166 réponses à ce sujet

[InTheZone]

GodlessPaladin wrote...

The number one thing I'd like to see for Vanguards is more offensive reward to for the risk. Some might say "But GP! They already do solid damage!" Well that's true, but you have to compare them to other good choices like the Infiltrator who dishes it out like no tomorrow and is much safer.

Infiltrators = Noob class

[Variasaber]

Vanguards can already charge pretty much anywhere. They can use charge to skip ladders, jump ledges, pass through open windows they couldn't possibly fit through, over and under all sorts of things. I've played my share of Vanguards, they don't need a buff. If you find yourself out in the open getting shot while trying to find something to charge, you should try playing the Vanguard more defensively instead of trying to go full berserker on everything.

[molecularman]

Variasaber wrote...

Vanguards can already charge pretty much anywhere. They can use charge to skip ladders, jump ledges, pass through open windows they couldn't possibly fit through, over and under all sorts of things. I've played my share of Vanguards, they don't need a buff. If you find yourself out in the open getting shot while trying to find something to charge, you should try playing the Vanguard more defensively instead of trying to go full berserker on everything.

You gotta read dem thread through. Being survivable alone isn't enough when you are lacking in damage potential.

[Moonwish]

Vanguards are viable on gold too, but you really need to host, thats the thing which should be fixed.
I topscore almost anytime with my Novaguard on gold when Im hosting, the thing is, its coop role is really being a butcher, mawing trough the enemies. I leave the bosses to others, because they are much more effective to them, but for everything else, its a killer machine. If you can time your charges, novas, rolls, you will get minimum dmg.

[CC-Tron]

THE NOOBIE NOOB WHO TYPES IN CAPS wrote...

The eternal flying is a LAG issue. Just don't mash the key like there's no tomorrow and you shouldn't fly as much.
Agreed on the charge marathon issue, I do believe that Krogans need health regen, their whole point is to tank (Sentinel) and the Vanguard is waaay too slow and gets mashed on Gold (usually)

Not my krogan vanguard.

[Impulse and Compulse]

I used to swear by the Vanguard back in the Demo, but by now it's become obvious that there are lots of other, better classes. Krogan are just way too vulnerable for their legendary status, and vanguards just aren't capable of being a tactical class anymore.

[GodlessPaladin]

For handy reference.

molecularman wrote...

Let's not forget that GI melee is like 3 times more powerful than nova! And most geth players still skip it so apparently guns do even better than that

Let's examine just how much damage a Geth Infiltrator does. Heck I'll even be really really nice and focus on a build that DOES NOT go for maximum single target damage.

Krysae base damage: 664
Geth Infiltrator bonuses: 22.5% damage (Networked AI), 25% damage (Hunter Mode), 90% damage (Cloak), 35% damage (Warp ammo, just to keep it simple. Other ammos will actually be better and do even more damage. I'm just not exactly sure on all the numbers/mechanics for Disruptor and Inferno ammo), 30% damage (Sniper rail amp), 15% damage (Sniper gear amp), 25% (High Caliber Barrel), 1.4x multiplier (TC Sniper Evolution), 1.2x multiplier (possibly more than one, because Prox Mine stacks with itself. It also provides the bonus to the whole party). x3 shots (you can get all 3 during one cloak cycle)

End results? 11,462 damage + Proximity Mine damage (which is AT LEAST 1462 damage). In an area. Across the map. Now add in the fact that I could switch that Warp Ammo for Incendiary or Disruptor ammo and throw a Tech Burst or Fire Explosion in there. Now consider that I could actually do a lot more single target damage if I used something like a Hurricane or Reegar.

This is all in the space of less than 3 seconds. So no, I am not impressed by your Nova damage, Vivanto. At all. Nobody is ignoring anything, nobody is missing the point. We know that you think a hosting Human Vanguard using full nova does impressive DPS and is "overpowered compared to everything." The problem is that you are simply wrong.

Serkevan wrote...
Someone go get this man a medal for using maths and logic, please.

molecularman wrote...
And so the myth about nova doing crazy dps has been disproved once and for all!

Also let's look at Geth Melee.

Base damage: 375. Doesn't sound like much right? But wait!
Fitness bonuses: +135% melee damage.
Cloak bonuses: +140% melee damage.
Hunter Mode: +25% melee damage.
Proximity Mine: 1.2x multiplier and of course its own not inconsiderable damage.
Gear: +115% melee damage (Hydraulic Joints, Melee Amp III)
Bayonet: 1.25x multiplier.

