295 réponses à ce sujet

[SubAstris]

DeamonSlaz wrote...

Nothing will change. The EC DLC will be this: A 5 minute clip that adds or removes certain clips depending on x or y choice. It will not really give us anything other then allow for a tonn of speculation/arguments, etc, but in reality, give us nothing new to go on. It will NOT defend IT because that is a fan based concept that takes light of all the flaws in the game.

This EC will DEFEND the current endings and make them 'clearer'.

I truly doubt this and think Bioware is just further screwing the pooch and we'll be swallowing whatever cruel gruel they feed us. There is nothing we can do. This is THEIR game. Not ours. Its not like we invested time, blood, sweat and tears into the game. Forget those heart wrenching scenes when you sacrificed Kaiden/Ashley, forget that moment Sovereign decided to have a chat with you on Virmire, forget the revulsion you felt at the Collector Base, forget the tingly retro style boss fight at the end of ME 2. Just forget it all. Because ultimately, these moments do not amount to anything other then a forced death upon Sheppard and the futile moment you know that its one of three. One of three and choose your own Hell.

I no longer feel like Sheppard is an actual sheppard guiding the universe to a whole new level of peace and understanding, but a mass genocidal war criminal that I am disgusted to have played, I feel disconnected from my Hero and began to wonder if that really was my hero. I mean he was a Paragon. He tried to do right. He tried to show off the best traits in Humanity. And in the end, he still ends up murdering EDI and annihilating the Geth and who knows what else.

Sigh. EC is a joke. It will solve nothing and create more problems because Bioware truly does not understand.

I think BW have learned their lesson to a large extent. They realise the fan outcry. Likelihood is there will be that they explain everything in much more detail, such as the Catalyst. If you listen to what they say in the Final Hours App, they wanted the Catalyst to say a lot more, but felt it wasn't necessary. Now people want to know, they will definitely put it in.

Hero have to make tough choices, otherwise, they wouldn't be heroes

[SubAstris]

[quote]dreman9999 wrote...

[/quote]I can agree with that but we still have things like the indoctrination documetary that goes over every piece of evidence in detail to see if it pluasible...Note how in it he says the tree's and the srubs are not stable evidence.
There still the rest of the stable evidence in circulation.
But realing. There is no middle ground to IT , because the question on where Shepard is beinginfluence by the reapers in the lastmoments will always be at mind.

[/quote]

If it is the same documentary I watched, it is far from objective. He brings some good points but especially towards the end of the video he just seems to let anything slide.

[jsadalia]

DeamonSlaz wrote...

Nothing will change. The EC DLC will be this: A 5 minute clip that adds or removes certain clips depending on x or y choice. It will not really give us anything other then allow for a tonn of speculation/arguments, etc, but in reality, give us nothing new to go on. It will NOT defend IT because that is a fan based concept that takes light of all the flaws in the game.

This EC will DEFEND the current endings and make them 'clearer'.

I truly doubt this and think Bioware is just further screwing the pooch and we'll be swallowing whatever cruel gruel they feed us. There is nothing we can do. This is THEIR game. Not ours. Its not like we invested time, blood, sweat and tears into the game. Forget those heart wrenching scenes when you sacrificed Kaiden/Ashley, forget that moment Sovereign decided to have a chat with you on Virmire, forget the revulsion you felt at the Collector Base, forget the tingly retro style boss fight at the end of ME 2. Just forget it all. Because ultimately, these moments do not amount to anything other then a forced death upon Sheppard and the futile moment you know that its one of three. One of three and choose your own Hell.

I no longer feel like Sheppard is an actual sheppard guiding the universe to a whole new level of peace and understanding, but a mass genocidal war criminal that I am disgusted to have played, I feel disconnected from my Hero and began to wonder if that really was my hero. I mean he was a Paragon. He tried to do right. He tried to show off the best traits in Humanity. And in the end, he still ends up murdering EDI and annihilating the Geth and who knows what else.

Sigh. EC is a joke. It will solve nothing and create more problems because Bioware truly does not understand.

Shepard sacrificing his/her self to save trillions of lives seems like a perfectly acceptable ending to me.

And choosing Destroy was your decision. The consequences were made clear. There were two other choices for your Paragon Shepard.

