313 réponses à ce sujet

[Ieldra]

aj2070 wrote...
As much as I have enjoyed watching Taboo and The Angry One lead the charge against synthesis, pro-synthesis people forget one thing. The reapers are synthesis personified so-to speak. Legion even says so in Mass Effect 2. Why would I want to make the entire galaxy and probably the entire universe (speculations for everyone) into reapers?

Not so. Legion says Reapers are uploaded and conjoined minds inhabiting a syntethic body. I can see no hint of the Crucible's Synthesis option in that.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 09 juin 2012 - 08:00 .

[The Angry One]

Ieldra2 wrote...

@The Angry One:
I'm still taking nobody's freedom away. People still have the same preferences, the same mind, the same tastes etc.. etc.. They may have a few more options for their lives. That's increasing your choices, not taking them away.

First: That's all conjecture.
Second: You've still changed them. Made an imposition on them. What if they don't want it? What if they'd rather die than be changed this way? Do you think Javik would be happy with this? What about the billions of beings on primitive planets who won't have a clue what's going on and be terrified.

You have no right to do this to anyone, and it takes away their freedom by altering them into another state, permanently.

[ghost9191]

Ieldra2 wrote...

I'm still taking nobody's freedom away. People still have the same preferences, the same mind, the same tastes etc.. etc.. They may have a few more options for their lives. That's increasing your choices, not taking them away.

you sure assume alot after only what 14 lines of dialogue


"When you assume, you make an ass out of you and me"   and by that you are taking a big chance on space magic with no info whatsoever

you are forcing people to become part synthetic part organic, that is taking away choice, maybe they don't want a new dna. maybe they don't want to become a hybrid of flesh and steel

Modifié par ghost9191, 09 juin 2012 - 08:03 .

[Taboo]

Ieldra2 wrote...

@The Angry One:
I'm still taking nobody's freedom away. People still have the same preferences, the same mind, the same tastes etc.. etc.. They may have a few more options for their lives. That's increasing your choices, not taking them away.

You don't get it. Which makes it even worse. There is nothing worse than someone in power who has no idea what they're doing.

Please stop and think about what you're saying.

Modifié par Taboo-XX, 09 juin 2012 - 08:00 .

[ghost9191]

The Angry One wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

@The Angry One:
I'm still taking nobody's freedom away. People still have the same preferences, the same mind, the same tastes etc.. etc.. They may have a few more options for their lives. That's increasing your choices, not taking them away.

First: That's all conjecture.
Second: You've still changed them. Made an imposition on them. What if they don't want it? What if they'd rather die than be changed this way? Do you think Javik would be happy with this? What about the billions of beings on primitive planets who won't have a clue what's going on and be terrified.

You have no right to do this to anyone, and it takes away their freedom by altering them into another state, permanently.

And the leaves, don't forget about the leaves

[Ieldra]

@Taboo:
Yeah, it's so satisfying telling the opposition they don't get it. Can it be, perhaps, that *you* don't get it?

[aj2070]

Ieldra2 wrote...

aj2070 wrote...
As much as I have enjoyed watching Taboo and The Angry One lead the charge against synthesis, pro-synthesis people forget one thing. The reapers are synthesis personified so-to speak. Legion even says so in Mass Effect 2. Why would I want to make the entire galaxy and probably the entire universe (speculations for everyone) into reapers?

Not so. Legion says Reapers are uploaded and conjoined minds inhabiting a syntethic body. I can see no hint of the Crucible's Synthesis option in that.

And that is part of my personal problem with synthesis.  Every choice I made in game was based on in-game information.  The closest we get to synthesis in game is the reapers.  If I am going to decide the very nature of life, I want more than an awkward silence to the question of "will there be peace?"

In the name of full disclosure, I initially selected synthesis as my ending but came to detest it.

[frylock23]

Ok, the thread has become tl;dr, so I apologize if I restate someone else al ready said, but I don't think that synthesis and its themes were adequately presented or set up in order to be workable in this game series.

I feel like Walters and Hudson felt like they needed at least three ending options and that this was the hot new idea in their heads. Instead of doing the responsible thing and using that idea in their next IP where it could be explored properly and thoroughly, they squashed it into a place where it really doesn't make any sense. It's set up poorly and done in such a way that it's all too easy to draw any number of negative and vaguely sinister implications from it once you start to really think about what it all means.

Seriously, human history is littered with the regimes of those who promise us utopia if only we sacrifice some to the greater good of all. It's just a small step from there to synthesis where we collectively sacrifice our humanity to the greater universal good, and it's all done autocratically at the behest of a single individual instead of being presented as a personal/individual choice. I'm not sure why so many fail to see the parallels.

