27751 réponses à ce sujet

[Wulfram]

It's that completionist mindset that some have that definitely contributes to that. They can't leave an area without trying to do everything possible. I know I felt that way my first time playing Inquisition, for my Inquisitor's after that I realized I had to apply some restraint, for example do the side missions I can and come back when I'm ready to do the others.

Its not just completionism, though, its also how the story presents the quests.

If you give the player a whole bunch of immediate, urgent problems right in front of the them, and have the main quest be some meeting with ill defined benefits off in another country, then its unsurprising if the player puts the main quest on the backburner. And the way the Hinterlands is designed, completing quests will tend to lead to you encountering more quests, so there's never really a moment when it doesn't feel like you're abandoning someone to go to hob nob with the Chantry in Val Royeaux.

The other problem is previous RPG precedent says that you should always do the Main Quest last because you never know when side content will be locked off - the "Priority" designation in ME3 was rather ironic in that regard. I mean, the Hinterlands is in many ways reminiscent of Lothering in DAO, and not exploring Lothering before completing main quests could lead to you missing two companions.

[BioFan (Official)]

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Optional is fine.

Also fine are rumours of Remnant "treasures" or possibly accompanying scientific digs at one's discretion.

 

If I remember correctly, Laidlaw said he was surprised that gamers explored the "vast areas" and didn't plan for that. An annoying thing to say since he and others stressed the vastness of DA:I.

 

Since ME:A is massive, according to Bio, then let's hope the game designers will skirt the DA:I pitfall and actually plan for gamers to explore in a non boring capacity. Simply exploring with a Mako will soon make it boring, regardless of the vistas ahead.

 

those "rumors" came from the survey "leak" which still isn't totally proven legit yet. However, I agree that there needs to be some interesting stuff, or incentive to explore. Nothing power points related. 

 

 

 

I would choose to do it another way.  

 

Remember when they said that enemy forces could invade your camps, take over your strongholds in DA:I?   Remember how that never ever happened?  For me, at least. 

 

• Have a certain number of optional objectives
• Once you take them over you have 16 hours until they are fair game.
• Once they are fair game, /rnd 100 with each mark being 25% every two hours (or mark).  So, 16 hours 0%, 18 hours 25%, 20 hours 50%, 22 hours 75% and then cap it at 75%. 
• The percentage chance is the enemy's chance at taking it over. 
• So, then, when you come back to the game, you find that say half of your optional objectives have been taken over.  Of course, this all assumes that you can log into the game with your strike team and have the multiplayer be drop in/drop out.

 

Now, it would kind'a suck if I logged in a week after being away and I found out that I had 32 optional missions that had all been taken over by enemy forces.  There, I think I would do raids (something bigger with more hp, hits harder, more synch kills, etc) and divide that number by three.  Say that they took over about 10 of your areas and that solidified their power base.

 

Just planting seeds.

 

 

Well the thing with a lot of the early Inquisition development promises/hints from the devs were things they were able to do, but had to cut out due to old gen not being able to do it. Remember how different Crestwood is from that PAX demo? Most of that wasn't able to be done on old gen, so they had to take it out. With Andromeda exclusively next gen, I'd expect a few more features. 

[Catastrophy]

Its not just completionism, though, its also how the story presents the quests.

If you give the player a whole bunch of immediate, urgent problems right in front of the them, and have the main quest be some meeting with ill defined benefits off in another country, then its unsurprising if the player puts the main quest on the backburner. And the way the Hinterlands is designed, completing quests will tend to lead to you encountering more quests, so there's never really a moment when it doesn't feel like you're abandoning someone to go to hob nob with the Chantry in Val Royeaux.

The other problem is previous RPG precedent says that you should always do the Main Quest last because you never know when side content will be locked off - the "Priority" designation in ME3 was rather ironic in that regard. I mean, the Hinterlands is in many ways reminiscent of Lothering in DAO, and not exploring Lothering before completing main quests could lead to you missing two companions.

Yea, bassically this. How would I know in a first playthrough how accessing regions is structured. You can't simply forget your metagaming experience unless you decide so deliberately.

[DragonRacer]

I'm just thinking, is 80 hours of exploration supposed to sound like a bad thing? Exploration is my favorite, so 80 hours of that sounds awesome to me!

 

Of course, I also enjoy collecting things, which reading posts here leads me to believe is strange. But until action/adventure platformers make a comeback, I will take as many of those elements in my RPGs as I can, dang it! Now excuse me while I keep refreshing the Psychonauts 2 campaign page (98% funded!)

 

You are not alone on that, at least. I feel the same.

[CronoDragoon]

It would be strange for people to have the same expectations for Andromeda regarding exploration as the Dragon Age series.