So now that 375 gets turned into... 2430 damage. Which can be fired off in rapid succession and affects a 5 meter radius. I am not sure exactly how long the animation is, but you can get multiple melees easily within the cloak bonus window. This is of course in addition to the proximity mine's damage. Which, I might add, gets a 30% boost from melee synergy.

Edit: Made a mistake... forgot that the bayonet was a multiplier. Really wish the tooltips would note these things. That makes it 2897 damage instead.

___

Likewise, the Drell Adept also makes nova damage look like nothing in particular.  Now, I don't actually know how much damage Biotic Explosions are doing, but this should give you a decent idea of the damage we're talking about.

www.youtube.com/watch 
Nowadays blowing up a wave 9 Gold Reapers spawn point with 2 banshees doesn't even use up all of his grenades.  I can just do it over and over.

___

Now let's see how much damage Nova does.

Base damage: 350.

Bonuses: 30% (rank 3) + 40% (rank 4) + 100% (rank 6 vs armor, shields, barriers only) + 30% (power amp III) + 12% (Mental Focuser V) + 35% (Alliance Training all power damage) + 25% (Power damage bonus from Biotic Charge =

1302 damage without half blast. 1162 damage with half blast.

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 09 juin 2012 - 03:16 .

[CC-Tron]

InTheZone wrote...

GodlessPaladin wrote...

The number one thing I'd like to see for Vanguards is more offensive reward to for the risk. Some might say "But GP! They already do solid damage!" Well that's true, but you have to compare them to other good choices like the Infiltrator who dishes it out like no tomorrow and is much safer.

Infiltrators = Noob class

The run, hide and draw no aggro class.

[molecularman]

CC-Tron wrote...

InTheZone wrote...

GodlessPaladin wrote...

The number one thing I'd like to see for Vanguards is more offensive reward to for the risk. Some might say "But GP! They already do solid damage!" Well that's true, but you have to compare them to other good choices like the Infiltrator who dishes it out like no tomorrow and is much safer.

Infiltrators = Noob class

The run, hide and draw no aggro class.

Funny how opinions change like this on the course of time   Vanguard always used to be that noob who only charges and dies, no exceptions

[Dr Derp]

I fully support the Krogan idea

[Serkevan]

@GP: Half nova is actually less IIRC;If I am right it reduces base damage, so the multipliers applied will be lower, but I could be wrong.

[GodlessPaladin]

Serkevan wrote...

@GP: Half nova is actually less IIRC;If I am right it reduces base damage, so the multipliers applied will be lower, but I could be wrong.

Would appreciate confirmation one way or the other.

[jaydubs67]

Ooh, solid numbers.  Does this mean I'm not delusional?  Infiltrators and grenade capacity gear really are OP?  Cause every time I say that people tend to look at me like I'm crazy.  Then they cry "burn the nerfer" and drive me out of town.  <_<  

[GodlessPaladin]

GodlessPaladin wrote...

Serkevan wrote...

@GP: Half nova is actually less IIRC;If I am right it reduces base damage, so the multipliers applied will be lower, but I could be wrong.

Would appreciate confirmation one way or the other.

Just checked in-game, and unless the power screen is lying to me Half-Blast does not divide base damage.

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 09 juin 2012 - 04:00 .

[Lexa_D]

GodlessPaladin wrote...

GodlessPaladin wrote...

Serkevan wrote...

@GP: Half nova is actually less IIRC;If I am right it reduces base damage, so the multipliers applied will be lower, but I could be wrong.

Would appreciate confirmation one way or the other.

Just checked in-game, and unless the power screen is lying to me Half-Blast does not divide base damage.

Sweet, thanx for info

[ndw542]

A summary of the thread:

GP: argument
vivanto: argument
GP: argument
vivanto: argument
GP: argument
vivanto: argument
GP: Math!!
vivanto: ...
GP: MOAR MATH!!!
vivanto: ... [sound of door closing]

[Serkevan]

GodlessPaladin wrote...

GodlessPaladin wrote...

Serkevan wrote...

@GP: Half nova is actually less IIRC;If I am right it reduces base damage, so the multipliers applied will be lower, but I could be wrong.

