169 réponses à ce sujet

[zhk3r]

alec1109 wrote...

Master, I seek advise.
Please have a look at my manifest, how do I take shield / barrier out effectively so my singularity could work nicely?
I always prefer a low CD build, at least 160% is required...

I always know human adept has potential...after seeing your video I think I found my way...but in order to play gold, I need a better way to deal with shield.

Haha "Master" 

Use your Carnifex! If the CD is to low, try using either Gear or equipment to help you until you rank it up. If not, use the Hornet. It's a good SMG.

[alec1109]

zhk3r wrote...

alec1109 wrote...

Master, I seek advise.
Please have a look at my manifest, how do I take shield / barrier out effectively so my singularity could work nicely?
I always prefer a low CD build, at least 160% is required...

I always know human adept has potential...after seeing your video I think I found my way...but in order to play gold, I need a better way to deal with shield.

Haha "Master" 

Use your Carnifex! If the CD is to low, try using either Gear or equipment to help you until you rank it up. If not, use the Hornet. It's a good SMG.

But my Hornet is only lv3! I tried it and the CD is low...any alternative smg? or shotgun?

[zhk3r]

alec1109 wrote...

But my Hornet is only lv3! I tried it and the CD is low...any alternative smg? or shotgun?

Phalanx is good. If not Hornet I'd go for the Tempest. I can't stand the Locust.

[Diablerist666]

Phalanx for now.

[Lexa_D]

xROLLxTIDEx wrote...

It is the Asari Adept lovers who claim that their girl is the "abo****e" best.  

Now that was fun

[Gamemako]

xROLLxTIDEx wrote...

Shockwave has a 4 second more cooldown than throw?  
--With recharge speed: Shockwave 2.19s CD, Throw 1.04s CD = Shockwave has a CD that is 1.15 seconds longer
--Without recharge: Shockwave 2.46s CD, Throw 1.23s CD = Shockwave has a CD that is 1.23 seconds longer.
Conclusion:  Shockwave has a cooldown that is 1.15-1.23 seconds longer, not 4 seconds longer.

Wow... just wow. Did you even read? Holy hell. I said right there that it is 1.23 seconds with 200% CD bonus, and I used 1.23 seconds in my calculations. 4s is the base cooldown. You'll notice that 4/(1 + 2.0 + 0.25) = 1.23. The mechanics are in a sticky in this very forum.

But that's all a red herring anyway. If all skills get the same cooldown bonus, then the ratio of the two is identical regardless of any modifier you place on it. If that seems confusing, think of it this way:

(y/x) / (z/x) = y/z (i.e. does not contain x at all)
Now realize that this is the situation that we're currently dealing with.
(W+T damage / [W+T base cooldown / CD modifier]) /  (W+S damage / [W+S base cooldown / CD modifier]) = (W+T damage * W+S base cooldown) / (W+S damage * W+T base cooldown)

Ergo, zero involvement of modifiers unless the CD modifiers are different on different skills. In this case, your cooldown modifier on everything is going to be (1 + 2.0 + 0.25 + other item mod), so it disappears from the ratio.

You're arguing math with an engineer. I tried to use the actual numbers simply to make things easy for you to understand. If you want, I can do everything symbolically. The outcome will be the same. Sorry if you don't like the result.

xROLLxTIDEx wrote...

What happens to your Warp/Throw DPS when you begin to factor in the amount of times that enemies dodge your throw, where they can not dodge shockwave?  Or do you just assume that you have a 100% hit rate with throw?
--Warp>2.46s CD>Throw(dodged)>1.23s CD>Throw(hits)>1.23s CD = BE +100% in 4.92s
--Warp>2.46s CD>Shockwave>2.46s CD = BE + 115% in 4.92s. 
Conclusion: If throw is dodged, the Warp/Throw DPS falls below that of Warp/Shockwave.

Also absolutely, insanely, ridiculously, demonstrably incorrect.

(1) Warp has twice the cooldown of Throw and is the likely candidate to be dodged. If Warp impacts the target, it will generally be stunned long enough that Throw will hit every time.

(2) Shockwave can be dodged, especially if you are beyond 5m from the target. Shockwave has a lower propagation rate and is much more likely to be dodged at longer ranges.

(3) When an enemy dodges shockwave, you lose twice as much time as when he dodges Throw.

xROLLxTIDEx wrote...

