295 réponses à ce sujet

[dreman9999]

dreamgazer wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

The aim of any storyteller is to communicate their true artistic visions to the audience. If s/he fails to that, in this respect he has failed.

Hence, the destination, and the nature of interpretation. This wouldn't be the first time that a low-lying interpretation might end up being a pertinent and accurate one, an element that people have overlooked and angrily refuted along the way. 

AKA, Blade runner. It took 20 years to comferm that the main character as a synthetic.

[BatmanTurian]

dreman9999 wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

filetemo wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
Fun fact...There 3 theories for IT.
Your problem is that your hung up on the dream theory...There is more then one theory for IT...

with all due respect, every new one is more implausible than the last.

How is it implausible? If your going to say that it is. First you have to say how? Is Shepard immune to Indoctriantion?

Ridiculous strawman

Asking to why it's implausible is a strawman?

It is ridiculous since this is not the view held by many who don't believe IT

Do you understand how little sense that makes? You basicly said that becasue it's not your view....It's wrong.
So please, explain why it's implausible for indoctriantion to happen.

You don't seem to be getting what I am on about. Indoctrination can happen, whether it does is another matter entirely. Surely even you would agree?

But Shepard is in the range of objects and beings that can indoctrinate since ME1. He has 3 years of on and off contect wit reaper forces, agents and reaper tech...And some how he didn't get indoctrinated?

Dreman, it's pointless. Sub won't agree until Bioware explicitly states it's true or reveals it to be true beyond a doubt through story elements. You're wasting your time.

[dreman9999]

jla0644 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

jla0644 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

But TIM is liturally using indoctrination to control Shepard and Anderson. Every symtom of indoctriantion pops up when TIM controls Shepard. This not a maybe. Shepard literaly can't move and is force to Shoot Anderson via Indoctrination. It can't be more clear. This is what the scene shows. And there is no case of a person with out indoctriantion being controled like that.

lol there is no case of anyone being controlled like that, period. With or without indoctrination.

Also, this: "it's so obvious it couldn't be more clear IT is real" needs to stop. Please realize that if you'd stop posting this non-sense the vitriol towards the IT would decrease significantly.

And since when has direct physical control been a part of reaper indoctrination? TIM isn't subtly planting suggestions in their minds, changing they way they think. He is phyically controlling their movements. He doesn't convince Shepard that shooting Anderson is the right thing to do, he forces Shepard's arm to raise the gun, and forces his finger to pull the trigger. Nothing suggests he has any access to their minds or thoughts.

Nothing we've been told about indoctrination suggests this kind of control. How does he do it? We don't know exactly because the writers don't know themselves, or they figured we didn't need that information. Obviously it has something to do with what Cerberus discovered on Horizon and what TIM implanted himself with. But nothing I see in that scene suggests TIM is indoctrinating Shep and Anderson.

With indoctriantion ...Yes... benezia, Saren, TIM, the salarians on Virmire, and Paul Grayson in me:RETRUIBUTION. Did you miss those?
They all were evetually force to do what they did. Benzia had to let herself get killed to stop it. 
Also, in the codex it' stated to be a mental and physicalcal means of control...
Let me refresh your memory....
http://masseffect.wi...#Indoctrination 

Reaper "indoctrination" is an insidious means of corrupting organic minds, "reprogramming" the brain through physical and psychological conditioning using electromagnetic fields, infrasonic and ultrasonic noise, and other subliminal methods.  

None of those people were controlled like TIM was controlling Shepard. Not one of them. They were not puppets whose bodily movements were being actively controlled. They were in effect brainwashed. That's really all Indoctrination is, being convinced that what the Reapers want you to do is what YOU want to do.

And you're misreading that definition. There is nothing in that definition about direct bodily control. "Physical" doesn't mean what you think it means in this case. "Physiological" would probably be a better word to use. Read it again. Here's a hint: the bit about "reprogramming the brain" is what you want to pay attention to.

Yes, they were. Benezia was cantrol phystcaly and mentally. So was Saren. Even the lore says indoctriantion is also a form of physical control. Heck, Paul grayson in ME:RETRIBUTION literly was a puppet.

