151 réponses à ce sujet

[wsandista]

jlb524 wrote...

wsandista wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

wsandista wrote...

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Haha, you people are just so stupid.

Yes consistency is quite idiotic.

You aren't consistent.

LOL, changing characters to suit the player's whims is bad, m'kay.

So you agree with me that herosexual LIs are bad?

No...that's your hypocrisy  I'm pointing out there.

One modifies the character appearance, the other the actual character. they are not equivalent

I can't turn Isabela into the virgin next door can I?

[Flashflame58]

jlb524 wrote...
I'm not disagreeing with that.

Ah, I see. I mistook your witty remark as your actual opinion. My mistake.

[jlb524]

wsandista wrote...

One modifies the character appearance, the other the actual character. they are not equivalent

I can't turn Isabela into the virgin next door can I?

Appearance is yet another character property.

[wsandista]

jlb524 wrote...

wsandista wrote...

One modifies the character appearance, the other the actual character. they are not equivalent

I can't turn Isabela into the virgin next door can I?

Appearance is yet another character property.

Really? Haven't you argued that sexuality isn't part of charecterization?

[mesmerizedish]

The amount of white privilege in this thread is literally stifling.

[wsandista]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

The amount of white privilege in this thread is literally stifling.

Yes because turning Aveline black isn't racist and disgusting while turning Isabela white is.

[mesmerizedish]

[quote]wsandista wrote...

[quote]jlb524 wrote...

[quote]wsandista wrote...

One modifies the character appearance, the other the actual character. they are not equivalent

I can't turn Isabela into the virgin next door can I?

[/quote]

Appearance is yet another character property.

[/quote]

Really? Haven't you argued that sexuality isn't part of charecterization?[/quote]

There's nothing ambiguous about bisexuality. There's nothing ambiguous about Isabela's skin color. Having a preference is fine. Erasing the only major non-white character in the game to suit your preference is racist.
[/quote]

Modifié par ishmaeltheforsaken, 12 juin 2012 - 07:04 .

[Flashflame58]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

The amount of white privilege in this thread is literally stifling.

I'm not quite sure I know what you mean. Care to elaborate?

[mesmerizedish]

wsandista wrote...

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

The amount of white privilege in this thread is literally stifling.

Yes because turning Aveline black isn't racist and disgusting while turning Isabela white is.

Since there ISN'T a mod that turn Aveline black, I'm going to call this irrelevant.

[jlb524]

wsandista wrote...
Really? Haven't you argued that sexuality isn't part of charecterization?

It is.

I just don't have a problem with it being left to interpretation (i.e., not clearly defined in the narrative).

Like a plethora of other properties.

Like, Isabela's favorite ice cream flavor....it's left open...so I can imagine it's vanilla and you can imagine it's chocolate.

Modifié par jlb524, 12 juin 2012 - 07:06 .

[wsandista]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

wsandista wrote...

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

The amount of white privilege in this thread is literally stifling.

Yes because turning Aveline black isn't racist and disgusting while turning Isabela white is.

Since there ISN'T a mod that turn Aveline black, I'm going to call this irrelevant.

Why? If there were a mod that did that would it be better than turning Isabela white?

[Maria Caliban]

jlb524 wrote...

Like, Isabela's favorite ice cream flavor....it's left open...so I can imagine it's vanilla and you can imagine it's chocolate.

Isabela enjoys eating all sorts of ice cream. No favorites with her.

[wsandista]

jlb524 wrote...

It is.

I just don't have a problem with it being left to interpretation (i.e., not clearly defined in the narrative).

Like a plethora of other properties.

Like, Isabela's favorite ice cream flavor....it's left open...so I can imagine it's vanilla and you can imagine it's chocolate.

*shrug* Honestly arguing isn't gettig either one of us anywhere. I understand you concern about limiting player choices, but I would like NPCs to be able to reject the PC, not just because of gender but choices as well. I would prefer 2/2/2, but If i can't get that all-bi is an acceptable substitute. However i insist that there must be homosexual NPCs that play a prominent role. I'm quite tired of homosexuals being substituted by bisexuals.

[hussey 92]

[quote]ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

[quote]wsandista wrote...

