166 réponses à ce sujet

[molecularman]

vivanto wrote...

I apologize for assumming logic from the forums then.

Yes, I stated and still stand by that a novaguard - when hosting - is OP. While that alone does not make the class too powerful since 3:4 will be inferior to that standard, buffing it will not solve the problem for the other three players. Non-host vanguards will still suck while the buff will only benefit a hosting vanguard, which doesn't need it.

So fix the bug (for real), then we can see if they still need a buff - likely not.

Charge unresponsiveness bug alone makes novaguards weak in comparison to anything. If you can't tank effectively then what is left? Not much.

And this forgetting that their damage output is looooow

[vivanto]

molecularman wrote...
And this forgetting that their damage output is looooow

Only for the half-blast and/or AOE vanguard. A damage-focused novaguard is very powerful.

The charge-bug is as you said.. a bug. It needs to be fixed, not buffed. There's no point in buffing something when a bug will still prevent it from being viable.

[nicethugbert]

Qror_pl wrote...

GodlessPaladin wrote...

The number one thing I'd like to see for Vanguards is more offensive reward to for the risk. Some might say "But GP! They already do solid damage!" Well that's true, but you have to compare them to other good choices like the Infiltrator who dishes it out like no tomorrow and is much safer.

The problem is, that infiltrators
 are some-what co-oping, by hacking etc., while kroguards are mostly kill stealers or mindless rushers who charge into first banshee/atlas they see. That's why people won't like any buffs for vanguards. Maybe exept for drell vanguard.

You don't know kill steeling until you have played an adept and had every infiltrator on team use you as their decoy and kill the targets that you stasis, warp, reeve.

[GodlessPaladin]

vivanto wrote...

GodlessPaladin wrote...

vivanto wrote...
My initial point stands

  Your initial point never even had a single piece of supporting argumentation.  You just stated a conclusion that a hosting Vanguard is more powerful than everything.  Your initial point never stood on anything to begin with.

I apologize for assumming logic from the forums then.

Yes, I stated and still stand by that a novaguard - when hosting - is OP. While that alone does not make the class too powerful since 3:4 will be inferior to that standard, buffing it will not solve the problem for the other three players. Non-host vanguards will still suck while the buff will only benefit a hosting vanguard, which doesn't need it.

So fix the bug (for real), then we can see if they still need a buff - likely not.

I don't think you know what logic means.  In logic, valid, cogent, sound, and/or strong arguments have premises and a conclusion.  Simply stating a conclusion (Hosting Vanguards are OP) and then ridiculing the "flawed" logic of others for pointing out that your argument lacks weight is not logical.

You still haven't actually stated anything other than a conclusion.  You have not established any way in which the hosting Novaguard is overpowered compared to other hosting classes.

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 09 juin 2012 - 12:06 .

[molecularman]

vivanto wrote...

molecularman wrote...
And this forgetting that their damage output is looooow

Only for the half-blast and/or AOE vanguard. A damage-focused novaguard is very powerful.

The charge-bug is as you said.. a bug. It needs to be fixed, not buffed. There's no point in buffing something when a bug will still prevent it from being viable.

Actually, no. Their dps sucks no matter what. Even if they hit all 3 possible targets with nova and charge they'll still do less dps than infiltrators and adepts.

[nicethugbert]

Tokenusername wrote...

I would love to see krogan regen, but balence wise for it to be viable it would have to be so small it wouldn;t even be worth it.

Not true, it's very easy on gold to have your shields taken in one shot, unless you have something like 1600 shields, and even that disappears fast.  And, I'm not talking about tanking 3 enemies at once.  I'm talking about stuff like sneaky nemsis, phantoms, grenades, Atlasses from across the map.

The fact is that Krogan are supposed to have regen in the first place.  Shields and health should be adjusted around having the regen, not the other way around.  Save the increased shields and health for Turians and Batarians.

[vivanto]

@GodlessPaladin
As long as you still keep ignoring the actual message - and consequently the topic of the thread, I see no reason or obligation to present you anything.

[Serkevan]

GodlessPaladin wrote...

vivanto wrote...

GodlessPaladin wrote...

vivanto wrote...
My initial point stands

  Your initial point never even had a single piece of supporting argumentation.  You just stated a conclusion that a hosting Vanguard is more powerful than everything.  Your initial point never stood on anything to begin with.

I apologize for assumming logic from the forums then.