[SubAstris]

[quote]dreman9999 wrote...

[quote]SubAstris wrote...

[quote]dreman9999 wrote...

[quote]SubAstris wrote...

[quote]dreman9999 wrote...

[quote]SubAstris wrote...

[quote]dreman9999 wrote...

[quote]SubAstris wrote...

[quote]dreman9999 wrote...

[quote]TiminatorT2000 wrote...

[quote]Makrys wrote...

If the EC included IT is would not be because Bioware adopted a fan idea, it would be because it was planned. The evidence didn't accidently get there. And there are far too many coincidences for it to not be intended. .[/quote]

There's no evidence for IT beyond circumstantial and there are some qoutes from bioware it's self which seem to go against EC being IT.Really it's impossible to go through every bit of IT evidence and disprove it because the evidence changes daily and a lot of it can't be understood without knowledge of software/game development.


My thoughts on the subject are similar to Archengeia on youtube

 

(skip to 27:00)

To me IT seems like a conspiracy theory , the same too many coincidences arguments you make are similar to ones by 9/11 truthers , things like saying that if you fold a bill a certain way it looks like the two towers seems eerily similar to the way some  indoctrination theorists talk about how the tech on the citadel looks similar to that on the shadow brokers ship. 




[/quote]I ask this to every person who says this....Is it a 
coincidence that TIM controls Shepard and Anderson at the end of the game and every symtom of indoctrintion pops up?[/quote]

And from this you can ascertain that everything from after the Harbinger scene is not real? You can still believe that Shepard could actually be controlled by TIM (maybe even partly indoctrinated by him) and everything that happened actually did

[/quote]Again...
Fun fact...There 3 theories for IT. 

That's theory number 3

[/quote]

And what do you personally think it is?

[/quote]It doesn't matter, saying one of the theories is possible opens them all up to be possible.
Think of indoctrination with someone have the master key to every door in your house. They can get to every room with no problem.  Whatlimits them to which room they want to go to is themselves.

[/quote]

By this you are basically admitting that you don't really care what the evidence is, you just want any one of the three theories to be true as long as it is IT.

[/quote]How? All 3 of the theories use the same evidence.
[/quote]

If BW did their job properly it should be obvious which one is correct. If all these theories have as much evidence for them as each other, then BW have failed to communicate their vision correctly.

[/quote]So you're one of those people how doesn't get why people think the ending of inception maybe a dream.
[/quote]

Keeping those strawmen coming...

[dreman9999]

BatmanTurian wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

filetemo wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
Fun fact...There 3 theories for IT.
Your problem is that your hung up on the dream theory...There is more then one theory for IT...

with all due respect, every new one is more implausible than the last.

How is it implausible? If your going to say that it is. First you have to say how? Is Shepard immune to Indoctriantion?

Ridiculous strawman

Asking to why it's implausible is a strawman?

It is ridiculous since this is not the view held by many who don't believe IT

Do you understand how little sense that makes? You basicly said that becasue it's not your view....It's wrong.
So please, explain why it's implausible for indoctriantion to happen.

You don't seem to be getting what I am on about. Indoctrination can happen, whether it does is another matter entirely. Surely even you would agree?

But Shepard is in the range of objects and beings that can indoctrinate since ME1. He has 3 years of on and off contect wit reaper forces, agents and reaper tech...And some how he didn't get indoctrinated?

Dreman, it's pointless. Sub won't agree until Bioware explicitly states it's true or reveals it to be true beyond a doubt through story elements. You're wasting your time.

I know...I just want him to get thinking.

[BatmanTurian]

jla0644 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

jla0644 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

But TIM is liturally using indoctrination to control Shepard and Anderson. Every symtom of indoctriantion pops up when TIM controls Shepard. This not a maybe. Shepard literaly can't move and is force to Shoot Anderson via Indoctrination. It can't be more clear. This is what the scene shows. And there is no case of a person with out indoctriantion being controled like that.

lol there is no case of anyone being controlled like that, period. With or without indoctrination.

