Okay, I'm not a religion expert, but I have studied the humanities quite a lot. Some Christian religions are, as far as I know, the only major religious organizations that require their clergy to be celibate, or at least not married. The reason for this is because they wish to emulate Jesus, who they don't recognize as ever having had a wife.
It's funny, because just about every other religion (Islam, Judaism, etc..) not only permits its clergy people to marry, but actively encourages them to do so.
That's real life. Now what about DA life? Obviously the Chantry is meant to be like the Catholic church, but no explanation is given as to why it requires its clergy to be celibate.
After all, their "Christ", Andraste, was married, both to God himself and to a mortal man... so if she was married, obviously she wasn't celibate...
Why does the Chantry scorn sex?
So ridiculous. IMO, oppressing people's sexuality and natural urges is unhealthy and dangerous. Whether you're in a video game or in the real world.
Chantry clergy and chastity.
Débuté par
TheButterflyEffect
, juin 08 2012 07:50
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#2
Posté 08 juin 2012 - 07:56
Wulfram
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I think Andraste was celibate. Hence why her husband was jealous. But I might have got the wrong end of the stick there.
edit: Either way, Maferath isn't exactly a great precedent.
edit: Either way, Maferath isn't exactly a great precedent.
Modifié par Wulfram, 08 juin 2012 - 07:58 .
#3
Posté 08 juin 2012 - 08:20
R2s Muse
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Andraste supposedly had sons, which doesn't sound terribly celibate to me. But she was also the spiritual wife of the Maker. The clergy's celibacy today may be based on that, since they're supposed to be married to Andraste or something.
#4
Posté 08 juin 2012 - 08:20
whykikyouwhy
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Requiring a vow of celibacy is not the same as "scorning" sex. Where is it that the Chantry is shown to have disdain towards sexual matters?
#5
Posté 08 juin 2012 - 08:25
MKDAWUSS
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R2s Muse wrote...
Andraste supposedly had sons, which doesn't sound terribly celibate to me. But she was also the spiritual wife of the Maker. The clergy's celibacy today may be based on that, since they're supposed to be married to Andraste or something.
I thought Maferath (without a mention of Andi) was the one who had kids... It's been a while since I've dug through the codex entries and all that
#6
Posté 08 juin 2012 - 08:27
brushyourteeth
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Any time you compare a fantasy-setting religion to a real life one you're kind of treading on thin ice, but I interpreted Andraste as more of a Virgin Mary-meets-Joan of Arc type figure.
The main reason why any religion asks their monks/nuns/priests etc. to be celibate has more to do with the heart than it does the body. Abstaining not just from sex but from specific human attachment allows one to live their live completely devoted to their religion, free from the constraints and responsibilities of family. In this case having a husband or wife wouldn't be considered sinful, but it would mean that your heart is divided between your duty to god and your love of this person.
By being a mother to no one, a Chantry Mother can be mother to all. She doesn't have real biological children, so her duty is to love and protect everyone in her care. She has no husband, so the Maker is the owner of her heart. It's a sacrifice a brother or sister makes to please the Maker and show their devotion to his service. Breaking that vow wouldn't be considered a sin so much as it'd be considered a shame, since they're giving up their service to the Maker for something more attractive, but less noble.
At least that's the way I understand it.
The main reason why any religion asks their monks/nuns/priests etc. to be celibate has more to do with the heart than it does the body. Abstaining not just from sex but from specific human attachment allows one to live their live completely devoted to their religion, free from the constraints and responsibilities of family. In this case having a husband or wife wouldn't be considered sinful, but it would mean that your heart is divided between your duty to god and your love of this person.
By being a mother to no one, a Chantry Mother can be mother to all. She doesn't have real biological children, so her duty is to love and protect everyone in her care. She has no husband, so the Maker is the owner of her heart. It's a sacrifice a brother or sister makes to please the Maker and show their devotion to his service. Breaking that vow wouldn't be considered a sin so much as it'd be considered a shame, since they're giving up their service to the Maker for something more attractive, but less noble.
At least that's the way I understand it.
Modifié par brushyourteeth, 08 juin 2012 - 08:28 .
#7
Posté 08 juin 2012 - 08:29
brushyourteeth
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Of course the Templars are allowed to hang out at the Rose, so who knows, right? 
#8
Posté 08 juin 2012 - 08:30
R2s Muse
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Dunno. Couldn't find it immediately in a codex. It was on Andraste's wiki page, with a David Gaider forum reference to a missing page (of course).MKDAWUSS wrote...
R2s Muse wrote...