Shockwave can not be "dodged" as
shockwave does not "lock-on".  It is cast in a straight line in the
direction you are looking and does not have to travel along the ground.
 It can be angled down through the ground or up through the air.  You
either miss with shockwave or you hit with it.  It never locks on and
enemies do not dodge it

Denying reality does not for a good argument. Do I have to make a video proving this as well? Enemies dodge Shockwave all the damn time. They up and roll or hop out of the way, like any non-instant power. Only time they don't is if they're out of range and move into it during the wave's slow-as-hell propagation.

xROLLxTIDEx wrote...


Furthermore, Shockwave can hit 2 enemies at once where throw can only hit one enemy.
--Warp(target 1)>2.46s CD>Warp(target 2)>2.46s CD>Shockwave(detonate both)>2.46s CD = 2 BE's + 115% in 7.38s
--Warp(target 1)>2.46s CD>Throw(hits)>1.23s CD>Warp(target 2)>2.46s CD>Throw(hits)>1.23s CD =2 BE's +100% in 7.38s
Conclusion:  The HA can prime and detonate 2 BE's + 115% in the exact same amount of time it takes an AA, HS to prime and detonate 2 BE's + 100%

xROLLxTIDEx wrote...


Throw can not detonate 2 biotic explosions in one cast.  Shockwave can.

If and only if those two targets line themselves up and are not close to one another. A shockwave only sets off multiple explosions when different bursts of the Shockwave hit different targets. So you have to have them lined up within 10 meters and not adjacent to one another. You know how often that happens? Blue ****ing moon. Sure as hell not while they're shooting at you, being a squishy human adept.

xROLLxTIDEx wrote...


What about enemies that are killed in 1 Warp/Shockwave cycle where it takes 2 Warp/Throw cycles?
--Warp>2.46s CD>Shockwave>2.46s = dead enemy in 4.92 seconds
--Warp>2.46s>Throw(hits)>1.23s>Warp>2.46s>Throw(hits)>1.23s = dead enemy in 7.38 seconds OR
--Warp>2.46s>Throw(hits)>1.23s>Warp( to finish w/out BE)>2.46s = dead enemy in 6.15 seconds OR
--Warp>2.46s>Throw(hits)>1.23s>Throw (to finish w/out BE)>1.23s = dead enemy in 4.92 seconds

Certainly, but give me an example of such a creature. Technically, W+T puts out lower-damage detonations at a higher rate and is therefore statistically less likely to waste damage on dead targets (assuming random distributions of health), meaning that your argument works better in favor of W+T than W+S. In reality, W+T kills unprotected enemies and W+S does not kill shielded enemies, which means that the reality is also in favor of W+T. W+S doesn't even come close to killing protected enemies -- they have most of their health left. Two W+T will finish the job, and one W+S d

xROLLxTIDEx wrote...


And looking at my quote that you highligted, you didn't even dispute what I said.
--Warp/Shockwave = BE + 115%
--Warp/Throw = BE + 100%
--Reave has no BE multiplyer
Conclusion:  I didn't say anything or make any comparison of the DPS between the HA and the AA as I actually believe the DPS that adepts can put out is more dependent upon the skill of the player using it than anything else.

Fine, let me give an analogy to your statement:

229.4 > 128.1; ergo, Viper I is superior to Hurricane X.

Apply a little common sense here. It's also funny that you pretend like player skill on a class with little potential is somehow going to make up the difference between a player of equal skill on a class with far greater potential. If I give you a class with 250 HP/Barrier, no skills, and 0 weight capacity, you may be able to have success despite this handicap. That does not mean there is no handicap. With players of equal skill, the AA is just plain better than the HA, hands down, no contest, end of story. That's it and that's all. I may be able to rock the **** out of some Reapers with a Drellguard, but you know what? That does not elevate them from their **** status.

xROLLxTIDEx wrote...


Are you going to be another person who is going to say, "Yeah, well that extra 15% bonus to the BE doesn't really matter"??  Would you have the same opinion that 15% doesn't matter if we are talking about a 15% raise on your paycheck??
Conclusion:  I make 100K and that is plenty so I really don't need that extra 15% or that extra 15K.  It is really meaningless.  This is the stance of some people on this forum.  My mind = blown in this regard.

So if I give you a 15% bonus to your paycheck but give you paychecks only half as often, you'll be happy with your pay cut because you're getting 15% more at a time?