Space exploration is a fundamentally different landscape than high fantasy. In high fantasy, you can and should populate your world with a variety of interesting characters and situations. In high fantasy, compelling content comes from NPCs and the dramatic situations that arise from them. In space, the environment, exploration, and the unknown are antagonistic forces in and of themselves, and navigating lands devoid of sentient life plays a huge role in the dramatic tension of said narratives.

Interstellar provides a good example of the mix I think we can expect from Andromeda. The ocean world is an example of the protagonists coming up against The Environment as an antagonist, while the ice planet is an example of dramatic tension fueled by character drama. I expect both from Andromeda, but I also expect to hear whining about how every world isn't populated by NPCs, which I feel is an unfair expectation given the premise.

What BioWare could do is make it clear at the start whether the planet has sentient life, so players know what to expect. Then players who only value character-driven situations can skip worlds that focus on the exploratory aspect of a space narrative.

[goishen]

Well the thing with a lot of the early Inquisition development promises/hints from the devs were things they were able to do, but had to cut out due to old gen not being able to do it. Remember how different Crestwood is from that PAX demo? Most of that wasn't able to be done on old gen, so they had to take it out. With Andromeda exclusively next gen, I'd expect a few more features. 

 

 

That's true, and I hadn't thought of that.

[gottaloveme]

I can go for exploration just so as it's not just a collection hunt. Give us something to find that goes towards the story and not just medallions or bottles of wine.

[NKnight7]

I'm really excited to explore the galaxy in Andromeda, I just hope that there's more exciting things to do on the planets, as others have said that can be done with lowering the amount of collection quests. What exactly did the bottles of Thedas do in Inquisition? In all of my playthroughs I don't think I've ever figured it out.

[ZipZap2000]

Exploration is great so long as you feel like there's something out there. It has to feel worth it in terms of reveals, revelations and rewards.

Vaults have the most potential, if they can tie them to a bigger picture. Enter the Pyramid, negotiate traps, kill sentinels, solve the puzzle, steal the treasure and escape through a hidden door in the nick of time. After solving the clues to find the place to begin with of course.

[Awkward Octopus]

I see the things like bottles as being a kind of reward for doing the exploring you already would be doing. It doesn't give you anything important, because then people who don't want to collect them would feel obligated to do so and be annoyed if they don't like doing it.

 

There certainly should be more important incentives for exploring, like the suggested puzzle-locked vaults or additional story elements or shiny loot, but I don't think the less important collections are detrimental. They're just for fun or for codex entries, etc.

[CronoDragoon]

I'm really excited to explore the galaxy in Andromeda, I just hope that there's more exciting things to do on the planets, as others have said that can be done with lowering the amount of collection quests. What exactly did the bottles of Thedas do in Inquisition? In all of my playthroughs I don't think I've ever figured it out.

 

Why does anyone hoard bottles of wine? To show off their wine cellar!

[Sartoz]

I see the things like bottles as being a kind of reward for doing the exploring you already would be doing. It doesn't give you anything important, because then people who don't want to collect them would feel obligated to do so and be annoyed if they don't like doing it.

 

There certainly should be more important incentives for exploring, like the suggested puzzle-locked vaults or additional story elements or shiny loot, but I don't think the less important collections are detrimental. They're just for fun or for codex entries, etc.

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True.

One major issue with puzzles, though, is that some gamers get stuck. Add the possibility that the mission is critical or semi-critical to the main story arc and you just paid 80$ for a game you can no longer finish. Incentives for exploration is key. However, I believe that making exploration the main focus is a poor man's way to develop ME:A.  What I rather see is a focus on the following.

 

For example:

A game's component parts such as: animation, motion capture, art direction, attention to detail, dialogue and world design should match TW3's. Combine those individual pieces and the game comes to life. Also, across the cluster, characters should speak with difference accents, varied geography, building styles and decor.  In art direction, this scene in TW3 communicates more... without words. http://upschannel.eu...i Reunion.html <___ SPOILER

 

As you say,  exploration properly motivated, can be made choreless.

[pdusen]

One major issue with puzzles, though, is that some gamers get stuck. Add the possibility that the mission is critical or semi-critical to the main story arc and you just paid 80$ for a game you can no longer finish.

You can make the exact same argument about combat, though. Is a game without any challenges worth playing?

Besides, what you describe actually doesn't happen anymore with puzzles. The solution to any puzzle is a Google search away.

[Phoenix_Also_Rises]

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True.
One major issue with puzzles, though, is that some gamers get stuck. Add the possibility that the mission is critical or semi-critical to the main story arc and you just paid 80$ for a game you can no longer finish. Incentives for exploration is key. However, I believe that making exploration the main focus is a poor man's way to develop ME:A. What I rather see is a focus on the following.

