino have some depth to his person rather then just "GRRRRAAAAAAAHHHH WE AREN'T PEOPLE. WE'RE DATA CONSTRUCTS!"
We are informed of some of these things in-game, but they often go overlooked or are not considered to be the truth of the matter by some people that it ultimately makes it seem like they weren't given their due. Others are just what I think should've happened:
1) Interaction with him starting at Act 1, so we get to know him better. In this, we find that part of why he's done so well in the Circle is due to him having an eidetic memory.
2) Establishment that he and Quentin were friends when Starkhaven's Circle was around and Quentin was sane-ish. Quentin had to have been close to the edge prior to his wife's death, and his wife's death was what sent him over the edge..
3) A clear portrayal of him that doesn't make him out to be a vile criminal that supported Quentin, but rather someone that found himself complicit in a series of crimes he neither knew about nor supported. But because of Meredith's nature, he couldn't report it to her or any Templars under her command -- because the majority of the Templars under the command of Meredith are like-minded and would report to her immediately.
4) Orsino going Harvestino is only used in the pro-Templar side of things, where his fall into the depths of insanity makes sense in the context of things.
5) The Harvester is used in the pro-mage path only if Orsino is spared -- as should've been done in the first place -- and a Pride Demon comes through a tear in the Veil. This Pride Demon then says "Here's..... Johnny!" -- I would've liked that to be there -- and proceeds to possess some mook mage.
Dead or alive, it doesn't matter. But it's a mook mage. The possessed Mage then proceeds to slash his wrists and perform the Harvester ritual. Since the ritual is blood magic and the arcane is eternal in the Fade -- as evidenced by Torpor's remarks during Night Terrors -- it makes sense for a Demon to know how it's done.
6) If the pro-Mage Hawke decides to fight Orsino after Orsino feels compelled to confess that he knew Quentin -- because he might die and he doesn't want a guilty conscience -- then Orsino would fight Hawke as a very powerful Force Mage, moving throughout the area in the Gallows and attacking Hawke.
Not just the area where we do fight the Harvester, but the entire visible area.
He'd fight Hawke not because he wants to, but because he feels the need to spread the word of what Meredith had done and he thinks that he can't die. Or something like that.
He'd even fight similarly to Xigbar in Kingdom Hearts II: , but he'd also use talents that are available to the player's Force Mage spec.
The bar has official been set. Very well done, mate.
As I understand it, the Orsino boss battle was a last-minute thing required by the gameplay side of things, not the writers, but you're right, it doesn't really work as well as it should have. It was just one of those things then that required more care and detail give to it; if they had laid the seeds for it far sooner and more frequently throughout the game, that would have made it much better (and given the player an actual reason to support the Templars in the final battle beyond getting the achievement).
If nothing else, they should have had the Harvester!Orsino actually fight some Templars, you know, one of the reasons he turned into it to begin with. That would have also presented an additional kink to the boss battle, Orsino is killing Templars and reducing the fire being sent your way, but at the same time is absorbing their flesh Prototype-style and becoming all the stronger.
#23
Posté 10 juin 2012 - 07:22
Gervaise
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Agree with most of the above reasoning. The fact is that whilst a case could be made for the Harvester transformation if you support the templars, if you support Orsino and the mages it is just a bit of programming. It makes no sense at all. You have just beaten off the first wave of templars. On every single one of my play throughs supporting the mages not one single mage dies in that first encounter. The only ones who do are in the cut scene, not in the hall itself. Yet suddenly Orsino looks around, sees dead bodies and flips. At the very least they should not have had Hawke in the same area when the templars attack. They should have had Orsino telling you to go in search of mages to save and then meet at a rendeavouz point. That way Hawke could successfully rescue mages but Orsino not be aware of it and think that he is the last one standing. Alternatively, he could confess his complicity with Quentin and then if Hawke attacks him, he transforms, or if Hawke refuses to attack him, transforms because he wants Hawke to kill him.
But as the game currently stands, on the mage run through, Orsino effectively turns on his ally and the surviving mages for no good reason, while Meredith is nowhere in sight. He may be the least developed character but you have seen enough of him up to then to feel it is not in keeping.
A side issue, I found the Harvester battle the most tedious I have ever had. Fighting Orsino as a fully powered up rational blood mage would have been much more challenging and satisfying.
But as the game currently stands, on the mage run through, Orsino effectively turns on his ally and the surviving mages for no good reason, while Meredith is nowhere in sight. He may be the least developed character but you have seen enough of him up to then to feel it is not in keeping.
A side issue, I found the Harvester battle the most tedious I have ever had. Fighting Orsino as a fully powered up rational blood mage would have been much more challenging and satisfying.
#24
Posté 10 juin 2012 - 07:43
ThePhoenixKing
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Gervaise wrote...
Agree with most of the above reasoning. The fact is that whilst a case could be made for the Harvester transformation if you support the templars, if you support Orsino and the mages it is just a bit of programming. It makes no sense at all. You have just beaten off the first wave of templars. On every single one of my play throughs supporting the mages not one single mage dies in that first encounter. The only ones who do are in the cut scene, not in the hall itself. Yet suddenly Orsino looks around, sees dead bodies and flips. At the very least they should not have had Hawke in the same area when the templars attack. They should have had Orsino telling you to go in search of mages to save and then meet at a rendeavouz point. That way Hawke could successfully rescue mages but Orsino not be aware of it and think that he is the last one standing. Alternatively, he could confess his complicity with Quentin and then if Hawke attacks him, he transforms, or if Hawke refuses to attack him, transforms because he wants Hawke to kill him.
But as the game currently stands, on the mage run through, Orsino effectively turns on his ally and the surviving mages for no good reason, while Meredith is nowhere in sight. He may be the least developed character but you have seen enough of him up to then to feel it is not in keeping.
A side issue, I found the Harvester battle the most tedious I have ever had. Fighting Orsino as a fully powered up rational blood mage would have been much more challenging and satisfying.
Very well said. I encountered the same thing as you; my characters were so powerful, and since the entire party was there, the relatively pathetic number of Templars busting into the central chamber were all butchered before they could lay a finger on a single mage. That also contributed to the ease of the Orsino battle as well; when you have seven Level 27 characters all whaling the tar out of him, he quickly becomes a giant, fleshy punching bag, and one that poses very little threat, at that.
Here's an idea, instead of having the mages all get killed at the gates, and Hawke and company only stepping in to defend the central chamber, how about instead the battle starts off with the player trying to hold off the Templars as they assault the gates? Three increasingly powerful waves of Templars would atttack the player, a challenge made more difficult by mages falling back to alternate defensive positions deeper inside the Gallows. Then, of course, a mage arrives, speaking of Templar inflitrators behind their defenses and killing every mage they see. forcing the player to fall back to the central chamber, where they discover many mages have already fallen in their absence (at which point, the Orsino battle commences from there)