Would appreciate confirmation one way or the other.

Just checked in-game, and unless the power screen is lying to me Half-Blast does not divide base damage.

Will try to test in-game, but I take your word for the moment.

[GodlessPaladin]

Serkevan wrote...

GodlessPaladin wrote...

GodlessPaladin wrote...

Serkevan wrote...

@GP: Half nova is actually less IIRC;If I am right it reduces base damage, so the multipliers applied will be lower, but I could be wrong.

Would appreciate confirmation one way or the other.

Just checked in-game, and unless the power screen is lying to me Half-Blast does not divide base damage.

Will try to test in-game, but I take your word for the moment.

On the powers screen sliders, the 40% penalty from Half Blast works exactly like the additive bonuses from other evolutions (rank 3 and 4), and it displays rank 4 damage + rank 5 half blast as a null sum.  So like I said, it's not a separate multiplier unless the power screen is just straight up lying to me.

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 09 juin 2012 - 05:30 .

[GodlessPaladin]

ndw542 wrote...

A summary of the thread:

GP: argument
vivanto: argument
GP: argument
vivanto: argument
GP: argument
vivanto: argument
GP: Math!!
vivanto: ...
GP: MOAR MATH!!!
vivanto: ... [sound of door closing]

Even that's too generous to Vivanto... his statements barely even qualify as arguments.  Proper arguments have premises purported to support a conclusion.  They don't go, to paraphrase how another poster put it, "Conclusion"  "Why?"  "You're missing the point." 

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 09 juin 2012 - 05:38 .

[Mash-X-ToDieSlower]

I want to buff ALL OF THE classES!!!!

[vivanto]

ndw542 wrote...
[snip]

Welcome, ever heard of real-life? I thought so too. 

@GP
Awesome job completely derailing this into a GI and Krysae gloating thread while trying to support your points, like we don't have enough of those already telling how broken that is.

Doing math work is pointless because it is academic what one would consider overpowered. To me, that is the ability to kill anything, anywhere, anytime without the risk of dieing and requring very little skill to do so.

To humor your thoughts:

Nova
Damage: 1155
= 350 (base value)
+30% (105) Nova 3: Force & Damage
+40% (140) Nova 4: Force & Damage
+5% (17.5) Alliance Training 1: Alliance Training
+5% (17.5) Alliance Training 2: Power Damage
+10% (35) Alliance Training 4: Damage & Capacity
+15% (52.5) Alliance Training 5: Power Damage
+25% (87,5) Biotic Charge 5: Power Synergy
+100% (350) Nova 6: Pierce

x3 target damage: 3465

Force: 1035N
= 450N (base value)
+30% (135N) Nova 3: Force & Damage
+40% (180N) Nova 4: Force & Damage
+5% (22.5N) Alliance Training 1: Alliance Training
+5% (22.5N) Alliance Training 2: Power Damage
+10% (45N) Alliance Training 4: Damage & Capacity
+15% (67.5N) Alliance Training 5: Power Damage
+25% (112,5) Biotic Charge 5: Power Synergy

x3 target force: 3105N

Charge
Damage: 525
= 250 (base value)
+20% (50) Biotic Charge 3: Force & Damage
+30% (75) Biotic Charge 4: Force & Damage
+5% (12.5) Alliance Training 1: Alliance Training
+5% (12.5) Alliance Training 2: Power Damage
+10% (25) Alliance Training 4: Damage & Capacity
+15% (37.5) Alliance Training 5: Power Damage
+25% (62,5) Biotic Charge 5: Power Synergy

Force: 1050N
= 500N (base value)
+20% (100N) Biotic Charge 3: Force & Damage
+30% (150N) Biotic Charge 4: Force & Damage
+5% (25N) Alliance Training 1: Alliance Training
+5% (25N) Alliance Training 2: Power Damage
+10% (50N) Alliance Training 4: Damage & Capacity
+15% (75N) Alliance Training 5: Power Damage
+25% (125) Biotic Charge 5: Power Synergy

Sum
Damage: 3990
Force: 2085N (single target, 4155 total)

Not sure how force translates to damage, only certainty is that anything down to health and thus gets flinged around the map is dead.

This is the class on its own, no fancy gear, power amp or weapon damage, add anything you prefer to the mix. Of course, I'm sure you did this already, the formatting kinda gives it away. No idea if power snyergy can be stacked either damage- or duration-wise, similarly to Nova's power recharge buff.