It's funny because you're comparing a rate (100K/year) to an absolute number and don't seem to understand the difference at all. Worse, you keep talking about "extra 15%" when the reality is that it's 7.5% over the W+T. If W+T deals 1500 damage, W+S deals 1612.5 -- about a quarter of the damage of one bullet coming out of a Carnifex.

//EDIT: Alright, we just got a 60% range buff. Now we just need propagation rate and radius buffs.

Modifié par Gamemako, 12 juin 2012 - 09:09 .

[kyles3]

Shockwave Power
- Base range increased from 10 to 16 meters

[xROLLxTIDEx]

Gamemako wrote...

Wow... just wow. Did you even read?

I'll admit I mis-read your statement here orginally. 

Gamemako wrote...

Also absolutely, insanely, ridiculously, demonstrably incorrect.

(1) Warp has twice the cooldown of Throw and is the likely candidate to be dodged. If Warp impacts the target, it will generally be stunned long enough that Throw will hit every time.

Warp does not matter if it is dodged in either scenario.  Both classes would have to wait the same dely to warp again so it does not matter. 

Gamemako wrote...

(2) Shockwave can be dodged, especially if you are beyond 5m from the target. Shockwave has a lower propagation rate and is much more likely to be dodged at longer ranges.

(3) When an enemy dodges shockwave, you lose twice as much time as when he dodges Throw.

Denying reality does not for a good argument. Do I have to make a video proving this as well? Enemies dodge Shockwave all the damn time. They up and roll or hop out of the way, like any non-instant power. Only time they don't is if they're out of range and move into it during the wave's slow-as-hell propagation.

If and only if those two targets line themselves up and are not close to one another. A shockwave only sets off multiple explosions when different bursts of the Shockwave hit different targets. So you have to have them lined up within 10 meters and not adjacent to one another. You know how often that happens? Blue ****ing moon. Sure as hell not while they're shooting at you, being a squishy human adept.

Checked your manifest.  You play on PC.  With the Radius 30% upgrade I regularly hit two targets, detonate two targets and enemies do not "dodge" my shockwave.  I'm sorry that your power is broken.

Gamemako wrote...

With players of equal skill, the AA is just plain better than the HA, hands down, no contest, end of story.

Popular opinion does not equal fact. 

Gamemako wrote...

Worse, you keep talking about "extra 15%" when the reality is that it's 7.5% over the W+T. 

//EDIT: Alright, we just got a 60% range buff. Now we just need propagation rate and radius buffs.

And how do you figure that the extra 15% damage from Shockwave's +65% BE is only 7.5% more than Throw's +50 % BE there, mr engineer?

[zhk3r]

Gamemako wrote...

With players of equal skill, the AA is just plain better than the HA, hands down, no contest, end of story.

Well that's just not true.

[Gamemako]

xROLLxTIDEx wrote...

Warp does not matter if it is dodged in either scenario.  Both classes would have to wait the same dely to warp again so it does not matter.

Yes and no. In terms of single damage and maximum DPS, they are identical. Overall, it increases the time by a flat number, not a percentage, so it favors the cycle with longer base time. If 50% of your Warps miss, then your total cycle is increased by 8s base. That would favor W+S. For AA and HS, an increase of more than 4s base is not feasible because you could start with Throw instead of Warp to guarantee a hit with Warp. In terms of DPS, missing favors W+S until you miss one third of the time, at which point the relationship flips again in favor of T+W+T. Therefore, the closest W+S will ever get to W+T in terms of DPS is where the first warp misses 33% of the time. At this point, you have

[(BE*2) / (4+8+4)] / [(BE*2.15) / (4+8+8)] = 1.1628

where BE is the damage from a biotic explosion (it cancels out, so it actually doesn't matter one bit what the damage actually is). W+T deals 16.28% higher DPS than W+S. If you prefer to look at it the other way, W+S deals exactly 86% of the DPS of W+T at maximum. Again, after that, T+W+T is always better. I don't think it is feasible to miss more than 50% of your Warps as he would have to recover from his dodge and dodge a second time to escape a second warp. At that point, the DPS difference is

[(BE*2) / (4+8+4)] / [(BE*2.15) / (8+8+8)] = 1.395

39.5% higher DPS at 50% miss rate. Compared to W+T, W+S would deal 71.667% the DPS. This is obviously a pretty unlikely scenario as you'd have to miss the first Warp every single time. If you miss the first Warp half of the time and connect with every follow-up Warp, the previous situation (i.e. the best for W+S) occurs. Any devation from that is further in favor of W+T. There are precious few situations where you fire off the first power, miss, and then miss again with the second power.

xROLLxTIDEx wrote...