[quote]jlb524 wrote...

[quote]wsandista wrote...

One modifies the character appearance, the other the actual character. they are not equivalent

I can't turn Isabela into the virgin next door can I?

[/quote]

Appearance is yet another character property.

[/quote]

Really? Haven't you argued that sexuality isn't part of charecterization?[/quote]

There's nothing ambiguous about bisexuality. There's nothing ambiguous about Isabela's skin color. Having a preference is fine. Erasing the only major non-white character in the game to suit your preference is racist.
[/quote][/quote]
Isabella was not the only non-white major character in the game.  

[wsandista]

Maria Caliban wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

Like, Isabela's favorite ice cream flavor....it's left open...so I can imagine it's vanilla and you can imagine it's chocolate.

Isabela enjoys eating all sorts of ice cream. No favorites with her.

Incorrect. Isabela hates ice cream. She prefers her sweets to be hot and steamy, not cold and soft.

[LuvPoison]

This is almost like the discussion I had with someone a few months ago. They didn't think it was wrong for a light, fair, or white person to get tan or dark. But found it wrong for a tan, dark, or black person to bleach or lighten their skin.


..... Interesting.....

[upsettingshorts]

wsandista wrote...

If there were a mod that [turned Aveline black] would it be better than turning Isabela white?

Unequivocally and without reservation, yes it would be.  Categorically.

Not all double standards are unreasonable, and not all double standards are hypocritical.  There is a clear distinction to be drawn by anyone willing to think critically.  The double standard with regards to what constitutes racism is - put simply - a justifiable response to wildly unequal history, context, and reality.  

Double standards - when they are in error - assume that all other things are equal.  When it comes to race, this is demonstrably not the case.  Ergo, the situations must be approached differently.

LuvPoison wrote...

They didn't think it was wrong for a light, fair, or white person to get tan or dark. But found it wrong for a tan, dark, or black person to bleach or lighten their skin.

 

And all you have to do to think this is hypocritical is to be completely ignorant of - wait for it - history, context, and reality.

White privilege - as ish mentioned earlier - includes the freedom to be completely ignorant of those things and not feel as though this fatally compromises ones argument.  But it does.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 12 juin 2012 - 07:19 .

[Flashflame58]

Filament wrote...

Flashflame58 wrote...


Racism is racism. It doesn't matter which race is targeted, it's still wrong.

That's an oversimplification. Well, I imagine someone like Sylvius could provide an exhaustive explanation for why culture doesn't exist, but for most others I suspect it amounts to burying one's head in the sand regarding the history and connotations of pain and marginalization from one type of racism compared to another, and the power inherent to one type of racism compared to another consequently. Like Ishmael said, context.

So no, parallel types of racism are not necessarily even remotely the same. Really, to think so and be consistent you would have to deny that institutionalized racism still exists. And then deny culture and history exist.

Do I agree with Sabariel that, toward whites it simply isn't racist? Not necessarily. But there's a wide gulf in gravity between the two. And it seems you don't really agree that either is racist, and you think pointing out a justified double-standard somehow makes that true.

Racism exists today becaose people can't learn to let go.
Yes, some of our forefathers were slaves/slaveowners. Should we forget this moment in history? Of course not. Instead, we should learn from it. Racism is pointless and is a plague on our existence. But it will only go away if we learn to move on and accept the past for what it is, THE PAST. And stop punishing us for the decisions our forefathers made.
But...that is a discussion for another time.

But yes, claiming that a mod to make a fair-skinned person dark-skinned is completely justified and no less "racist and disgusting" than a mod that makes a dark-skinned person into a fair-skinned person, is in fact racist, and just as racist as claiming the opposite.

[upsettingshorts]

Flashflame58 wrote...

Racism exists today becaose people can't learn to let go.

This argument has been so thoroughly discredited by every school of academic thought as to be considered laughably naive at best, and an active perpetuation of racism at worst.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 12 juin 2012 - 07:18 .

[AndrahilAdrian]

Filament wrote...

Flashflame58 wrote...


Racism is racism. It doesn't matter which race is targeted, it's still wrong.