Yes, I stated and still stand by that a novaguard - when hosting - is OP. While that alone does not make the class too powerful since 3:4 will be inferior to that standard, buffing it will not solve the problem for the other three players. Non-host vanguards will still suck while the buff will only benefit a hosting vanguard, which doesn't need it.

So fix the bug (for real), then we can see if they still need a buff - likely not.

I don't think you know what logic means.  In logic, valid, cogent, sound, or strong arguments have premises and a conclusion.

You still haven't actually stated anything other than a conclusion.  You have not established any way in which the hosting Novaguard is overpowered compared to other hosting classes.

Because it isn't. 
Nova deals less damage than a sniper rifle round, WAY less. You have to get in the face of the enemies, and the moment there is a cluster of shielded enemies you are toast because you don't stagger then and you are left without barriers. It is a good class (I personally use it with full nova), and can hold myself on gold, but the "mash 1 to look at a nemesis and die" bug kills it more than anything else. And THAT happens HOSTING. HOSTING. In any case, a buff to melee damage/charge evolution 5 would be quite needed.

EDIT: @Vivanto: you said "a hosting novaguard is OP". GP asked: "Why?". You reply: "You are missing the point". Seems legit and logical.

Modifié par Serkevan, 09 juin 2012 - 12:10 .

[GodlessPaladin]

Xerorei wrote...

vivanto wrote...

Looking at your vids.. heavy weapon (relatively) , xbox, half-blast, boring-ass gameplay. Yeah, you're doing something wrong with that vanguard.

Wasn't dishonest, but if you insist, suit yourself.

Sorry man I'm with GP here, you accused him of picking a fight when in reality YOU picked the fight, and took everything he said entirely out context, as well as fishing for someting to insult/argue with him for.  


Give It A Rest.

Having to HOST to play vanguard is not really a benefit, at all, because not everyone wants to host, so that means they shouldn't be able to play vanguard, but can play EVERY OTHER class, get outta here, no really get out, and take your BS with you.

LOL, yeah, he's just being completely dishonest and pretending that we're "ignoring" him because we don't agree that a hosting Vanguard is overpowered compared to everything.

[vivanto]

molecularman wrote...
Actually, no. Their dps sucks no matter what. Even if they hit all 3 possible targets with nova and charge they'll still do less dps than infiltrators and adepts.

1155 points of AOE damage across 5 meters plus 525 single-target damage in less than every 3 seconds while being nigh-invincible is bad? Alright.

Modifié par vivanto, 09 juin 2012 - 12:11 .

[Serkevan]

vivanto wrote...

molecularman wrote...
Actually, no. Their dps sucks no matter what. Even if they hit all 3 possible targets with nova and charge they'll still do less dps than infiltrators and adepts.

1155 points of AOE damage across 5 meters plus 525 single-target damage in less than every 3 seconds while being nigh-invincible is bad? Alright.

Just to burst up your bubble: Nova only hits 3 targets, and a single sniper rifle bullet easily deals over 3K damage. An Adept can roflstomp your area damage from a distance. A cluster grenade deals over 2K damage plus biotic explosions.

[molecularman]

vivanto wrote...

molecularman wrote...
Actually, no. Their dps sucks no matter what. Even if they hit all 3 possible targets with nova and charge they'll still do less dps than infiltrators and adepts.

1155 points of AOE damage across 5 meters plus 525 single-target damage in less than every 3 seconds while being nigh-invincible is bad? Alright.

Nova does 1000+ with a few of power synergy stacks, charge 400 I guess. You can charge about every 3.5 secs with power recharge up, I think.

1400, let's say 1500 every 3.5 secs? 430 dps. Woo hoo. Multiply that by three and infiltrators still do better dps.

[GodlessPaladin]

vivanto wrote...

@GodlessPaladin
As long as you still
keep ignoring the actual message - and consequently the topic of the
thread, I see no reason or obligation to present you anything.

No statement of yours has been ignored.  We know that you're talking about hosting Vanguards.  Seriously.

vivanto wrote...

molecularman wrote...
Actually, no. Their dps sucks no matter what. Even if they hit all 3 possible targets with nova and charge they'll still do less dps than infiltrators and adepts.

1155 points of AOE damage across 5 meters plus 525 single-target damage in less than every 3 seconds while being nigh-invincible is bad? Alright.

That's not actually much DPS, no.