Andraste supposedly had sons, which doesn't sound terribly celibate to me. But she was also the spiritual wife of the Maker. The clergy's celibacy today may be based on that, since they're supposed to be married to Andraste or something.
I thought Maferath (without a mention of Andi) was the one who had kids... It's been a while since I've dug through the codex entries and all that
"Andraste had several sons but they are all believed to have died in the
civil wars that tore the south apart after Maferath's death. There have
been many claimants in the centuries since, saying they were descendants
of survivors, but the Chantry has disavowed each of them. To date there
are no known legitimate heirs to Andraste's blood."
#9
Posté 08 juin 2012 - 08:36
Wulfram
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She was married to Maferath first, which I would assume is when she bore her sons.
As Maferath says in the Gauntlet of the Urn of Sacred Ashes, "I loved her too, but what man can compare with a God?".
As Maferath says in the Gauntlet of the Urn of Sacred Ashes, "I loved her too, but what man can compare with a God?".
#10
Posté 08 juin 2012 - 08:36
hoorayforicecream
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The purpose of the vow isn't to scorn or denigrate sex, but to show a physical as well as spiritual dedication to the Maker. If all chantry sisters are married to the Maker, then they keep their vows by not having extramarital affairs. It's just respecting the marriage.
#11
Posté 08 juin 2012 - 08:39
Wulfram
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Though the "married to the maker" stuff does make Sebastian's vows sort of interesting.
#12
Posté 08 juin 2012 - 08:42
mousestalker
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Just FYI, Buddhists and Hindus have recognized celibate communities and practitioners. The Dalai Lama for example, is a monk and is therefore supposed to be celibate.
#13
Posté 08 juin 2012 - 08:43
R2s Muse
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Right... my only point being that she had sons, so likely not celibate with Maferath. Likely celibate with the Maker, since that was "spiritual."Wulfram wrote...
She was married to Maferath first, which I would assume is when she bore her sons.
As Maferath says in the Gauntlet of the Urn of Sacred Ashes, "I loved her too, but what man can compare with a God?".
I thought I'd seen the possibility of sons of Andraste elsewhere... but wiki was the only place I could find.
#14
Posté 08 juin 2012 - 09:13
berelinde
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Just a hunch, but I'd say that the Chantry requires the clergy to be celibate for the same reason that the medieval church decided to require celibacy instead of merely strongly recommending it: it avoids distractions from family responsibilities. Also, it avoids complications regarding legacies and inheritance.
#15
Posté 08 juin 2012 - 09:16
brushyourteeth
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berelinde wrote...
Just a hunch, but I'd say that the Chantry requires the clergy to be celibate for the same reason that the medieval church decided to require celibacy instead of merely strongly recommending it: it avoids distractions from family responsibilities. Also, it avoids complications regarding legacies and inheritance.
LOL - yep, also meaning "avoids us having to provide for your brat"
#16
Posté 08 juin 2012 - 09:27
TEWR
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R2s Muse wrote...
Right... my only point being that she had sons, so likely not celibate with Maferath. Likely celibate with the Maker, since that was "spiritual."Wulfram wrote...
She was married to Maferath first, which I would assume is when she bore her sons.
As Maferath says in the Gauntlet of the Urn of Sacred Ashes, "I loved her too, but what man can compare with a God?".
I thought I'd seen the possibility of sons of Andraste elsewhere... but wiki was the only place I could find.
I recall that mentioning of descendants of Andraste as well.
Also, the female clergy of the Chantry are required to be celibate. They're in a marriage to the Maker, IIRC.
#17
Posté 09 juin 2012 - 12:14
Corker
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R2s Muse wrote...
Right... my only point being that she had sons, so likely not celibate with Maferath. Likely celibate with the Maker, since that was "spiritual."
Like Margery Kempe, she probably had a typical marriage with Maferath until her spiritual calling came, at which point she may (or may not) have abjured relations with him.
#18
Posté 09 juin 2012 - 01:11
Shadow of Light Dragon
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TheButterflyEffect wrote...
Oh, you're trolling again, I see.
#19
Posté 09 juin 2012 - 04:04
hussey 92
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Would she be their christ or their virgin mary (minus the virgin part)?TheButterflyEffect wrote...
After all, their "Christ", Andraste, was married, both to God himself and to a mortal man... so if she was married, obviously she wasn't celibate...
#20
Posté 09 juin 2012 - 04:08
wowpwnslol
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brushyourteeth wrote...
Any time you compare a fantasy-setting religion to a real life one you're kind of treading on thin ice, but I interpreted Andraste as more of a Virgin Mary-meets-Joan of Arc type figure.
