295 réponses à ce sujet

[dreman9999]

filetemo wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

How can you say TIM conrtoling Shepard and Anderson with indoctrination is not a sign that they have a form of indoctriation on them....That only happen to people with indoctriation. That the most obvious and bluntest peice of proof the IT is real.

I think we are not speaking of the same thing, I'm getting lost.

Let's see
Indoctrination Theory means the endings are not real.
And you are saying that, since TIM tries to indoctrinate Shepard, the IT is real.
What does one thing have to do with the other?

Fun fact...There 3 theories for IT.
Your problem is that your hung up on the dream theory...There is more then one theory for IT...

[dreman9999]

SubAstris wrote...

I frankly don't see how they can really incorporate IT just a bit, I think they will either go with it completely or not at all

Then you don't have any imationation.

[SubAstris]

dreman9999 wrote...

TiminatorT2000 wrote...

Makrys wrote...

If the EC included IT is would not be because Bioware adopted a fan idea, it would be because it was planned. The evidence didn't accidently get there. And there are far too many coincidences for it to not be intended. .

There's no evidence for IT beyond circumstantial and there are some qoutes from bioware it's self which seem to go against EC being IT.Really it's impossible to go through every bit of IT evidence and disprove it because the evidence changes daily and a lot of it can't be understood without knowledge of software/game development.


My thoughts on the subject are similar to Archengeia on youtube

 

(skip to 27:00)

To me IT seems like a conspiracy theory , the same too many coincidences arguments you make are similar to ones by 9/11 truthers , things like saying that if you fold a bill a certain way it looks like the two towers seems eerily similar to the way some  indoctrination theorists talk about how the tech on the citadel looks similar to that on the shadow brokers ship. 

I ask this to every person who says this....Is it a 
coincidence that TIM controls Shepard and Anderson at the end of the game and every symtom of indoctrintion pops up?

And from this you can ascertain that everything from after the Harbinger scene is not real? You can still believe that Shepard could actually be controlled by TIM (maybe even partly indoctrinated by him) and everything that happened actually did

[Khajiit Jzargo]

dreman9999 wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

Makrys wrote...

"First things first, I don't believe that IT was originally planned by BW, but that doesn't matter."

Stopped right there. It does matter. The only way the IT will be true is if the IT was planned. I'm getting tired of people thinking the IT is just a fun fan-fiction people made up out of no where and screamed at Bioware, "Hey, use this!". It is a collection of clues and in game EVIDENCE (yes I said it) that leads to an interpretation of the ending that implies Shepard was undergoing an indoctrination attempt in London.

It is not some made up idea from the fans. The fans simply found the evidence and clues left for a reason. Bioware themselves said that they wanted the fans to speculate about the endings, and use their past knowledge of the lore to piece things together and make sense of what they saw. The IT does that. Bioware also said they were going for a Matrix/Inception ending. What are Matrix and Inception both about? Alternate realities.

If the EC included IT is would not be because Bioware adopted a fan idea, it would be because it was planned. The evidence didn't accidently get there. And there are far too many coincidences for it to not be intended. Now, one can doubt that the IT is true, but be damn sure that if it is, it was Bioware's plan. There's no getting around that.

You say evidence, I say horrible writing and coincedence. But again you said BW wanted people to speculate about the ending, and that's my opinion it wasn't originally included, the reason I say that is because I doubt they would take all this backlash,  even if they ran out of time for Gods sake ME3 is 40$ on Amazon.

So when TIM controls Anderson And Shepard at the end of the game...Every symtom of indoctrination popping up is a coincidence?

ahhhhhhhh here we go......
First thing first, TIM was originally suppose to be a boss battle, but they scraped it off at the last moment. Thats evidence itself that the scene that was put there had no nothing to do with the IT but instead just put therem but I'll continue and endulge you more. TIM can only control them, he learned that with the research that went on in Horizon. When Shepard shoots anderson it makes sense, TIM just finished saying "With the crucible, I am sure I can control the Reapers" with Shepard responding "Then what (hes saying what do you plan to do with it)" then Tim says "Look at the power its wields, look at what it can do" Then he forces shepard to shoot Anderson, TO SHOW THE POWER. Anyway why argue this thread is not about that, but if you want to explain anything else for you just ask.