Not as impressive as you'd like on the Krysae, even when it's actual damage is debatable with the proxmity explosion. I'm curious however how your wonderful Geth fares in the shield department with hunter mode, spamming heavy melee and constantly cloaking. It trades even that little survivability it had to damage, which is fair. The novaguard is - bare bugs - invincible if played well while still dishing out a significant damage at any point on the map.

Don't know about you, but as long as I'm hosting, I take 4000 damage / 3 seconds with invincibility to a wet tissue paper any day, no matter how hard you can slap that tissue paper.

Now tell me, how buffing anything to the novaguard is going to help non-hosts while not making an invincible cannonball that is the host completely op?

Modifié par vivanto, 09 juin 2012 - 05:54 .

[GodlessPaladin]

vivanto wrote...

ndw542 wrote...
[snip]

Welcome, ever heard of real-life? I thought so too. 

@GP
Awesome job completely derailing this into a GI and Krysae gloating thread while trying to support your points, like we don't have enough of those already telling how broken that is.

  Uhh, you were the one who was saying that the Novaguard was overpowered compared to everything.  The GI is a part of everything.  The Drell Adept is part of everything.  Male Quarians are part of everything.

Doing math work is pointless

  <_<

vivanto wrote...
x3 target damage: 3465

  Where are you getting "x3" from?

x3 target force: 3105N

Again, where are you getting this "x3" from?  Pretty sure you just made that part up.  Are you pretending that you will get 3 charge/novas off in 3 seconds (you won't) and that it's realistic to add up the damage this way?  Or what?

vivanto wrote...
I'm curious however how your wonderful Geth fares in the shield department with hunter mode, spamming heavy melee and constantly cloaking. It trades even that little survivability it had to damage, which is fair. The novaguard is - bare bugs - invincible if played well while still dishing out a significant damage at any point on the map.

  Except it's not.  The Novaguard is, if anything, more vulnerable to actually being taken out of a wave permanently than most other classes due to the threat of sync kills (at least from Cerberus and Reapers.  Geth compensate with staggers and sneaky turrets which will down Vanguards).  Even the very best players, as shown in videos of players like Zhhk doing speedruns and getting grabbed.   Or maybe you just think they're all "bad vanguards" too.  <_<

The Novaguard will die quickly from rapid fire attacks that sneak in hits between invincibility frames, from anything that staggers them (such as melee attacks), or from magnetic extending clown hand sync kills.  The hosting Vanguard is not invincible.

Now tell me, how buffing anything to the novaguard is going to help
non-hosts while not making an invincible cannonball that is the host
completely op?

  Because the hosting Vanguard isn't an invincible cannonball.  Hell, even Bioware makes fun of people who think this way.   blog.bioware.com/2012/01/27/special-forces/

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 09 juin 2012 - 06:55 .

[Rodrrigoww]

Ok guys I'm aware of the discussion going on , also , I've modified the initial post to some of the things you guys mentioned , two specifically , one being more specific about krogan's regen , and another being more realistical while making it actually a more efficent regarding vanguard's charge.Maybe we can get the attention of Bioware!
Tell me what you think about the recent changes , mainly the vanguards one , I think it fits just perfectl the bill!

Modifié par Rodrrigoww, 09 juin 2012 - 06:34 .

[GodlessPaladin]

Rodrrigoww wrote...

Ok guys I'm aware of the discussion going on , also , I've modified the initial post to some of the things you guys mentioned , two specifically , one being more specific about krogan's regen , and another being more realistical while making it actually a more efficent regarding vanguard's charge.Maybe we can get the attention of Bioware!

I don't think any of your suggestions would do much to address the primary issues Vanguards face in the current metagame.  And not having to even see enemies to charge seems just silly.  I am generally against things that allow me to play without looking at the screen.

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 09 juin 2012 - 06:37 .

[FlowCytometry]

Nitrocuban wrote...

First fix permastuntodeath vs Geth please

This. Bigger races needed this fixed yesterday. BW, please remember to adress this in ur next balannce pass- its rather gamebreaking. If you don't believe us, play a Batarian or Krogan Se/So vs. Geth on Gold and see for urself what you've allowed to pass in ur game for this long.

Modifié par FlowCytometry, 09 juin 2012 - 06:38 .