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Two buffs that would make vanguards and krogans way more viable classes.


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#151
GodlessPaladin

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vivanto wrote...
Yet you still keep beating on the same damn thing while all you have to say about survivability is that the vanguard has less health/shield than your geth?


I suppose that's another "rhetorical you" when you attribute a statement to me I clearly didn't make?  The Geth effectively has less shields than the Vanguard because Hunter Mode should almost always be on.  I did however list plenty of reasons OTHER than health/shields.

Yet again you are completely disingenuous.

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 09 juin 2012 - 08:32 .


#152
molecularman

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vivanto wrote...

GodlessPaladin wrote...
Well obviously you just must be "ignoring the point." :lol:


Amusingly, you are. :whistle: 

I already acknowledged the damage potential of the novaguard - even if I was generous by not using any equipments.

Yet you still keep beating on the same damn thing while all you have to say about survivability is that the vanguard has less health/shield than your geth?

Well... If you'd rather compare novaguard to asari adept the class reloations become rather clear. Asari is no less survivable than a risky novaguard.

And since infils are universally considered more effective than adepts, I think they should be better than novaguards as well, if logic still applies.

Modifié par molecularman, 09 juin 2012 - 08:28 .


#153
robarcool

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Olaf_de_IJsbeer wrote...

Qror_pl wrote...

GodlessPaladin wrote...

The number one thing I'd like to see for Vanguards is more offensive reward to for the risk. Some might say "But GP! They already do solid damage!" Well that's true, but you have to compare them to other good choices like the Infiltrator who dishes it out like no tomorrow and is much safer.


The problem is, that infiltrators
 are some-what co-oping, by hacking etc., while kroguards are mostly kill stealers or mindless rushers who charge into first banshee/atlas they see. That's why people won't like any buffs for vanguards. Maybe exept for drell vanguard.


I agree that charging Banshees is stupid, except when it's warranted (biotic explosion, for example), but charging an Atlas is totally justified. We take enemy fire so you don't have to. It's our way of helping.

I charge atlases when playing vanguard, but it is kind of risky due to increased sync-kill chance.

#154
vivanto

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GodlessPaladin wrote...
I suppose that's another "rhetorical you" when you attribute a statement to me I clearly didn't make?

Which one, this completely unrelated debate, or this bullshit you keep repeating?

GodlessPaladin wrote...
As I've said before, I'm actually at less risk of dying with the Geth Infiltrator and honestly, it shouldn't be hard for you to see why since you yourself are arguing that a class with one of the lowest total effective health/shield values in the game is invincible.

If you meant it in any other way, it's very stupid of you to put it in the same sentence you're trying to defend your geth's survivability.


GodlessPaladin wrote...
The Geth effectively has less shields than the Vanguard because Hunter Mode should almost always be on.  I did however list plenty of reasons OTHER than health/shields.

Of which only one was borderline-acceptable, the others just assumed bugs or a very careless player. Actually, even that one is easy to solve with proper play.

A few simple facts that I'd like to know how you're solving.
 - The geth has rubbish for health.
 - Hunter Mode halves your shields.
 - Heavy melee drains your shields.
 - Cloak prevents you from regenerating.
Since within melee range you're pretty much toast if you don't cloak super-quick, are you getting your shields with simply covering for a few seconds? If yes, then what's your damage output while hiding?


GodlessPaladin wrote...
Yet again you are completely disingenuous.

Since you stopped using your previous fave-word, I wonder how long it'll take for you to pick something else that makes you believe you're writing something clever instead of absolutely nothing. At least I know this last paragraph is only flame-bait from both of us, while I'm sure you'll either conjure up some lame excuse or ignore it - which obviously would be preferable for everyone.

Modifié par vivanto, 09 juin 2012 - 09:08 .


#155
GodlessPaladin

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vivanto wrote...

GodlessPaladin wrote...
I suppose that's another "rhetorical you" when you attribute a statement to me I clearly didn't make?

Which one, this completely unrelated debate, or this bullshit you keep repeating?

GodlessPaladin wrote...
As I've said before, I'm actually at less risk of dying with the Geth Infiltrator and honestly, it shouldn't be hard for you to see why since you yourself are arguing that a class with one of the lowest total effective health/shield values in the game is invincible.

If you meant it in any other way, it's very stupid of you to put it in the same sentence you're trying to defend your geth's survivability.