Every thing you just posted has in no way disproved that the scene has nothing to do with indoctrination. So what that it used to be a boss battle, it not bring one does nothing to dissporve that TIm is using indoctriantion. The fact the TIM is using indoctriantion to control Shepard allown is proof enough that Shepard has a form of indoctrination on him. Added, everything he learn in sacturay was about using and controling indoctriantion and beings under indoctriantion. How can it have nothing to do with IT if it's based on indoctriantion?
Also, you don't understand the indoctriantion can be resisted?

Your logic is that just because it can be explain with Indoctrination, it theferoe makes sense and its correct. "OH MORDIN wants to go to the beach and study seashells, why does he want to stop fighting the reapers, Shepard mentions that Mordin is crazy, it must be Indoctrination" Ovbiously many things can be proved with Indoctrination, but it doesn't make it true. And the evidence suggesting that Shepard is not Indoctrinated is way more overwhelming that the evidence that proves he is that can actually be considered fact.

But TIM is liturally using indoctrination to control Shepard and Anderson. Every symtom of indoctriantion pops up when TIM controls Shepard. This not a maybe. Shepard literaly can't move and is force to Shoot Anderson via Indoctrination. It can't be more clear. This is what the scene shows. And there is no case of a person with out indoctriantion being controled like that.

1-Shepard and Anderson are being controlled physically, they can still speak they're own thoughts and words.
2-Again, Shepard shooting Anderson is him being controlled physically not mentally, meaning that the scene with the catalyst was real. Also, I may be wrong with this but isn't Indoctrination mentally, not physically. Also, When he was at Thessia he wasn't indoctrinated so when did this start? 

[SubAstris]

dreman9999 wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

I frankly don't see how they can really incorporate IT just a bit, I think they will either go with it completely or not at all

Then you don't have any imationation.

Thank you for that insightful comment, my conspiracist friend

[BigGuy28]

IT has become a cult, there is no point trying to argue with the believers. Either you are with them or you will be bludgeoned until you believe. They all act like it's proven fact and those that don't believe are too stupid to understand it. One even called them "freedom fighters fighting for the truth."

[dreman9999]

TiminatorT2000 wrote...



Not every symtom , in normal indoctrination you are made to believe what you are doing is the right course of action. Nothing indicates Shepard believes shooting Anderson is the right thing to do.

My guess is TIM dicovered a way to use the reaper signal to control individuals. 

That's full indoctriantion. Indoctriantion comes in stages and the theory is that Shepard is not full indoctrinated. What you discribing is the final stages for it. Base on the theory, that what the star child is trying to do, warp Shepards morality.

[dreman9999]

SubAstris wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

TiminatorT2000 wrote...

Makrys wrote...

If the EC included IT is would not be because Bioware adopted a fan idea, it would be because it was planned. The evidence didn't accidently get there. And there are far too many coincidences for it to not be intended. .

There's no evidence for IT beyond circumstantial and there are some qoutes from bioware it's self which seem to go against EC being IT.Really it's impossible to go through every bit of IT evidence and disprove it because the evidence changes daily and a lot of it can't be understood without knowledge of software/game development.


My thoughts on the subject are similar to Archengeia on youtube

 

(skip to 27:00)

To me IT seems like a conspiracy theory , the same too many coincidences arguments you make are similar to ones by 9/11 truthers , things like saying that if you fold a bill a certain way it looks like the two towers seems eerily similar to the way some  indoctrination theorists talk about how the tech on the citadel looks similar to that on the shadow brokers ship. 

I ask this to every person who says this....Is it a 
coincidence that TIM controls Shepard and Anderson at the end of the game and every symtom of indoctrintion pops up?

