295 réponses à ce sujet

[filetemo]

The IT is Bioware's best weapon against fan rage. Dismissing it during the ****storm would cause an even bigger ****storm. That's why they do not dismiss it and why they sent Chris Priestly to tease people over the HTL forums.

[covertdrizzt]

This thread was an interesting read. I didn't know that there were people who don't think that TIM or maybe the starchild are trying to Indoctrinate shepard. Why else would shepard shoot anderson? Why does the screen get all weird?

[Seboist]

The basis for the "IT" can be best summed up with the "Four D's"; Despair,Delusion,Denial,Disapointment.

Modifié par Seboist, 10 juin 2012 - 10:52 .

[filetemo]

Seboist wrote...

The basis for the "IT" can be best summed up with the "Four D's"; Despair,Delusion,Denial,Disapointment.

Dumbed Down, DLC, DRM, Deadlines...

[jsadalia]

Grimwick wrote...

Personally I think they will completely ignore IT as a part of the EC.

Completely ignore it.

[SackofCat]

How many symptoms of indoctrination does Shepard display?

In any of the Mass Effect stories, are there any precedents for a character entering a complete dream world in their mind while also being unaware that it isn't real?

Wasn't indoctrination always implied (and stated) to weaken the subjects will and make them open to suggestion rather than trying to trick the subject into believing what the reapers want them to believe?

How can some parts of the ending (TIM controlling Shepard and Anderson's motor functions) be used as evidence of indoctrination if the ending didn't happen in (ME) reality but in Shepard's head?

[dreman9999]

SackofCat wrote...

How many symptoms of indoctrination does Shepard display?

In any of the Mass Effect stories, are there any precedents for a character entering a complete dream world in their mind while also being unaware that it isn't real?

Wasn't indoctrination always implied (and stated) to weaken the subjects will and make them open to suggestion rather than trying to trick the subject into believing what the reapers want them to believe?

How can some parts of the ending (TIM controlling Shepard and Anderson's motor functions) be used as evidence of indoctrination if the ending didn't happen in (ME) reality but in Shepard's head?

1. Buzzing noises, whispers, oily shadows, strong sense of something not right. Hallucination is the one he did not get, but that canbe the star child.

2.
Fun fact...There 3 theories for IT. 

[dreman9999]

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

Because Indoctranation is used to move the plot fordward that does not mean its true, also there are many things in the Final Hours App, that doesn't mean their secretly put into the game. I have yet to hear evidence that I can't prove wrong completely...

Huh.  Sorry, but you haven't proven anything wrong to me. 

That's subjective, my friend.  Thinking it's an objective dismissal would be inaccurate and presumptuous. 

Because you haven't supplied mw with anything to prove wrong, tell me something that I won't be able to prove me wrong and I will, and If I give you absolute proof its wrong and you don't want to accept that, thats you being close-minded.

and that's a two-way street. We could tell you something and if you don't want to accept it, you'd be close-minded too. We're just two sides of the same coin.

The difference is I would accept it if it made sense. If you showed me a the color blue and it was red I wouldn't accept it, trust me I want to believe IT but I can't because its made out of speculations and if BW uses it, is because they think its the only way to fix the endings or because they're afraid of the backlash of the IT supporters. Now please supply with something.

TIM controling Shepard and Anderson with Indoctriantion.

[SackofCat]

Hey Dreman,
If you can't be bothered to answer questions about your interpretation, how about just the last question I asked. It seems pertinent because you seem to be doing what that question specifies so you would be in a great place to answer that.

If we assume that the TIM, Shepard, and Anderson scene occured in real (ME) life and not just in Shepard's head, then we have no evidence of what exactly TIM was doing in that scene. You keep saying that he is controlling them through indoctrination. Is there any actual proof of this? It sounds like you are making an assumption then challenging people to explain it.

[CroGamer002]

There's no middle ground with IT.

It's either in alone or out.



But thankfully, that poorly written fanfiction ain't gonna happen.

[Helios969]

Mesina2 wrote...

There's no middle ground with IT.

It's either in alone or out.



But thankfully, that poorly written fanfiction ain't gonna happen.

That's not really true...the middle ground.  I think it could be true, but I also think the literal ending could be the original intent.  IDT is merely a way to try and make sense of an ending that makes little.  A person can also think that it holds merit, but BW's implementation of it was poor.

I'm also under no illusion that whatever the original intent was - IDT or literal, that's what the EC will support and attempt to clarify to fans.  Honestly, either way, I don't see anyway they go turning ME3 around into some great space epic.  At best we can hope they salvage it and repair some of the damage done.  I'm in favor of IDT only from the standpoint of salvaging the universe for possible future installments.