  Are you completely daft?  Read the whole post you just quoted.  I just said it shouldn't be hard for you to see why there are factors other than health/shields contributing to Geth survivability since you yourself are arguing that a class with low health/shields is "invincible," and therefore should obviously be capable of recognizing that health/shields aren't all that matters.

vivanto wrote...
A few simple facts that I'd like to know how you're solving.
 - The geth has rubbish for health.
 - Hunter Mode halves your shields.
 - Heavy melee drains your shields.
 - Cloak prevents you from regenerating.


Well if you had actually read my posts you'd see where I answered each one of those questions.  You could also look at my GI videos for numerous demonstrations.

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 09 juin 2012 - 09:15 .


#156
vivanto

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You really don't know what a vanguard has that neither geth does, do you?

edit

Well if you had actually read my posts you'd see where I answered each of those questions. You could also look at my GI videos for numerous demonstrations.

That's a mouthful for saying zero.

Modifié par vivanto, 09 juin 2012 - 09:16 .


#157
GodlessPaladin

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vivanto wrote...
That's a mouthful for saying zero.


You've QUOTED the posts where I answered those questions, then just repeated the questions right back at me.  And I referenced you to demonstration videos.  They're in my sig.  If you're not being disingenuous then I can only conclude that you're completely blinkered if you think I've been "saying zero."

This is the final time I will address this topic while you repeatedly insist that I'm not addressing this topic.  These are some of the factors that contribute to Geth Infiltrator survivability.  The Human Vanguard shares some of these factors, but not all.  Likewise, the Human Vanguard has some factors that the GI doesn't, but also some vulnerablities that the GI doesn't.
[list][*]-Shield and Health gate.  A great deal of enemy attacks on Gold are hitting these benchmarks even on characters with higher health/shields.  It's pretty much just rapid fire attacks where the GI is meaningfully more vulnerable in the health/shields department than many others.
[*]-You actually have the option to turn off Hunter Mode for a shield boost if you think it will help you hold the line in some given situation.  The fact that this just isn't often done only stands to illustrate that doubling its shields isn't a big deal for the GI.    In fact in many situations you're probably better off having the extra
situational awareness, movement speed, and offensive power when it
comes to survivability.[*]-You can stay at a safe range and still dole out massive damage.  Even with a full melee build (like my original GI) melee is a more situational, opportunistic thing... for clearing out rooms of mooks or enemies who get too close.  Treating the GI like a one trick pony is doing it wrong.  Take a look at the videos of my melee GI in my sig.
[*]-Between your effectiveness against bosses (and phantoms) at a variety of ranges, situational awareness, and mobility, sync kills almost never occur.  This is meaningful because sync kills are FAR worse for you than any other kind of damage you take.  Unless you're the type to die all the bloody time for some reason, you can just get right back up after being knocked down by normal attacks.  Only sync kills can really permanently remove skilled players from a wave (barring situations like solo runs, and even then there's a difference in importance between types... a sync kill just ends the run outright, whereas you need to be downed 5 times by normal attacks).
[*]-Shields don't regenerate when in cloak... who cares?  They regenerate while I'm shooting at thngs.[*]-Movement speed bonus means many attacks miss outright. [*]-They can dodge.[*]-Infiltrators can grab 4-device objectives more safely than anyone else.  They can also maneuver TO targets or pizza objectives more easily than most.  They can also revive teammates in the middle of a firefight more safely than most.
[*]-Tactical Cloak means enemies have a very difficult time tracking you.[*]-An attentive player is almost never surprised by enemies due to Hunter Mode.[*]- Enemies rarely have time to react to you during the time you are exposed for attacking.  They will stagger, die, or simply not have time to react before you reposition to mount another offensive.  There is pretty much one thing that can really knock out an attentive GI... rapid fire attacks from mooks, and you can kill all of those guys almost instantaneously.
[*]-A bit of an expansion on the last point:  The best defense is a good offense and damn do GIs have offense.  You are dealing with any given threat for a lesser amount of time than many other classes. 

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 09 juin 2012 - 11:55 .


#158
Serkevan

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Well, necroing like a boss.
I have tried to test full nova vs half nova ingame, but I screwed up a build and won't be able to do proper tests until I play a couple of games more. In any case, without consumables, against a silver Cerb trooper, full deals 5 bars and half 3.

Also: Vivanto, would you mind sharing with us the thing that makes Novaguards OP? Because, if it is damage, it has been proven that others do more. If it is survivability, it has been proven that others have, if not more, the same. I don't know what else you can bring to te table.

#159
Achire

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Human Vanguards can tank better than other classes. It's just that you don't need a tank for Gold, you're better off with another high damage class. Also the best combo detonator. But a team doing combos just isn't as good as a bunch of Geth Infiltrators with the Claymore.