And from this you can ascertain that everything from after the Harbinger scene is not real? You can still believe that Shepard could actually be controlled by TIM (maybe even partly indoctrinated by him) and everything that happened actually did

Again...
Fun fact...There 3 theories for IT. 

That's theory number 3

[jijeebo]

They said in regards to IT that the EC will speak for itself, and I fully expect it to. Short of a little nod similar to Joker calling Javik prothy the prothean or those jokes about calibrations I don't expect to see IT being mentioned at all.

[dreman9999]

SubAstris wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

I frankly don't see how they can really incorporate IT just a bit, I think they will either go with it completely or not at all

Then you don't have any imationation.

Thank you for that insightful comment, my conspiracist friend

But you not understand that it easily can be incorporated. That's my point. Think of it a bit more and look at this..
Fun fact...There 3 theories for IT. 

And you see that it can with ease.

[jla0644]

dreman9999 wrote...

But TIM is liturally using indoctrination to control Shepard and Anderson. Every symtom of indoctriantion pops up when TIM controls Shepard. This not a maybe. Shepard literaly can't move and is force to Shoot Anderson via Indoctrination. It can't be more clear. This is what the scene shows. And there is no case of a person with out indoctriantion being controled like that.

lol there is no case of anyone being controlled like that, period. With or without indoctrination.

Also, this: "it's so obvious it couldn't be more clear IT is real" needs to stop. Please realize that if you'd stop posting this non-sense the vitriol towards the IT would decrease significantly.

And since when has direct physical control been a part of reaper indoctrination? TIM isn't subtly planting suggestions in their minds, changing they way they think. He is phyically controlling their movements. He doesn't convince Shepard that shooting Anderson is the right thing to do, he forces Shepard's arm to raise the gun, and forces his finger to pull the trigger. Nothing suggests he has any access to their minds or thoughts.

Nothing we've been told about indoctrination suggests this kind of control. How does he do it? We don't know exactly because the writers don't know themselves, or they figured we didn't need that information. Obviously it has something to do with what Cerberus discovered on Horizon and what TIM implanted himself with. But nothing I see in that scene suggests TIM is indoctrinating Shep and Anderson.

[davishepard]

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

 If they release EC and doesn't have to do anything with IT, IT theorist will be mad. 

I don't see a problem.

[SubAstris]

dreman9999 wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

TiminatorT2000 wrote...

Makrys wrote...

If the EC included IT is would not be because Bioware adopted a fan idea, it would be because it was planned. The evidence didn't accidently get there. And there are far too many coincidences for it to not be intended. .

There's no evidence for IT beyond circumstantial and there are some qoutes from bioware it's self which seem to go against EC being IT.Really it's impossible to go through every bit of IT evidence and disprove it because the evidence changes daily and a lot of it can't be understood without knowledge of software/game development.


My thoughts on the subject are similar to Archengeia on youtube

 

(skip to 27:00)

To me IT seems like a conspiracy theory , the same too many coincidences arguments you make are similar to ones by 9/11 truthers , things like saying that if you fold a bill a certain way it looks like the two towers seems eerily similar to the way some  indoctrination theorists talk about how the tech on the citadel looks similar to that on the shadow brokers ship. 

I ask this to every person who says this....Is it a 
coincidence that TIM controls Shepard and Anderson at the end of the game and every symtom of indoctrintion pops up?

And from this you can ascertain that everything from after the Harbinger scene is not real? You can still believe that Shepard could actually be controlled by TIM (maybe even partly indoctrinated by him) and everything that happened actually did

Again...
Fun fact...There 3 theories for IT. 

That's theory number 3

And what do you personally think it is?

[filetemo]

dreman9999 wrote...
Fun fact...There 3 theories for IT.
Your problem is that your hung up on the dream theory...There is more then one theory for IT...

with all due respect, every new one is more implausible than the last.