[Xenite]

At this point I find it hard to believe how anyone with two brain cells could deny the IT theory.

Numerous people have posted a slew of circumstantial evidence and some is flat out pulled from ME lore on indoctrination.

Nobody ever see's the kid besides Shepard.
The kid runs through a locked door.
The kid is always standing by warning signs.
Reaper growls when Anderson interrupts the kid/Shepard. (book confirms this is common)
Rachni queens mention oily shadows, an effect that is used over and over in ME3
Shep would have been killed by the blast
Shep has a gun with infinite ammo and no reload
Com voice says everyone is dead and they magically miss shep and Anderson going into the beam.
The Citadel has magically morphed into parts of other ships that Shep has experienced.
Anderson magically gets ahead of Shepard even though their is no other way to the console.
TIM can somehow magically control humans now.
Shepard receives the gunshot wound he inflicts on Anderson.
Hackett someone magically knows Shepard is alive and communicates with him.
The ghost kid... don't get me started here on the choices being illogical and flat out dumb.
Joker somehow magically hitting a mass relay before the explosion.
Joker just happens to crash land on a garden planet.... where....
Your crew who was with you on the ground have magically been teleported!

So either IT is true OR Bioware was massively incompetent with the last 10 minutes of their flagship franchise. If the latter is true, then the EC is meaningless as I have lost all trust in them as developers.

Modifié par Xenite, 11 juin 2012 - 11:36 .

[dreman9999]

SackofCat wrote...

Hey Dreman,
If you can't be bothered to answer questions about your interpretation, how about just the last question I asked. It seems pertinent because you seem to be doing what that question specifies so you would be in a great place to answer that.

If we assume that the TIM, Shepard, and Anderson scene occured in real (ME) life and not just in Shepard's head, then we have no evidence of what exactly TIM was doing in that scene. You keep saying that he is controlling them through indoctrination. Is there any actual proof of this? It sounds like you are making an assumption then challenging people to explain it.

The key point here are the symtoms of indoctriantation. It matter not if it real or not. But with the symtoms of indoctrination there, it's still proof of outside manipulation ofShepards mind.
And Besides, there 3 theories of indoctrination:
Dream
Hallucination
influence...

The scene can be real or not real. IT doen't say that the scene is not real, it's just stating that Shepard is being manipualted in it one way or the other.

[dreman9999]

Helios969 wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...

There's no middle ground with IT.

It's either in alone or out.



But thankfully, that poorly written fanfiction ain't gonna happen.

That's not really true...the middle ground.  I think it could be true, but I also think the literal ending could be the original intent.  IDT is merely a way to try and make sense of an ending that makes little.  A person can also think that it holds merit, but BW's implementation of it was poor.

I'm also under no illusion that whatever the original intent was - IDT or literal, that's what the EC will support and attempt to clarify to fans.  Honestly, either way, I don't see anyway they go turning ME3 around into some great space epic.  At best we can hope they salvage it and repair some of the damage done.  I'm in favor of IDT only from the standpoint of salvaging the universe for possible future installments.

He's right. Based of the nature of indoctrination there can't me a middle ground. Think of indoctrination as someone with the master key to every door in yourhouse and you'll understand.

[Helios969]

dreman9999 wrote...

Helios969 wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...

There's no middle ground with IT.

It's either in alone or out.



But thankfully, that poorly written fanfiction ain't gonna happen.

That's not really true...the middle ground.  I think it could be true, but I also think the literal ending could be the original intent.  IDT is merely a way to try and make sense of an ending that makes little.  A person can also think that it holds merit, but BW's implementation of it was poor.

I'm also under no illusion that whatever the original intent was - IDT or literal, that's what the EC will support and attempt to clarify to fans.  Honestly, either way, I don't see anyway they go turning ME3 around into some great space epic.  At best we can hope they salvage it and repair some of the damage done.  I'm in favor of IDT only from the standpoint of salvaging the universe for possible future installments.

He's right. Based of the nature of indoctrination there can't me a middle ground. Think of indoctrination as someone with the master key to every door in yourhouse and you'll understand.

Perhaps I don't understand posters intent of statement.  I believe IDT is plausible and support it, but I think a lot of what is presented as "evidence" is beyond absurd and can be attributed to simple oversight.  I can also listen to counterarguments with an open mind.  If someone makes a good point I can say "good point" and not "you're too dumb to get it."