For example:
A game's component parts such as: animation, motion capture, art direction, attention to detail, dialogue and world design should match TW3's. Combine those individual pieces and the game comes to life. Also, across the cluster, characters should speak with difference accents, varied geography, building styles and decor. In art direction, this scene in TW3 communicates more... without words. http://upschannel.eu...i Reunion.html <___ SPOILER

As you say, exploration properly motivated, can be made choreless.

I both love and loathe the fact that you made me remember the reunion scene. I don't think I ever bawled at a game this much since Valiant Hearts. Maybe not even then. That was pure brilliance, simple as that (fun fact - one of the best scenes in the books also features no dialogue).

On topic (kind of), I don't completely agree with you on the subject of puzzles and how off-putting they could potentially be. For one, puzzles in games have become ridiculously easy in recent years; I'm not saying every game should be Myst (because no game will ever be Myst ever again, alas), but "turn wheel until click" on the other hand, is a tad too simplistic.

Besides, in this, the day and age of the Internet, there no longer is such thing as "getting stuck" and ragequitting the game until you found that one friend who'd also played it or that one gaming magazine which featured a walkthrough (oh gods I've gotten old). Every imaginable bit of information is right there at your fingertips (and not in the local library, which was the only building in the 10-mile radius with a working dial-up connection). Personally, I would welcome more puzzles and puzzle variety. And by that I don't mean "look how many colors I can paint these Towers of Hanoi"

[KaosGoneRogue]

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True.
One major issue with puzzles, though, is that some gamers get stuck. Add the possibility that the mission is critical or semi-critical to the main story arc and you just paid 80$ for a game you can no longer finish. Incentives for exploration is key. However, I believe that making exploration the main focus is a poor man's way to develop ME:A. What I rather see is a focus on the following.

For example:
A game's component parts such as: animation, motion capture, art direction, attention to detail, dialogue and world design should match TW3's. Combine those individual pieces and the game comes to life. Also, across the cluster, characters should speak with difference accents, varied geography, building styles and decor. In art direction, this scene in TW3 communicates more... without words. http://upschannel.eu...i Reunion.html <___ SPOILER

As you say, exploration properly motivated, can be made choreless.

^ That W3 scene is so breathtaking, everything about it was masterfully composed (of course the whole game is aswell) CDPR crafted a very intimate and well polished game that will defnietly stand the test of time.

[ZipZap2000]

TW3 is a different beast to ME. I expect a lot more from bioware than that. I have yet to to feel compelled to do anything in TW beyond expanding my card collection. In fact Gwent became the driving force for exploration and story completion. I literally feel as though I'm wandering around an open world game with nothing all that exciting to do and have yet to finish a single zone.

I made it to Skellige under levelled looking for Gwent cards and now I just stare at the cover with a bit of disappointment. I enjoyed DA:I much more but no longer play it having felt like I've seen it all.

Exploration cant be about reading text, inferred greater meaning and pretty scenery. It needs substance. Skyrims exploration could leave you in the service of any one of a number of evil gods, gain new powers, ancient stories you provide the physical last chapter to appear, within catacombs, caves and ancient temples.


TL;DR

Mystery, intellect, romance, grandeur, power, conquest and reward.

Thats exploration.

[Awkward Octopus]

All of the above are important points. I was just talking about how collecting knick knacks doesn't have to be thought of as a chore, because of course there are reasons other than that to explore a large environment! And every player is going to have different reasons they like to explore, so if BioWare is making a game focused on exploration, they have to offer as many of those things as they can so as many players as possible are happy.

 

As mentioned, some look for loot, some for story, some for lore and incredible vistas, etc., etc. And, of course, the setting has to actually be interesting. But Mass Effect is a different setting from something like TW3 in terms of environment. It's space, there should be vast, unpopulated wilderness involved (not everywhere, but a significant amount, in my opinion). But yes, Art Direction is key (and I would love them to update their mo-cap library, but I'm not holding my breath).

 

And I agree with others about puzzles - people who get stuck can just look it up if they need to, don't take puzzles away from me! I love them! I'll take environmental puzzle solving over combat any day! (<- Unpopular opinion, I know)

[agonis]

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True.

One major issue with puzzles, though, is that some gamers get stuck. Add the possibility that the mission is critical or semi-critical to the main story arc and you just paid 80$ for a game you can no longer finish. Incentives for exploration is key. However, I believe that making exploration the main focus is a poor man's way to develop ME:A.  What I rather see is a focus on the following.