Serkevan wrote...
EDIT: @Vivanto: you said "a hosting
novaguard is OP". GP asked: "Why?". You reply: "You are missing the
point". Seems legit and logical.

Haha yeah.

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 09 juin 2012 - 12:21 .

[Serkevan]

molecularman wrote...

vivanto wrote...

molecularman wrote...
Actually, no. Their dps sucks no matter what. Even if they hit all 3 possible targets with nova and charge they'll still do less dps than infiltrators and adepts.

1155 points of AOE damage across 5 meters plus 525 single-target damage in less than every 3 seconds while being nigh-invincible is bad? Alright.

Nova does 1000+ with a few of power synergy stacks, charge 400 I guess. You can charge about every 3.5 secs with power recharge up, I think.

1400, let's say 1500 every 3.5 secs? 430 dps. Woo hoo. Multiply that by three and infiltrators still do better dps.

A bit higher if you stack a couple of recharge novas. With 200% CD bonus you can charge back in around 2 seconds, but it is of no use because a full damage nova sends everyone flying from Benning to Thessia, so you can only do that once on every enemy; the rest are going to be too scattered. That is the reason I go Area instead of Force+Damage; it doesn't send them too far and the extra radius allows me to hit them a second time; although I lose a good chunk of spike damage.

[Killahead]

I'd love to discuss krogans and vanguards, but for many BSN members such topics seem to be very personal. Pointing out the lack of logic in another person's statement can be done without the "LOL, look at you" comments that also tend to overshadow the initial point. Constructive discussion > personal pride.

[tutzdes]

vivanto, you may ignore the arguments of your opponent but it doesn't change the facts. The facts are: Novaguard is less potent killer than GI, DA, etc, and obviously less useful at other things (reviving, doing objectives). You insist, that hosting Vanguard is better than everything. So show us solo gold game where you're performing better than good players' solo gold runs with their GI. No proof? Your argumentation is BS as it's not based on facts just on some accusations and evasion maneuvers.

[vivanto]

Serkevan wrote...
Just to burst up your bubble: Nova only hits 3 targets, and a single sniper rifle bullet easily deals over 3K damage.

How much is ~1000 times 3?

Serkevan wrote...
An Adept can roflstomp your area damage from a distance. A cluster grenade deals over 2K damage plus biotic explosions.

What's stopping me from detonating those very same explosions, with probably more accuracy than a cluster grenade?

Unless you walk up to a brute/atlas/prime, you're not gonna get that full damage from the grenade. In which case, where is the safe distance? Even from cover, you're nowhere near as sturdy as a continuously charging adept.

Yes, there are bugs that mess up with this. I get the feeling most of you don't know the difference between a bug and imbalance.

[Stance Punk]

IMO it should be a slower regen than the Vorcha. A kind of regen that kicks in after taking fire but then finding a safe place. Not something as immediate as Bloodlust stacks.

[Deucetipher]

While I don't agree that the Hosting Human Vanguard (HHV) is OP (or even in line with some of the more powerful classes), I'll present the arguments that would lead one to conclude so.

On non-gold difficulties, the HHV possesses distinct advantages requiring little skill or awareness. Invincibility frames, decent damage, recharging shields, etc. Furthermore, his ability to fly across the map lets him get to enemies faster than other players, which is a major factor in score for non-gold games due to the relative scarcity of enemies. The HHV is largely weapon-independent (or at least can be played so), and on non-gold, his abilities do more than enough damage to succeed, and even excel.

So, from the perspective of a relative neophyte, non-gold player, the HHV is probably the most "OP" class due to its high survivability, weapon independence, and relatively low-level of skill required.

It is however, one of the classes that I believe requires the greatest adjustment from silver to gold.

Modifié par Deucetipher, 09 juin 2012 - 12:26 .

[molecularman]

Serkevan wrote...

molecularman wrote...
Nova does 1000+ with a few of power synergy stacks, charge 400 I guess. You can charge about every 3.5 secs with power recharge up, I think.

1400, let's say 1500 every 3.5 secs? 430 dps. Woo hoo. Multiply that by three and infiltrators still do better dps.

A bit higher if you stack a couple of recharge novas. With 200% CD bonus you can charge back in around 2 seconds, but it is of no use because a full damage nova sends everyone flying from Benning to Thessia, so you can only do that once on every enemy; the rest are going to be too scattered. That is the reason I go Area instead of Force+Damage; it doesn't send them too far and the extra radius allows me to hit them a second time; although I lose a good chunk of spike damage.