But if middle ground means an ending somewhere between IDT and literal endings (must be proof synthesis is the right choice;) being true, yeah, hard to see how that would work.

[dreman9999]

Helios969 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Helios969 wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...

There's no middle ground with IT.

It's either in alone or out.



But thankfully, that poorly written fanfiction ain't gonna happen.

That's not really true...the middle ground.  I think it could be true, but I also think the literal ending could be the original intent.  IDT is merely a way to try and make sense of an ending that makes little.  A person can also think that it holds merit, but BW's implementation of it was poor.

I'm also under no illusion that whatever the original intent was - IDT or literal, that's what the EC will support and attempt to clarify to fans.  Honestly, either way, I don't see anyway they go turning ME3 around into some great space epic.  At best we can hope they salvage it and repair some of the damage done.  I'm in favor of IDT only from the standpoint of salvaging the universe for possible future installments.

He's right. Based of the nature of indoctrination there can't me a middle ground. Think of indoctrination as someone with the master key to every door in yourhouse and you'll understand.

Perhaps I don't understand posters intent of statement.  I believe IDT is plausible and support it, but I think a lot of what is presented as "evidence" is beyond absurd and can be attributed to simple oversight.  I can also listen to counterarguments with an open mind.  If someone makes a good point I can say "good point" and not "you're too dumb to get it."

But if middle ground means an ending somewhere between IDT and literal endings (must be proof synthesis is the right choice;) being true, yeah, hard to see how that would work.

I can agree with that but we still have things like the indoctrination documetary that goes over every piece of evidence in detail to see if it pluasible...Note how in it he says the tree's and the srubs are not stable evidence.
There still the rest of the stable evidence in circulation.
But realing. There is no middle ground to IT , because the question on where Shepard is beinginfluence by the reapers in the lastmoments will always be at mind.

[Helios969]

dreman9999 wrote...

Helios969 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Helios969 wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...

There's no middle ground with IT.

It's either in alone or out.



But thankfully, that poorly written fanfiction ain't gonna happen.

That's not really true...the middle ground.  I think it could be true, but I also think the literal ending could be the original intent.  IDT is merely a way to try and make sense of an ending that makes little.  A person can also think that it holds merit, but BW's implementation of it was poor.

I'm also under no illusion that whatever the original intent was - IDT or literal, that's what the EC will support and attempt to clarify to fans.  Honestly, either way, I don't see anyway they go turning ME3 around into some great space epic.  At best we can hope they salvage it and repair some of the damage done.  I'm in favor of IDT only from the standpoint of salvaging the universe for possible future installments.

He's right. Based of the nature of indoctrination there can't me a middle ground. Think of indoctrination as someone with the master key to every door in yourhouse and you'll understand.

Perhaps I don't understand posters intent of statement.  I believe IDT is plausible and support it, but I think a lot of what is presented as "evidence" is beyond absurd and can be attributed to simple oversight.  I can also listen to counterarguments with an open mind.  If someone makes a good point I can say "good point" and not "you're too dumb to get it."

But if middle ground means an ending somewhere between IDT and literal endings (must be proof synthesis is the right choice;) being true, yeah, hard to see how that would work.

I can agree with that but we still have things like the indoctrination documetary that goes over every piece of evidence in detail to see if it pluasible...Note how in it he says the tree's and the srubs are not stable evidence.
There still the rest of the stable evidence in circulation.
But realing. There is no middle ground to IT , because the question on where Shepard is beinginfluence by the reapers in the lastmoments will always be at mind.

Yep.  I went into that documentary very skeptical...ready to shred it apart, but was pleasantly surprised by how well thought out it was and executed.  Don't necessarily agree with everything the guy chalked up as confirmed proof, but there was enough there to gain my support.  And frankly it makes more sense than a literal interpretation (I am prepared mentally for the worst though:)

[dreman9999]

ChookAttack wrote...

I don't actually care if the IT is intended or not, it wont restore my interest in replaying ME3 either way. If it's true, the game was deliberately released without an ending. If it isn't true, then my opinion of Bioware's ability to create good plot/story lines is diminished.

But, what I find interesting is that if evidence of Shep being indoctrinated is to be taken seriously, it must be applied equally to all in game characters. Garrus has been with my Shep from the beginning. Given that Shep is supposedly extremely strong willed, thus allowing him to resist indoctrination for the entirety of the trilogy, then surely Garrus, Liara and Tali have been indoctrinated to an even greater extent given their lesser wills, and given that they have been exposed to the reaper influence just as much as Shep in many people's games.

Why are these other ingame characters not indoctrinated? If IT is not evidenced to apply to those characters, then it can not be rationally applied to any character, including Shep.