[dreman9999]

@SubAstris

I'm sorry? The last points he brought was stable proof. He was being very objective and cleared up alot of mess that people thought were key point. That doctumatary is the reason why so many peole are for IT. It cleaned upthe points of the theory.

[dreman9999]

jsadalia wrote...

DeamonSlaz wrote...

Nothing will change. The EC DLC will be this: A 5 minute clip that adds or removes certain clips depending on x or y choice. It will not really give us anything other then allow for a tonn of speculation/arguments, etc, but in reality, give us nothing new to go on. It will NOT defend IT because that is a fan based concept that takes light of all the flaws in the game.

This EC will DEFEND the current endings and make them 'clearer'.

I truly doubt this and think Bioware is just further screwing the pooch and we'll be swallowing whatever cruel gruel they feed us. There is nothing we can do. This is THEIR game. Not ours. Its not like we invested time, blood, sweat and tears into the game. Forget those heart wrenching scenes when you sacrificed Kaiden/Ashley, forget that moment Sovereign decided to have a chat with you on Virmire, forget the revulsion you felt at the Collector Base, forget the tingly retro style boss fight at the end of ME 2. Just forget it all. Because ultimately, these moments do not amount to anything other then a forced death upon Sheppard and the futile moment you know that its one of three. One of three and choose your own Hell.

I no longer feel like Sheppard is an actual sheppard guiding the universe to a whole new level of peace and understanding, but a mass genocidal war criminal that I am disgusted to have played, I feel disconnected from my Hero and began to wonder if that really was my hero. I mean he was a Paragon. He tried to do right. He tried to show off the best traits in Humanity. And in the end, he still ends up murdering EDI and annihilating the Geth and who knows what else.

Sigh. EC is a joke. It will solve nothing and create more problems because Bioware truly does not understand.

Shepard sacrificing his/her self to save trillions of lives seems like a perfectly acceptable ending to me.

And choosing Destroy was your decision. The consequences were made clear. There were two other choices for your Paragon Shepard.

1.How do you know that the star child is telling the truth?
2. How do you know what you see in the end is real?
3. How do you know if the reapers are not messing with your mind?

Have you yet to ask yourself these questions?

Are you really trying to give a baseless absolute on vague statements? How can you tale "vague" as literal?

[jsadalia]

dreman9999 wrote...

jsadalia wrote...

[Shepard sacrificing his/her self to save trillions of lives seems like a perfectly acceptable ending to me.

And choosing Destroy was your decision. The consequences were made clear. There were two other choices for your Paragon Shepard.

1.How do you know that the star child is telling the truth?
2. How do you know what you see in the end is real?
3. How do you know if the reapers are not messing with your mind?

Have you yet to ask yourself these questions?

Are you really trying to give a baseless absolute on vague statements? How can you tale "vague" as literal?

I have asked those questions.  I don't believe in IT.  I think it's silly.

You're welcome to believe whatever you want, however.

[dreman9999]

jsadalia wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

jsadalia wrote...

[Shepard sacrificing his/her self to save trillions of lives seems like a perfectly acceptable ending to me.

And choosing Destroy was your decision. The consequences were made clear. There were two other choices for your Paragon Shepard.

1.How do you know that the star child is telling the truth?
2. How do you know what you see in the end is real?
3. How do you know if the reapers are not messing with your mind?

Have you yet to ask yourself these questions?

Are you really trying to give a baseless absolute on vague statements? How can you tale "vague" as literal?

I have asked those questions.  I don't believe in IT.  I think it's silly.

You're welcome to believe whatever you want, however.

How is something established from ME1 an comfermed in ME2 as something the reapers want to do to Shepard, Silly?
Harbinger literaly guns after Shepard wanting to take control of Shepard in ME2. Yet in ME3 the though of the reaper succeeding to get there influence in Shepard is "silly"?

Modifié par dreman9999, 11 juin 2012 - 02:56 .

[jsadalia]

dreman9999 wrote...

jsadalia wrote... I have asked those questions.  I don't believe in IT.  I think it's silly.

You're welcome to believe whatever you want, however.

How is something established from ME1 an comfermed in ME2 as something the reapers want to do to Shepard, Silly?
Harbinger literaly guns after Shepard wanting to take control of Shepard in ME2. Yet in ME3 the though of the reaper succeeding to get there influence in Shepard is "silly"?