 

For example:

A game's component parts such as: animation, motion capture, art direction, attention to detail, dialogue and world design should match TW3's. Combine those individual pieces and the game comes to life. Also, across the cluster, characters should speak with difference accents, varied geography, building styles and decor.  In art direction, this scene in TW3 communicates more... without words. http://upschannel.eu...i Reunion.html <___ SPOILER

 

As you say,  exploration properly motivated, can be made choreless.

 

The Reunion scene was beautifully made.

Did you notice the parallel to the fairy tale "Snow White"? (there were seven dwarfs on that cursed island and Ciri lay in a death like sleep)

[goishen]

Besides, in this, the day and age of the Internet, there no longer is such thing as "getting stuck" and ragequitting the game until you found that one friend who'd also played it or that one gaming magazine which featured a walkthrough (oh gods I've gotten old). Every imaginable bit of information is right there at your fingertips (and not in the local library, which was the only building in the 10-mile radius with a working dial-up connection). Personally, I would welcome more puzzles and puzzle variety. And by that I don't mean "look how many colors I can paint these Towers of Hanoi"

 

 

Actually, yes it still is.  MGSV is a prime example for me.  What a piece of dog excrement.  And this is before even reaching Quiet.

 

"We've got reason to believe that SoAndSo has weapon SuchAndSuch that can destroy every living thing on the planet."

 

"Okay, tell me your reasons."

 

"Just reasons boss.  You don't have to know them."

 

Err, what, I'm your boss, and you won't tell me the reasons, you're just gonna drop me off in the middle of Afghanistan. 

 

Great start.

[ElitePinecone]

It's space, there should be vast, unpopulated wilderness involved (not everywhere, but a significant amount, in my opinion). 

 

Just on your point about how different people like different things about exploration: for me, ME1's vast unexplored planets and moons were *far* more interesting and representative of the vibe of space exploration than some of the later games, where we mostly landed on settled outposts. I'd actually prefer huge empty vistas (as long as there was actually some content in there somewhere) over bustling cities and jungles, just because the latter two are something that a lot of other genres do as well. 

 

ME1 was fantastic in putting the player in the shoes of a cosmically-insignificant human exploring truly enormous environments with beautiful skyboxes, alone and unsupported except for their squadmates and the Mako. I'm not saying Andromeda should necessarily do this 100% of the time - it would be cool to explore planets with life, and maybe even villages or cities of sentient civilisations - but if it wants to capture that sense of exploration and discovery, barren planets would be a good place to start.

 

(And barren doesn't mean totally empty, scattered colonies or escape pods or whatever are also great opportunities for environmental storytelling and interesting sidequests.)

[The Loyal Nub]

The collection hunts in DAI where what I hated most about that game. I don't think I have ever gotten all the shards or bottles of wine in hundreds of hours. It was a bore and getting to later levels so you could do some of the dlc seemed to offer a fair amount of tedious grinding. However DAI certainly had entertaining npc's and good politics to keep me entertained. I expect those to two things in the new game.

 

I hope they are taking note of The Witcher. I want some wide open worlds to explore but I also want some interesting side quests that are almost mini-games outside of the main game. I think open worlds are doable but BioWare had better populate them with more things to do that are consequential than they did with Dragon Age: Inquisition.

[Awkward Octopus]

Just on your point about how different people like different things about exploration: for me, ME1's vast unexplored planets and moons were *far* more interesting and representative of the vibe of space exploration than some of the later games, where we mostly landed on settled outposts. I'd actually prefer huge empty vistas (as long as there was actually some content in there somewhere) over bustling cities and jungles, just because the latter two are something that a lot of other genres do as well. 

 

ME1 was fantastic in putting the player in the shoes of a cosmically-insignificant human exploring truly enormous environments with beautiful skyboxes, alone and unsupported except for their squadmates and the Mako. I'm not saying Andromeda should necessarily do this 100% of the time - it would be cool to explore planets with life, and maybe even villages or cities of sentient civilisations - but if it wants to capture that sense of exploration and discovery, barren planets would be a good place to start.

 

(And barren doesn't mean totally empty, scattered colonies or escape pods or whatever are also great opportunities for environmental storytelling and interesting sidequests.)

 

I completely agree with you, all of that is absolutely the sort of thing I'm hoping for in ME:A.

[SNascimento]

ME1 certainly got the barren and lifeless planets realistically.

[Hrungr]

Shay Pomeroy ‏@ShayPomeroy

This is my favourite coffee on the Citadel. #BioWare

 

[Amplitudelol]

ME1 certainly got the barren and lifeless planets realistically.

 

Have you been on a barren and lifeless planet recently for reference?