Now, to be perfectly clear, I completely understand the feelings some have that becoming augmented or transhuman may be a desirable or positive thing. Given the options, I might find it an interesting or viable option for myself someday, but I draw the line at the idea that it is perfectly admissable to take what might be a good thing for me and assume that it would likewise be of benefit or desirable to everyone else and thus should be done to them whether they would or no.

But, I digress. They really should have saved synthesis for another project where it could be explored because it really is a much more complicated topic than can be adequately explained in a mere 14 lines of dialogue spanning about 5 minutes.

[Taboo]

Pro-Synthesis logic.

"Success is the sole earthly judge of right and wrong."

[Taboo]

Ieldra2 wrote...

@Taboo:
Yeah, it's so satisfying telling the opposition they don't get it. Can it be, perhaps, that *you* don't get it?

I "got it" my Freshman year of High School when a student put a bullet through his head because people wanted him to be something else.

[Reorte]

If someone was about to impose synthesis on me right now I'd be horrified and do everything I could to stop them. And I'm sure as hell not alone in that. Whatever the benefits of it who the hell are you to force it on me?

[dreamgazer]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Yeah, it's so satisfying telling the opposition they don't get it. Can it be, perhaps, that *you* don't get it?

Having a blunt attitude towards the other two options does not mean that they don't have a fully-functioning, philosophically-aware grasp of the theoreticals that elevate them to desirable options.

[Joe Del Toro]

The Angry One wrote...

You've still changed them. Made an imposition on them. What if they don't want it? What if they'd rather die than be changed this way? Do you think Javik would be happy with this? What about the billions of beings on primitive planets who won't have a clue what's going on and be terrified.

You have no right to do this to anyone, and it takes away their freedom by altering them into another state, permanently.

People need to read the hell out of this. I have never seen a single counterargument to this that wasn't pure f*cking guesswork and missing the point entirely.

Modifié par Joe Del Toro, 09 juin 2012 - 08:09 .

[dreamgazer]

Taboo-XX wrote...

I "got it" my Freshman year of High School when a student put a bullet through his head because people wanted him to be something else.

It's wrong to mention this, but I'm not touching why. 

[aj2070]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Pro-Synthesis logic.

"Success is the sole earthly judge of right and wrong."

<snip>

Didn't Jeff Goldblum say something like that in Jurassic Park...

"Yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether they could that they didn't stop to think if they should." 

-Dr. Ian Malcolm

@ Frylock23 - well said.

Modifié par aj2070, 09 juin 2012 - 08:15 .

[aj2070]

Double post...

Modifié par aj2070, 09 juin 2012 - 08:12 .

[frylock23]

dreamgazer wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

I "got it" my Freshman year of High School when a student put a bullet through his head because people wanted him to be something else.

It's wrong to mention this, but I'm not touching why. 

I know what the obvious assumption these days would be, but there are lots of reasons really.

[dreamgazer]

aj2070 wrote...

Didn't Jeff Goldblum say something like that in Jurassic Park...

Yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether they could that they didn't stop to think if they should. 

Yes, yes, he did, and that's one of the points where Goldblum's Dr. Malcolm wormed his way into my registry of supporting characters that I deeply admire. 

[Taboo]

frylock23 wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

I "got it" my Freshman year of High School when a student put a bullet through his head because people wanted him to be something else.

It's wrong to mention this, but I'm not touching why. 

I know what the obvious assumption these days would be, but there are lots of reasons really.

That event shook me to the core. He went into a school bathroom to do it.

If I learned anything from that event, it was that no one's way of life was incorrect and that people are fine just the way they are.

[frylock23]

Jurassic Park may have been a not very good movie, but Dr. Malcolm makes it worthwhile.

[Taboo]

I know the guy who produced it.

[Joe Del Toro]

Taboo-XX wrote...

If I learned anything from that event, it was that no one's way of life was incorrect and that people are fine just the way they are.

Unless a Symbiote's available. Then I'm all over that sh*t.

[dreamgazer]

Taboo-XX wrote...

frylock23 wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

I "got it" my Freshman year of High School when a student put a bullet through his head because people wanted him to be something else.

It's wrong to mention this, but I'm not touching why. 

I know what the obvious assumption these days would be, but there are lots of reasons really.

That event shook me to the core. He went into a school bathroom to do it.

If I learned anything from that event, it was that no one's way of life was incorrect and that people are fine just the way they are.

Like I said, I'm not touching that.  I realize that it could be a byproduct of synthesis, but it shouldn't be used as moral evidence in this conversation.  It's playing dirty, and biased, and inaccurately. 

[dreamgazer]

Taboo-XX wrote...

I know the guy who produced it.

Woo-hoo. Good for you.

It would be wise to stop playing that card, dude. 

[Taboo]

It's no worse than the Synthesis people playing the genocide card. If they want to play dirty I'm game.

Forcing people to see things is unacceptable.

The Geth are dead in my playthrough. I bear no responsibility for their deaths in Destroy.