I know you enjoy repeatedly stabbing at the minutiae of this debate, but by now I have no interest in it at all.

I think IT is silly.

You're welcome to believe whatever you want.

Modifié par jsadalia, 11 juin 2012 - 03:01 .

[dreman9999]

jsadalia wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...


]

jsadalia wrote... I have asked those questions.  I don't believe in IT.  I think it's silly.

You're welcome to believe whatever you want, however.

How is something established from ME1 an comfermed in ME2 as something the reapers want to do to Shepard, Silly?
Harbinger literaly guns after Shepard wanting to take control of Shepard in ME2. Yet in ME3 the though of the reaper succeeding to get there influence in Shepard is "silly"?

I know you enjoy repeatedly stabbing at the minutiae of this debate, but by now I have no interest in it at all.

I think IT is silly.

You're welcome to believe whatever you want.

Just like an averge ANTI-ITER...Says it's silly and can't even give a reason why.

[jsadalia]

dreman9999 wrote...

jsadalia wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...


]

jsadalia wrote... I have asked those questions.  I don't believe in IT.  I think it's silly.

You're welcome to believe whatever you want, however.

How is something established from ME1 an comfermed in ME2 as something the reapers want to do to Shepard, Silly?
Harbinger literaly guns after Shepard wanting to take control of Shepard in ME2. Yet in ME3 the though of the reaper succeeding to get there influence in Shepard is "silly"?

I know you enjoy repeatedly stabbing at the minutiae of this debate, but by now I have no interest in it at all.

I think IT is silly.

You're welcome to believe whatever you want.

Just like an averge ANTI-ITER...Says it's silly and can't even give a reason why.

The degree to which you enjoy, or indeed demand, argument on this subject is really not healthy.

Believe what you want. Please don't act like a dick if people choose not to play with you.

[SubAstris]

dreman9999 wrote...

jsadalia wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

jsadalia wrote...

[Shepard sacrificing his/her self to save trillions of lives seems like a perfectly acceptable ending to me.

And choosing Destroy was your decision. The consequences were made clear. There were two other choices for your Paragon Shepard.

1.How do you know that the star child is telling the truth?
2. How do you know what you see in the end is real?
3. How do you know if the reapers are not messing with your mind?

Have you yet to ask yourself these questions?

Are you really trying to give a baseless absolute on vague statements? How can you tale "vague" as literal?

I have asked those questions.  I don't believe in IT.  I think it's silly.

You're welcome to believe whatever you want, however.

How is something established from ME1 an comfermed in ME2 as something the reapers want to do to Shepard, Silly?
Harbinger literaly guns after Shepard wanting to take control of Shepard in ME2. Yet in ME3 the though of the reaper succeeding to get there influence in Shepard is "silly"?

You seem to be perenially making the same mistake; the fact that Shepard can be indoctrinated doesn't means actually mean he is being so. I can anticipate an answer along the lines of "but there's plenty of evidence that he is indoctrinated such as", but this isn't about evidence, there is about faulty logic.

[SubAstris]

dreman9999 wrote...

@SubAstris

I'm sorry? The last points he brought was stable proof. He was being very objective and cleared up alot of mess that people thought were key point. That doctumatary is the reason why so many peole are for IT. It cleaned upthe points of the theory.

In that case, what documentary exactly are you talking about? Link?

[dreman9999]

SubAstris wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

@SubAstris

I'm sorry? The last points he brought was stable proof. He was being very objective and cleared up alot of mess that people thought were key point. That doctumatary is the reason why so many peole are for IT. It cleaned upthe points of the theory.

In that case, what documentary exactly are you talking about? Link?

How very sarcatic of you.

[dreman9999]

jsadalia wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

jsadalia wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...


]

jsadalia wrote... I have asked those questions.  I don't believe in IT.  I think it's silly.

You're welcome to believe whatever you want, however.

How is something established from ME1 an comfermed in ME2 as something the reapers want to do to Shepard, Silly?
Harbinger literaly guns after Shepard wanting to take control of Shepard in ME2. Yet in ME3 the though of the reaper succeeding to get there influence in Shepard is "silly"?

I know you enjoy repeatedly stabbing at the minutiae of this debate, but by now I have no interest in it at all.

I think IT is silly.

You're welcome to believe whatever you want.

Just like an averge ANTI-ITER...Says it's silly and can't even give a reason why.