The main reason why any religion asks their monks/nuns/priests etc. to be celibate has more to do with the heart than it does the body. Abstaining not just from sex but from specific human attachment allows one to live their live completely devoted to their religion, free from the constraints and responsibilities of family. In this case having a husband or wife wouldn't be considered sinful, but it would mean that your heart is divided between your duty to god and your love of this person.
By being a mother to no one, a Chantry Mother can be mother to all. She doesn't have real biological children, so her duty is to love and protect everyone in her care. She has no husband, so the Maker is the owner of her heart. It's a sacrifice a brother or sister makes to please the Maker and show their devotion to his service. Breaking that vow wouldn't be considered a sin so much as it'd be considered a shame, since they're giving up their service to the Maker for something more attractive, but less noble.
At least that's the way I understand it.
What about contraception? They get to have sex and be "devoted". Kill two birds with one stone, I say.
#21
Posté 09 juin 2012 - 05:25
brushyourteeth
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If you'd be cool with sharing your husband or wife with someone else as long as they used contraception, I guess that makes perfect sense.wowpwnslol wrote...
brushyourteeth wrote...
Any time you compare a fantasy-setting religion to a real life one you're kind of treading on thin ice, but I interpreted Andraste as more of a Virgin Mary-meets-Joan of Arc type figure.
The main reason why any religion asks their monks/nuns/priests etc. to be celibate has more to do with the heart than it does the body. Abstaining not just from sex but from specific human attachment allows one to live their live completely devoted to their religion, free from the constraints and responsibilities of family. In this case having a husband or wife wouldn't be considered sinful, but it would mean that your heart is divided between your duty to god and your love of this person.
By being a mother to no one, a Chantry Mother can be mother to all. She doesn't have real biological children, so her duty is to love and protect everyone in her care. She has no husband, so the Maker is the owner of her heart. It's a sacrifice a brother or sister makes to please the Maker and show their devotion to his service. Breaking that vow wouldn't be considered a sin so much as it'd be considered a shame, since they're giving up their service to the Maker for something more attractive, but less noble.
At least that's the way I understand it.
What about contraception? They get to have sex and be "devoted". Kill two birds with one stone, I say.
Seriously, though - it isn't sex or romantic love that's the problem. It's having pursuits that fulfill a need that the Maker or whatever should be enough to fill. Not that anyone else taking a husband or wife is sinful, but that being a Chantry brother or sister is a special calling that requires a specific type of devotion and sacrifice (no sex, no romance). And once you've made that vow, you don't break it. That's why Sebastian's idea of a "chaste marriage" seems like a weird and new idea that he's got to get special approval from Elthina for.
Sex with contraception does not equal celibacy.
No sex equals celibacy.
But they take it a step further and don't do romantic relationships, because those typically lead to someone besides the Maker being #1 in your life, and they also usually lead to sex. In real-life religions that's important. In the Chantry, who knows if the Maker really cares or pays attention? But to the characters that practice Andrastianism - it's important to them. So they don't seem to cheat the system much. Or at least most of them don't. Or at least they're sneaky about it.
Modifié par brushyourteeth, 09 juin 2012 - 05:26 .
#22
Posté 09 juin 2012 - 05:57
Andraste_Reborn
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Clerical celibacy was not universal/compulsory in the Catholic church until the eleventh century, and the major motivation of those who pushed it was to get rid of rampant nepotism. They didn't want church offices passing from father to son.
Whatever the doctrinal justifications, it may be that the Andrastian Chantry has a similarly practical motivation for not wanting its clergy to have families.
Whatever the doctrinal justifications, it may be that the Andrastian Chantry has a similarly practical motivation for not wanting its clergy to have families.
#23
Posté 09 juin 2012 - 06:55
TheButterflyEffect
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The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
R2s Muse wrote...
Right... my only point being that she had sons, so likely not celibate with Maferath. Likely celibate with the Maker, since that was "spiritual."Wulfram wrote...
She was married to Maferath first, which I would assume is when she bore her sons.
As Maferath says in the Gauntlet of the Urn of Sacred Ashes, "I loved her too, but what man can compare with a God?".
I thought I'd seen the possibility of sons of Andraste elsewhere... but wiki was the only place I could find.
I recall that mentioning of descendants of Andraste as well.
Also, the female clergy of the Chantry are required to be celibate. They're in a marriage to the Maker, IIRC.
Not just female, it also seems to require this of its men as well.
And about the "scorning sex" bit, that's what Alistair implied in the first game.