#160
GodlessPaladin

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Serkevan wrote...

Well, necroing like a boss.
I have tried to test full nova vs half nova ingame, but I screwed up a build and won't be able to do proper tests until I play a couple of games more. In any case, without consumables, against a silver Cerb trooper, full deals 5 bars and half 3.

  I need you to tell me more than that.  Did you charge first?  Did you have power synergy?  Did you have Power Damage bonuses from alliance training?  Did you spec for damage or radius at rank 4?  Et cetera.

Also, a Cerberus Trooper?  Those guys don't have shields.  Are you counting the force damage, because that varies depending on the circumstances...

Anyways, a Cerberus Assault Trooper has 1125 health on Silver.

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 10 juin 2012 - 02:42 .


#161
GodlessPaladin

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Achire wrote...
Also the best combo detonator.


If this was true before (arguable due to a lack of biotic detonation bonuses, and it's not like Throw is slow), this isn't true anymore.  Drell Adepts don't run dry anymore.  Male Quarian Engineers are amazing at tech bursts without any help.  Heck even Shockwave has become better at causing detonations and Human Sentinels can maintain a more consistent presence with Tech Armor's buffs.

Human Vanguards can tank better than other classes. It's just that you
don't need a tank for Gold, you're better off with another high damage
class


This touches on a point I made before.  The thing about the Human Vanguard is that it's a great tank... but a tank that requires skill and wants a fairly mobile team.  The reason this feature struggles for relevance in the metagame is because with skilled teams, a tank is rather unnecessary (and frankly the only real way people are being taken out of a wave is via sync kills, and Vanguards are abnormally vulnerable to those) and on less skilled teams, Vanguard players infamously die repeatedly and players don't want to follow them around the map.

Contrast the Salarian Engineer.  The Salarian Engineer is a very easy to use tank that can hold the line indefinitely... at least in a given direction.  The usefulness of this decreases greatly for more skilled teams, but it has a clear place in the metagame for less skilled teams.

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 10 juin 2012 - 02:48 .


#162
Achire

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You mean because of the new Grenade Upgrade or?

#163
GodlessPaladin

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Achire wrote...

You mean because of the new Grenade Upgrade or?


That's certainly a part of it.  Edited a bit more info into previous post.

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 10 juin 2012 - 02:41 .


#164
Achire

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That's actually a pretty good point about tanking and skill levels.

The damage thing could be tested on a Geth Prime. Charge => Full Nova versus Charge => Half Nova => Nova Cancel, and see how many of those it takes. I did something similar with the shield mod in April. I don't play the Full Nova build much so I don't know if I'll get it done myself, though.

#165
molecularman

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Serkevan wrote...

Also: Vivanto, would you mind sharing with us the thing that makes Novaguards OP? Because, if it is damage, it has been proven that others do more. If it is survivability, it has been proven that others have, if not more, the same. I don't know what else you can bring to te table.

I think that pretty much sums up the whole thread.

#166
Serkevan

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GodlessPaladin wrote...

Serkevan wrote...

Well, necroing like a boss.
I have tried to test full nova vs half nova ingame, but I screwed up a build and won't be able to do proper tests until I play a couple of games more. In any case, without consumables, against a silver Cerb trooper, full deals 5 bars and half 3.

  I need you to tell me more than that.  Did you charge first?  Did you have power synergy?  Did you have Power Damage bonuses from alliance training?  Did you spec for damage or radius at rank 4?  Et cetera.

Also, a Cerberus Trooper?  Those guys don't have shields.  Are you counting the force damage, because that varies depending on the circumstances...

Anyways, a Cerberus Assault Trooper has 1125 health on Silver.


Only the Nova itself. As I said, I screwed the build so I need to test it more. Will try to have results tonight with consumables and such. The force damage accounted for a bit more, but I noticed it being far higher with charge (Nova only throws them on the ground with little extra damage).

#167
landylan

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ahem.....vanguards are supposed to be some pretty bad dudes. soldiers and vanguards should have a higher weight capacity than other classes. infiltrators are fine because theyre awesome and theyre supposed to be fragile aanndd their cooldown is not largely affected by weight. the dream of an awesome claymore vanguard (except maybe the krogan, which i hate) isnt really because you depend on your cooldown too much. the evolution that gives like a 15% boost to weapons damage for three seconds is stupid too. that either needs to get a drastic increase or it needs to have a much longer duration so that you can stack it