That's an oversimplification. Well, I imagine someone like Sylvius could provide an exhaustive explanation for why culture doesn't exist, but for most others I suspect it amounts to burying one's head in the sand regarding the history and connotations of pain and marginalization from one type of racism compared to another, and the power inherent to one type of racism compared to another consequently. Like Ishmael said, context.

So no, parallel types of racism are not necessarily even remotely the same. Really, to think so and be consistent you would have to deny that institutionalized racism still exists. And then deny culture and history exist.

Do I agree with Sabariel that, toward whites it simply isn't racist? Not necessarily. But there's a wide gulf in gravity between the two. And it seems you don't really agree that either is racist, and you think pointing out a justified double-standard somehow makes that true.

I agree with this. In Thedas, the Rivaini have been brutally persecuted for years due to their tanned complexions. Pasty Fereldans and Marchers couldn't possibly understand what thats like. If you look at the lore of this computer game, it becomes apparent that the oppression the dark-skinned Rivaini and Antivans have suffered cannot possibly be compared to the light hearted teasing privelaged Fereldans imagine is "racism". As a result, a mod making Isabela pale is wrong because of the long history of oppression the swarthy have suffered in Thedas history, wheras making Aveline dark is perfectly fine because white power is the norm in the DA World. Institutionalised racism in the Dragon Age universe must be stopped.

Modifié par AndrahilAdrian, 12 juin 2012 - 07:23 .

[wsandista]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

wsandista wrote...

If there were a mod that [turned Aveline black] would it be better than turning Isabela white?

Unequivocally and without reservation, yes it would be.  Categorically.

Not all double standards are unreasonable, and not all double standards are hypocritical.  There is a clear distinction to be drawn by anyone willing to think critically.  The double standard with regards to what constitutes racism is - put simply - a justifiable response to wildly unequal history, context, and reality.  

Double standards - when they are in error - assume that all other things are equal.  When it comes to race, this is demonstrably not the case.  Ergo, the situations must be approached differently.

So you believe that Black people are not equal to White people?

That is really ****ed up.

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Flashflame58 wrote...

Racism exists today becaose people can't learn to let go.

This argument has been so thoroughly discredited by every school of academic thought as to be considered laughably naive at best, and an active perpetuation of racism at worst.

So judging all people of a certain ethnicity for something their ancestors did is ok?

Modifié par wsandista, 12 juin 2012 - 07:23 .

[Flashflame58]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Flashflame58 wrote...

Racism exists today becaose people can't learn to let go.

This argument has been so thoroughly discredited by every school of academic thought as to be considered laughably naive at best, and an active perpetuation of racism at worst.

I can't help that people are still so sensitive about things that happened decades ago.

[wsandista]

AndrahilAdrian wrote...

Filament wrote...

Flashflame58 wrote...


Racism is racism. It doesn't matter which race is targeted, it's still wrong.

That's an oversimplification. Well, I imagine someone like Sylvius could provide an exhaustive explanation for why culture doesn't exist, but for most others I suspect it amounts to burying one's head in the sand regarding the history and connotations of pain and marginalization from one type of racism compared to another, and the power inherent to one type of racism compared to another consequently. Like Ishmael said, context.

So no, parallel types of racism are not necessarily even remotely the same. Really, to think so and be consistent you would have to deny that institutionalized racism still exists. And then deny culture and history exist.

Do I agree with Sabariel that, toward whites it simply isn't racist? Not necessarily. But there's a wide gulf in gravity between the two. And it seems you don't really agree that either is racist, and you think pointing out a justified double-standard somehow makes that true.

I agree with this. In Thedas, the Rivaini have been brutally persecuted for years due to their tanned complexions. Pasty Fereldans and Marchers couldn't possibly understand what thats like. If you look at the lore of this computer game, it becomes apparent that the oppression the dark-skinned Rivaini and Antivans have suffered cannot possibly be compared to the light hearted teasing privelaged Fereldans imagine is "racism". As a result, a mod making Isabela pale is wrong because of the long history of oppression the swarthy have suffered in Thedas history, wheras making Aveline dark is perfectly fine because white power is the norm in the DA World. Institutionalised racism in the Dragon Age universe must be stopped.

+100
Sir I believe you are the winner of this thread.