Hmm, maybe 3.5 is not accurate but I'm also factoring the time you spend flying around with charge, it's surprisingly much.

[vivanto]

molecularman wrote...
Hmm, maybe 3.5 is not accurate but I'm also factoring the time you spend flying around with charge, it's surprisingly much.

Charge itself is 3.08 not counting the recharge bonus, so it's somewhat less than 3. Travel time isn't much of a factor after the initial charge vs a bigger enemy or a group of enemies, but add the duration for nova animation and a possible nova-cancel for prolonged invincibility frames and yeah, it's somewhere between 3-4.

[Serkevan]

vivanto wrote...

Serkevan wrote...
Just to burst up your bubble: Nova only hits 3 targets, and a single sniper rifle bullet easily deals over 3K damage.

How much is ~1000 times 3?

Serkevan wrote...
An Adept can roflstomp your area damage from a distance. A cluster grenade deals over 2K damage plus biotic explosions.

What's stopping me from detonating those very same explosions, with probably more accuracy than a cluster grenade?

Unless you walk up to a brute/atlas/prime, you're not gonna get that full damage from the grenade. In which case, where is the safe distance? Even from cover, you're nowhere near as sturdy as a continuously charging adept.

Yes, there are bugs that mess up with this. I get the feeling most of you don't know the difference between a bug and imbalance.

Oh, I do happen to know the difference between a bug and imbalance. I pointed it a bit above.
Also, you failed to read. 1000*3=3000. OVER 3K is MORE than 3K. And 3 half dead enemies are 33% more dangerous than 1 dead and 2 at full health.

I have already stated that, IMO, the only buffs a Novaguard needs are improvements on BC 5 (power/Weapon damage should be higher or last longer, specially the weapon part) and melee damage. That is, aside from fixing the bugs, but as they are most likely not going to be fixed, all we can hope is a temporary solution which increases its viability.

As for Krogan, just remove the limitation of  regenerating only the current health bar and it should be fine.

EDIT: forgot about the explosions/nades. Yes, they might be more inaccurate but the damage is not cumulative. The damage from 1 is the same that from the 4 of them, only AoE changes, so your point is moot as "not getting full damage" is like saying "not hitting with all of a sniper bullet". About BEs, yes you can detonate them, but you have to get in there while the adept can detonate a STRONGER explosion without exposing him or herself.

Modifié par Serkevan, 09 juin 2012 - 12:34 .

[vivanto]

Serkevan wrote...
Also, you failed to read. 1000*3=3000. OVER 3K is MORE than 3K. And 3 half dead enemies are 33% more dangerous than 1 dead and 2 at full health.

~1000, not exactly 1000. You can only get that high damage with a single-shot sniper rifle, in which case you're not going to do it every 3 seconds.

Serkevan wrote...
I have already stated that, IMO, the only buffs a Novaguard needs are improvements on BC 5 (power/Weapon damage should be higher or last longer, specially the weapon part) and melee damage. That is, aside from fixing the bugs, but as they are most likely not going to be fixed, all we can hope is a temporary solution which increases its viability.

And I already agreed to these in my initial post, well the weapon damage anyway, power synergy is good im

Serkevan wrote...
As for Krogan, just remove the limitation of  regenerating only the current health bar and it should be fine.

Exactly what I said in my initial post. Now if anyone says they didn't ignore my post one more time, they're a doofus.

edit:
For the novaguard, 33% more dangerous enemies don't matter, that's why invincibility frames and charge is for.

Modifié par vivanto, 09 juin 2012 - 12:40 .

[pacientK]

Agree on regen for krogans.
But vanguards need a bit more of shields/health and nothing more.

[GodlessPaladin]

vivanto wrote...

Serkevan wrote...
Also, you failed to read. 1000*3=3000. OVER 3K is MORE than 3K. And 3 half dead enemies are 33% more dangerous than 1 dead and 2 at full health.

~1000, not exactly 1000. You can only get that high damage with a single-shot sniper rifle, in which case you're not going to do it every 3 seconds.

   How much damage per second do you actually think you're doing, Vivanto?  And now how much DPS do you think a Geth Infiltrator is doing?

See, in reality, a GI can do a helluva lot more than 3000 damage in 3 seconds.  In fact he's getting Nova-like damage just from the Proximity Mine.

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 09 juin 2012 - 12:57 .