Checked your manifest.  You play on PC.  With the Radius 30% upgrade I regularly hit two targets, detonate two targets and enemies do not "dodge" my shockwave.  I'm sorry that your power is broken.

Perhaps. Or perhaps you should be glad that yours is broken.

xROLLxTIDEx wrote...

Popular opinion does not equal fact.

False uncertainty. Warp is available on both, shields are identical, slight power damage bonus in favor of AA. That leaves Singularity vs. Stasis and Throw vs. Shockwave. In the Stasis vs. Singularity, the differences are pretty small: Stasis affects everything and locks enemies in place, while Singularity floats enemies (making them harder to kill) and doesn't work on shielded enemies. Stasis as a power is just plain better, you'd have to argue that the cooldown difference makes Singularity worth using (while both of them have considerable duration). Then you have Throw vs. Shockwave. Throw = higher DPS, faster detonation, faster propagation, and infinite range. If you are to prefer Shockwave for damage, you have to set off W+S double-detonations 87% of the time -- something that is clearly infeasible. Even after the buff, Throw is just better. That means the AA is batting 1.000 against little-leaguer HA. You could certainly argue that the AA has rubbish heavy melee, but seriously, who is using the HA's slowpoke, low-damage heavy melee in the first place? Its impact is negligible.

xROLLxTIDEx wrote...


And how do you figure that the extra 15% damage from Shockwave's +65% BE is only 7.5% more than Throw's +50 % BE there, mr engineer?

Simple: just add up the bonuses on each. 50% for Warp, 50% for Throw, and 65% for Shockwave. Base BE damage is obviously 100%.

W&T = BE * (1 + 0.5 + 0.5) = 2 * BE
W&S = BE * (1 + 0.5 + 0.65) = 2.15 * BE

W&S/W&T = 2.15/2 = 1.075 -> 7.5% more damage.

Modifié par Gamemako, 12 juin 2012 - 10:52 .

[xROLLxTIDEx]

Gamemako,

Which class is better is a matter of opinion. I respect your opinion that the Asari is better. There is no doubt that there are things that the AA is clearly better at than the HA.

However, it is my opinion that the HA is better than the Asari Adept. I do not care if I am the only one who holds this opinion, I'll go against the majority. I honestly do not even think it is close.

Why I like the Human Adept?

I can control the battlefield. I have a tool for every job, just have to know which one to use when and where. Singularity gives me this control. Singularty + Shockwave that is. I can absolutely lock down large zones on the battlefield. I can do this on gold, with any given team make up on any map. I just have to be smart about how I play. I think singularity is way more versatile and useful than stasis.

If the game is being simulated where the AA is W-T all game and the HA is W-S all game, of course the AA is going to out damage the HA. Warp-Shockwave is not the main attack of the Human Adept. Singularity-Shockwave is. You keep comparing the two classes in a computer program, crunching numbers as if both the AA and the HA sit there in a corner and spam Warp-Throw and Warp-Shockwave, all game as soon as they cool down. DPS is not end all be all in this game and the DPS depends more upon the player than the individual class anyways.

Here's a situation for you; You have 2 or 3 or 4 enemies, roughly 2m from your face. You have no shields. Do you want Shockwave or you want Throw? Throw will hit the first guy, but no worries it has a fast cool down, 1 second, and then you'll be able to throw on the second guy. Stasis bubble? What if you miss? What if it's a group of invisible hunters? Do you feel good about your chances of hitting them?

I have the luxury of playing online, team oriented games with the same group of guys for the past 5-8 years. This is a completely different game when you start looking at it as a team game, a co-op game, like it really is instead of a competition to see who can top the "scoreboard". One thing I've noticed as I've been watching some of my recordings is that I consistently, always move to put myself between the enemies and my teammates, esp the big guy and large masses. I take the aggro, I keep large group of enemies away. I prevent us from ever getting over run. The AA can do more damage over time with a consistent W-T, but the HA hits hard, close, against multiple enemies when you need it to right now and not over ten seconds, all the while keeping other enemies locked up.

You come into every single singularity, human adept thread and talk about how much better the AA is that the HA, when you clearly do not know how to play the HA. Why? Why do you feel the need to push your opinion, that the AA is better than the HA based off criteria that you deem the most important in these threads, when I and the OP and others are just trying to help other people learn how to play this monster of a class, because it can be tough to learn.