[dreamgazer]

BigGuy28 wrote...

IT has become a cult, there is no point trying to argue with the believers. Either you are with them or you will be bludgeoned until you believe. They all act like it's proven fact and those that don't believe are too stupid to understand it. One even called them "freedom fighters fighting for the truth."

And once again, generalization rear its ugly head.

There are anti-enders who have pushed the boundaries of that specific camp, too.  Does that mean that all anti-enders are extremists?

People shouldn't be instantly demonized as being cultists for sticking to an idea, let alone an interpretation of fiction.

[Pirates10i]

Bioware have already stated that they are not changing anything about the story.... how hard is this to understand? Yes I know the ending was terrible and i believe it should have been changed but its not going to happen... they already stated they are just explaining the events

[dreman9999]

jla0644 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

But TIM is liturally using indoctrination to control Shepard and Anderson. Every symtom of indoctriantion pops up when TIM controls Shepard. This not a maybe. Shepard literaly can't move and is force to Shoot Anderson via Indoctrination. It can't be more clear. This is what the scene shows. And there is no case of a person with out indoctriantion being controled like that.

lol there is no case of anyone being controlled like that, period. With or without indoctrination.

Also, this: "it's so obvious it couldn't be more clear IT is real" needs to stop. Please realize that if you'd stop posting this non-sense the vitriol towards the IT would decrease significantly.

And since when has direct physical control been a part of reaper indoctrination? TIM isn't subtly planting suggestions in their minds, changing they way they think. He is phyically controlling their movements. He doesn't convince Shepard that shooting Anderson is the right thing to do, he forces Shepard's arm to raise the gun, and forces his finger to pull the trigger. Nothing suggests he has any access to their minds or thoughts.

Nothing we've been told about indoctrination suggests this kind of control. How does he do it? We don't know exactly because the writers don't know themselves, or they figured we didn't need that information. Obviously it has something to do with what Cerberus discovered on Horizon and what TIM implanted himself with. But nothing I see in that scene suggests TIM is indoctrinating Shep and Anderson.

With indoctriantion ...Yes... benezia, Saren, TIM, the salarians on Virmire, and Paul Grayson in me:RETRUIBUTION. Did you miss those?
They all were evetually force to do what they did. Benzia had to let herself get killed to stop it. 
Also, in the codex it' stated to be a mental and physicalcal means of control...
Let me refresh your memory....
http://masseffect.wi...#Indoctrination 

Reaper "indoctrination" is an insidious means of corrupting organic minds, "reprogramming" the brain through physical and psychological conditioning using electromagnetic fields, infrasonic and ultrasonic noise, and other subliminal methods.  

[Khajiit Jzargo]

dreamgazer wrote...

BigGuy28 wrote...

IT has become a cult, there is no point trying to argue with the believers. Either you are with them or you will be bludgeoned until you believe. They all act like it's proven fact and those that don't believe are too stupid to understand it. One even called them "freedom fighters fighting for the truth."

And once again, generalization rear its ugly head.

There are anti-enders who have pushed the boundaries of that specific camp, too.  Does that mean that all anti-enders are extremists?

People shouldn't be instantly demonized as being cultists for sticking to an idea, let alone an interpretation of fiction.

I'm sorry but I disagree witht this statement, almost nearly every IT Theorist that i've come across gets mad or seem to become enraged when the idea of the IT being false is brought up.

[filetemo]

double post

Modifié par filetemo, 10 juin 2012 - 05:45 .

[Taboo]

dreamgazer wrote...
People shouldn't be instantly demonized as being cultists for sticking to an idea, let alone an interpretation of fiction.

[dreman9999]

filetemo wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
Fun fact...There 3 theories for IT.
Your problem is that your hung up on the dream theory...There is more then one theory for IT...

with all due respect, every new one is more implausible than the last.

How is it implausible? If your going to say that it is. First you have to say how? Is Shepard immune to Indoctriantion?