The degree to which you enjoy, or indeed demand, argument on this subject is really not healthy.

Believe what you want. Please don't act like a dick if people choose not to play with you.

If you don't want to be bothered...Don't post.

[Slayer299]

It will be interesting to see if BW takes the IT theory and runs with it since that was obviously not their plan to begin with. Because which ever way they decide to run it will be interesting (and not in a good way), since I don't see IT being the answer with making the ending was obviously that and the pissed-off people when it proves to not be the 'true' ending.

[Iecerint]

The documentary is not the best way to experience the IT theory IMO. The author has compiled in 1 hour and 30 minutes sundry points supporting IT. It's persuasive, but he gets really bogged down in the minor points, which ends up overshadowing the big, salient 4-5 things that make IT so clearly foreshadowed and intended (at least at some stage of development). He also presents solid points with circular logic and annoying rhetorical devices ("You have to admit that..." and such).

I think Bioware will find a way to hybridize the two endings to avoid alienating parts of the fanbase.

For example, maybe Harbinger/Catalyst/Whoever is indoctrinating Shepard in the final scene and trying to influence him toward Control/Synthesis, but Shepard is nonetheless TOTALLY ABLE to Destroy the Reapers by picking Red, even in whatever version of reality he's experiencing. This minimizes the amount of EC work that needs to be done while incorporating IT (e.g., no post-Catalyst fight scene needs to be added, as the Catalyst confrontation is converted into a confrontation with the Catalyst, or, ideally, Harbinger). Bioware just need to tweak a few lines and show a slideshow of "this happened to X and this happened to Y" -- the standard Baldur's Gate/DAO ending style.

[Iecerint]

Slayer299 wrote...
It will be interesting to see if BW takes the IT theory and runs with it since that was obviously not their plan to begin with. 

On the contrary -- we know with 100% certainty that some kind of indoctrination mechanic was their intention in the beginning.  The question is whether any of that idea survived in the current game.

[KevShep]

Iecerint wrote...

Slayer299 wrote...
It will be interesting to see if BW takes the IT theory and runs with it since that was obviously not their plan to begin with. 

On the contrary -- we know with 100% certainty that some kind of indoctrination mechanic was their intention in the beginning.  The question is whether any of that idea survived in the current game.

seeing as how the endings were all the same and REALLY SHORT spells out that the endings were never what they seem to be.

If you think about it, the end of a EPIC series MUST have an EPIC ending that last for more then 10 seconds! This to me screams "misleading ending".......Indoctrination Attempt!

[dreman9999]

Iecerint wrote...

Slayer299 wrote...
It will be interesting to see if BW takes the IT theory and runs with it since that was obviously not their plan to begin with. 

On the contrary -- we know with 100% certainty that some kind of indoctrination mechanic was their intention in the beginning.  The question is whether any of that idea survived in the current game.

Well, TIM is controling Shepard and Anderson in the end of the game with indoctrination...So, yes it did.

[jla0644]

KevShep wrote...

seeing as how the endings were all the same and REALLY SHORT spells out that the endings were never what they seem to be.

If you think about it, the end of a EPIC series MUST have an EPIC ending that last for more then 10 seconds! This to me screams "misleading ending".......Indoctrination Attempt!

Two things:

1. People can have different ideas about what constitutes "epic". One man's epic ending might be another man's lame ending. Bioware may well have thought it was sufficiently epic.
2. Who says an "EPIC series MUST have an EPIC ending"? That sounds very video gamey, and we all know how the Bioware feels about that. If Hudson's comments are any indicator, they were going more for an ending that would be talked about, remembered, and speculated upon.

In short, I seriously doubt the fact that you found the ending lacking in "epicness" is a clue about anything.

Modifié par jla0644, 12 juin 2012 - 06:00 .

[liggy002]

jla0644 wrote...

KevShep wrote...

seeing as how the endings were all the same and REALLY SHORT spells out that the endings were never what they seem to be.

If you think about it, the end of a EPIC series MUST have an EPIC ending that last for more then 10 seconds! This to me screams "misleading ending".......Indoctrination Attempt!