Modifié par xROLLxTIDEx, 13 juin 2012 - 12:18 .

[MrWookie47]

xROLLxTIDEx wrote...

Gamemako wrote...

Wow... just wow. Did you even read?

I'll admit I mis-read your statement here orginally. 

Gamemako wrote...

Also absolutely, insanely, ridiculously, demonstrably incorrect.

(1) Warp has twice the cooldown of Throw and is the likely candidate to be dodged. If Warp impacts the target, it will generally be stunned long enough that Throw will hit every time.

Warp does not matter if it is dodged in either scenario.  Both classes would have to wait the same dely to warp again so it does not matter. 

Gamemako wrote...

(2) Shockwave can be dodged, especially if you are beyond 5m from the target. Shockwave has a lower propagation rate and is much more likely to be dodged at longer ranges.

(3) When an enemy dodges shockwave, you lose twice as much time as when he dodges Throw.

Denying reality does not for a good argument. Do I have to make a video proving this as well? Enemies dodge Shockwave all the damn time. They up and roll or hop out of the way, like any non-instant power. Only time they don't is if they're out of range and move into it during the wave's slow-as-hell propagation.

If and only if those two targets line themselves up and are not close to one another. A shockwave only sets off multiple explosions when different bursts of the Shockwave hit different targets. So you have to have them lined up within 10 meters and not adjacent to one another. You know how often that happens? Blue ****ing moon. Sure as hell not while they're shooting at you, being a squishy human adept.

Checked your manifest.  You play on PC.  With the Radius 30% upgrade I regularly hit two targets, detonate two targets and enemies do not "dodge" my shockwave.  I'm sorry that your power is broken.

Gamemako wrote...

With players of equal skill, the AA is just plain better than the HA, hands down, no contest, end of story.

Popular opinion does not equal fact. 

Gamemako wrote...

Worse, you keep talking about "extra 15%" when the reality is that it's 7.5% over the W+T. 

//EDIT: Alright, we just got a 60% range buff. Now we just need propagation rate and radius buffs.

And how do you figure that the extra 15% damage from Shockwave's +65% BE is only 7.5% more than Throw's +50 % BE there, mr engineer?

Oh, radius is not bugged on X360?  Huh.  Thanks.

[Ben Gadura]

Hey OP, have you ever tried a 4/6/6/4/6 build? Today i tested it against cerberus and found out a BE with rank 4 singularity is enough to kill most unshielded enemies (on gold). Also, it stunlocks enemies at any rank...

[KarmaTheAlligator]

So how does the shockwave buff impact this build? Is it even better now, or just the same?

[spudspot]

You can detonate targets at a larger distance. So I'd say yes, if you have trouble being too close, then this is a huge buff.

Modifié par spudspot, 13 juin 2012 - 09:43 .

[zhk3r]

spudspot wrote...

You can detonate targets at a larger distance. So I'd say yes, if you have trouble being too close, then this is a huge buff.

I'm excited about Shockwave'ing through floors now 

[MrScottBear]

I just wish that it went out a little bit faster! But oh well. It's a welcome change and makes the HA a bit less in your face. Of course, out of habit I'm still running up to brutes and such...

[Drakham]

firstly: thanks for making me to take out my HA again after so long not playing him anymore.
Since the update changed the range of shockwave (now 16 or if you improve it you can have 24m range with it) it totally rocks.

Singularity+wave or warp+wave is a really good combo.
Schockwave in general seems to be pretty powerful in itself (seems to push back a brute even a little bit if you increase the force enough through the skills).

What i dont like is the talon.
Maybe because its too close or at least mine doesnt do so much damage (is at I).
I thik ill go with the disciple or if nothing better comes up with the carnifex. Because not having at 150% bonus on cd really hurts you as i found out the hard way.

So all in all i wanna thank you for making me take him out again and play a few rounds, was fun!
Disciple i prefer for staggering (buying time) and weight. Otherwise Graal could be anice choice as well but i get only 100% cd bonus with it.

[MrScottBear]

Hey Z, a question. It seems the radius upgrade is not bugged for the xbox...would you recomend it over damage and force? the extra 30% IS quite nice, but so is a .6 meter radius per burst. Not quite sure which to do.

[1490]

Nice guide, zhk3r, and I always appreciate the fun-oriented, non-condescending tone of your guides. I'm going to have to pull the HA back out, especially now that shockwave has been buffed!