If you're on this forum still then you still have intrest in the game.

[christrek1982]

Grimwick wrote...

Personally I think they will completely ignore IT as a part of the EC.

Completely ignore it.

I don't think anyone who wand more than a slidshow saying what hapend EG Shepard reunion or anything alond the lines are going to be disapointede so IT has little to no chance I'm sory to say.

[jijeebo]

ChookAttack wrote...

I don't actually care if the IT is intended or not, it wont restore my interest in replaying ME3 either way. If it's true, the game was deliberately released without an ending. If it isn't true, then my opinion of Bioware's ability to create good plot/story lines is diminished.

But, what I find interesting is that if evidence of Shep being indoctrinated is to be taken seriously, it must be applied equally to all in game characters. Garrus has been with my Shep from the beginning. Given that Shep is supposedly extremely strong willed, thus allowing him to resist indoctrination for the entirety of the trilogy, then surely Garrus, Liara and Tali have been indoctrinated to an even greater extent given their lesser wills, and given that they have been exposed to the reaper influence just as much as Shep in many people's games.

Why are these other ingame characters not indoctrinated? If IT is not evidenced to apply to those characters, then it can not be rationally applied to any character, including Shep.

Could you imagine the backlash if they'd turned around in ME3 and indoctrinated Garrus?

I think the internet would've literally exploded.

[DeamonSlaz]

Nothing will change. The EC DLC will be this: A 5 minute clip that adds or removes certain clips depending on x or y choice. It will not really give us anything other then allow for a tonn of speculation/arguments, etc, but in reality, give us nothing new to go on. It will NOT defend IT because that is a fan based concept that takes light of all the flaws in the game.

This EC will DEFEND the current endings and make them 'clearer'.

I truly doubt this and think Bioware is just further screwing the pooch and we'll be swallowing whatever cruel gruel they feed us. There is nothing we can do. This is THEIR game. Not ours. Its not like we invested time, blood, sweat and tears into the game. Forget those heart wrenching scenes when you sacrificed Kaiden/Ashley, forget that moment Sovereign decided to have a chat with you on Virmire, forget the revulsion you felt at the Collector Base, forget the tingly retro style boss fight at the end of ME 2. Just forget it all. Because ultimately, these moments do not amount to anything other then a forced death upon Sheppard and the futile moment you know that its one of three. One of three and choose your own Hell.

I no longer feel like Sheppard is an actual sheppard guiding the universe to a whole new level of peace and understanding, but a mass genocidal war criminal that I am disgusted to have played, I feel disconnected from my Hero and began to wonder if that really was my hero. I mean he was a Paragon. He tried to do right. He tried to show off the best traits in Humanity. And in the end, he still ends up murdering EDI and annihilating the Geth and who knows what else.

Sigh. EC is a joke. It will solve nothing and create more problems because Bioware truly does not understand.

Modifié par DeamonSlaz, 11 juin 2012 - 01:06 .

[dreman9999]

DeamonSlaz wrote...

Nothing will change. The EC DLC will be this: A 5 minute clip that adds or removes certain clips depending on x or y choice. It will not really give us anything other then allow for a tonn of speculation/arguments, etc, but in reality, give us nothing new to go on. It will NOT defend IT because that is a fan based concept that takes light of all the flaws in the game.

This EC will DEFEND the current endings and make them 'clearer'.

I truly doubt this and think Bioware is just further screwing the pooch and we'll be swallowing whatever cruel gruel they feed us. There is nothing we can do. This is THEIR game. Not ours. Its not like we invested time, blood, sweat and tears into the game. Forget those heart wrenching scenes when you sacrificed Kaiden/Ashley, forget that moment Sovereign decided to have a chat with you on Virmire, forget the revulsion you felt at the Collector Base, forget the tingly retro style boss fight at the end of ME 2. Just forget it all. Because ultimately, these moments do not amount to anything other then a forced death upon Sheppard and the futile moment you know that its one of three. One of three and choose your own Hell.

I no longer feel like Sheppard is an actual sheppard guiding the universe to a whole new level of peace and understanding, but a mass genocidal war criminal that I am disgusted to have played, I feel disconnected from my Hero and began to wonder if that really was my hero. I mean he was a Paragon. He tried to do right. He tried to show off the best traits in Humanity. And in the end, he still ends up murdering EDI and annihilating the Geth and who knows what else.

Sigh. EC is a joke. It will solve nothing and create more problems because Bioware truly does not understand.

How on earth will ec be nothing much with this much VO and time put on it?