Two things:

1. People can have different ideas about what constitutes "epic". One man's epic ending might be another man's lame ending. Bioware may well have thought it was sufficiently epic.
2. Who says an "EPIC series MUST have an EPIC ending"? That sounds very video gamey, and we all know how the Bioware feels about that. If Hudson's comments are any indicator, they were going more for an ending that would be talked about, remembered, and speculated upon.

In short, I seriously doubt the fact that you found the ending lacking in "epicness" is a clue about anything.

No, it's a not a clue I'll agree there but if they want to pull this artistic integrity and artsy ending B.S. then go pull it on another series, LEAVE MASS EFFECT ALONE AND GIVE US THE EPIC ENDING!!

[liggy002]

dreman9999 wrote...

Iecerint wrote...

Slayer299 wrote...
It will be interesting to see if BW takes the IT theory and runs with it since that was obviously not their plan to begin with. 

On the contrary -- we know with 100% certainty that some kind of indoctrination mechanic was their intention in the beginning.  The question is whether any of that idea survived in the current game.

Well, TIM is controling Shepard and Anderson in the end of the game with indoctrination...So, yes it did.

And im 99% sure that it was the Reapers that were controlling TIM who was in turn controlling Shepard and Anderson. Therefore, the Reapers were controlling Shepard and Anderson through TIM.   How do I know that the Reapers were controlling TIM?  Simple, when he attempted to resist them and agree with Shepard, they put the pressure on TIM.

Modifié par liggy002, 12 juin 2012 - 06:30 .

[KevShep]

liggy002 wrote...

jla0644 wrote...

KevShep wrote...

seeing as how the endings were all the same and REALLY SHORT spells out that the endings were never what they seem to be.

If you think about it, the end of a EPIC series MUST have an EPIC ending that last for more then 10 seconds! This to me screams "misleading ending".......Indoctrination Attempt!

Two things:

1. People can have different ideas about what constitutes "epic". One man's epic ending might be another man's lame ending. Bioware may well have thought it was sufficiently epic.
2. Who says an "EPIC series MUST have an EPIC ending"? That sounds very video gamey, and we all know how the Bioware feels about that. If Hudson's comments are any indicator, they were going more for an ending that would be talked about, remembered, and speculated upon.

In short, I seriously doubt the fact that you found the ending lacking in "epicness" is a clue about anything.

No, it's a not a clue I'll agree there but if they want to pull this artistic integrity and artsy ending B.S. then go pull it on another series, LEAVE MASS EFFECT ALONE AND GIVE US THE EPIC ENDING!!

My point is...If they were going to pull a misleading ending then they would NOT spend alot of time on it making them all the same endings and also really short. I mean hey, why would you make multiple endings and make it long and satisfing if it was just a dream?

Modifié par KevShep, 12 juin 2012 - 06:38 .

[dreman9999]

SubAstris wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

jsadalia wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

jsadalia wrote...

[Shepard sacrificing his/her self to save trillions of lives seems like a perfectly acceptable ending to me.

And choosing Destroy was your decision. The consequences were made clear. There were two other choices for your Paragon Shepard.

1.How do you know that the star child is telling the truth?
2. How do you know what you see in the end is real?
3. How do you know if the reapers are not messing with your mind?

Have you yet to ask yourself these questions?

Are you really trying to give a baseless absolute on vague statements? How can you tale "vague" as literal?

I have asked those questions.  I don't believe in IT.  I think it's silly.

You're welcome to believe whatever you want, however.

How is something established from ME1 an comfermed in ME2 as something the reapers want to do to Shepard, Silly?
Harbinger literaly guns after Shepard wanting to take control of Shepard in ME2. Yet in ME3 the though of the reaper succeeding to get there influence in Shepard is "silly"?

You seem to be perenially making the same mistake; the fact that Shepard can be indoctrinated doesn't means actually mean he is being so. I can anticipate an answer along the lines of "but there's plenty of evidence that he is indoctrinated such as", but this isn't about evidence, there is about faulty logic.

I'm sorry. So, TIM controling Shepard in the end of ME3 with indoctrination is not a sign that Shepard is indoctrinated?

[SubAstris]

dreman9999 wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

@SubAstris

I'm sorry? The last points he brought was stable proof. He was being very objective and cleared up alot of mess that people thought were key point. That doctumatary is the reason why so many peole are for IT. It cleaned upthe points of the theory.

In that case, what documentary exactly are you talking about? Link?

How very sarcatic of you.

Genuinely