[Lookout1390]

dreamgazer wrote...

BigGuy28 wrote...

IT has become a cult, there is no point trying to argue with the believers. Either you are with them or you will be bludgeoned until you believe. They all act like it's proven fact and those that don't believe are too stupid to understand it. One even called them "freedom fighters fighting for the truth."

And once again, generalization rear its ugly head.

There are anti-enders who have pushed the boundaries of that specific camp, too.  Does that mean that all anti-enders are extremists?

People shouldn't be instantly demonized as being cultists for sticking to an idea, let alone an interpretation of fiction.

This

There are extreme people on both sides of this argument, and for some reason the opposite sides makes the other out to be nothing but a group of extreme zealots who bash the opposition at any given time.

It's been 3 months now, I think alot of people need to start letting this go.

[dreman9999]

Pirates10i wrote...

Bioware have already stated that they are not changing anything about the story.... how hard is this to understand? Yes I know the ending was terrible and i believe it should have been changed but its not going to happen... they already stated they are just explaining the events

IT does require changing the story at all. Just add more things on, which they are already doing.

[Khajiit Jzargo]

dreman9999 wrote...

jla0644 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

But TIM is liturally using indoctrination to control Shepard and Anderson. Every symtom of indoctriantion pops up when TIM controls Shepard. This not a maybe. Shepard literaly can't move and is force to Shoot Anderson via Indoctrination. It can't be more clear. This is what the scene shows. And there is no case of a person with out indoctriantion being controled like that.

lol there is no case of anyone being controlled like that, period. With or without indoctrination.

Also, this: "it's so obvious it couldn't be more clear IT is real" needs to stop. Please realize that if you'd stop posting this non-sense the vitriol towards the IT would decrease significantly.

And since when has direct physical control been a part of reaper indoctrination? TIM isn't subtly planting suggestions in their minds, changing they way they think. He is phyically controlling their movements. He doesn't convince Shepard that shooting Anderson is the right thing to do, he forces Shepard's arm to raise the gun, and forces his finger to pull the trigger. Nothing suggests he has any access to their minds or thoughts.

Nothing we've been told about indoctrination suggests this kind of control. How does he do it? We don't know exactly because the writers don't know themselves, or they figured we didn't need that information. Obviously it has something to do with what Cerberus discovered on Horizon and what TIM implanted himself with. But nothing I see in that scene suggests TIM is indoctrinating Shep and Anderson.

With indoctriantion ...Yes... benezia, Saren, TIM, the salarians on Virmire, and Paul Grayson in me:RETRUIBUTION. Did you miss those?
They all were evetually force to do what they did. Benzia had to let herself get killed to stop it. 
Also, in the codex it' stated to be a mental and physicalcal means of control...
Let me refresh your memory....
http://masseffect.wi...#Indoctrination 

Reaper "indoctrination" is an insidious means of corrupting organic minds, "reprogramming" the brain through physical and psychological conditioning using electromagnetic fields, infrasonic and ultrasonic noise, and other subliminal methods.  

Ovbiously Shepard doesn't agree with TIM, so he's not being Indoctrinated. If so, he would believe and agree with TIM.

[BigGuy28]

dreamgazer wrote...

BigGuy28 wrote...

IT has become a cult, there is no point trying to argue with the believers. Either you are with them or you will be bludgeoned until you believe. They all act like it's proven fact and those that don't believe are too stupid to understand it. One even called them "freedom fighters fighting for the truth."

And once again, generalization rear its ugly head.

There are anti-enders who have pushed the boundaries of that specific camp, too.  Does that mean that all anti-enders are extremists?

People shouldn't be instantly demonized as being cultists for sticking to an idea, let alone an interpretation of fiction.

Sticking with something is perfectly fine. The problem starts when you start acting like what you believe is 100% truth and those that don't see it are wrong/idiots. I was fine with the IT and only just disliked it until it's believers started going around talking like it was fact. It very much feels like a cult to me now.