Also, this: "it's so obvious it couldn't be more clear IT is real" needs to stop. Please realize that if you'd stop posting this non-sense the vitriol towards the IT would decrease significantly.

And since when has direct physical control been a part of reaper indoctrination? TIM isn't subtly planting suggestions in their minds, changing they way they think. He is phyically controlling their movements. He doesn't convince Shepard that shooting Anderson is the right thing to do, he forces Shepard's arm to raise the gun, and forces his finger to pull the trigger. Nothing suggests he has any access to their minds or thoughts.

Nothing we've been told about indoctrination suggests this kind of control. How does he do it? We don't know exactly because the writers don't know themselves, or they figured we didn't need that information. Obviously it has something to do with what Cerberus discovered on Horizon and what TIM implanted himself with. But nothing I see in that scene suggests TIM is indoctrinating Shep and Anderson.

With indoctriantion ...Yes... benezia, Saren, TIM, the salarians on Virmire, and Paul Grayson in me:RETRUIBUTION. Did you miss those?
They all were evetually force to do what they did. Benzia had to let herself get killed to stop it. 
Also, in the codex it' stated to be a mental and physicalcal means of control...
Let me refresh your memory....
http://masseffect.wi...#Indoctrination 

Reaper "indoctrination" is an insidious means of corrupting organic minds, "reprogramming" the brain through physical and psychological conditioning using electromagnetic fields, infrasonic and ultrasonic noise, and other subliminal methods.  

None of those people were controlled like TIM was controlling Shepard. Not one of them. They were not puppets whose bodily movements were being actively controlled. They were in effect brainwashed. That's really all Indoctrination is, being convinced that what the Reapers want you to do is what YOU want to do.

And you're misreading that definition. There is nothing in that definition about direct bodily control. "Physical" doesn't mean what you think it means in this case. "Physiological" would probably be a better word to use. Read it again. Here's a hint: the bit about "reprogramming the brain" is what you want to pay attention to.

And I would politely ask, what do you think TIM is using that has no precedent beyond biotics? I don't believe TIM was ever a biotic, but I could be wrong. If he had any potential, then implants might magnify that potential, but I believe his implants from the research on Sanctuary were to control husks. What do you think?

[dreman9999]

SubAstris wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...


So you're one of those people how doesn't get why people think the ending of inception maybe a dream.

Keeping those strawmen coming...

How is that a straw man?

[filetemo]

Bioware gave wings to the IT.
The unfinished plot's and dead ends left in the game after scrapping their respective missions and storylines due to costs/deadlines is what made fans flesh out the IT.

Sadly, the IT is just a well documented recap of cut plots and dead ends mixed up to make any sense of them.

[jijeebo]

The wheels on the bus go round and round, round and round, round and round.

The wheels on the bus go round and round, all day long.

[SubAstris]

dreman9999 wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

filetemo wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
Fun fact...There 3 theories for IT.
Your problem is that your hung up on the dream theory...There is more then one theory for IT...

with all due respect, every new one is more implausible than the last.

How is it implausible? If your going to say that it is. First you have to say how? Is Shepard immune to Indoctriantion?

Ridiculous strawman

Asking to why it's implausible is a strawman?

It is ridiculous since this is not the view held by many who don't believe IT

Do you understand how little sense that makes? You basicly said that becasue it's not your view....It's wrong.
So please, explain why it's implausible for indoctriantion to happen.

You don't seem to be getting what I am on about. Indoctrination can happen, whether it does is another matter entirely. Surely even you would agree?

But Shepard is in the range of objects and beings that can indoctrinate since ME1. He has 3 years of on and off contect wit reaper forces, agents and reaper tech...And some how he didn't get indoctrinated?

And yet in the game as a whole there is little to no evidence of indoctrination actually occuring (I'm not talking about the ending, not that I think it is full of evidence for IT, but if IT is true, there is more to it than just the ending). Furthermore there are many gaps in our knowledge of indoctrination to know with any certainty at all about whether he can be fully indoctrinated by the end

[BatmanTurian]

filetemo wrote...

Bioware gave wings to the IT.
The unfinished plot's and dead ends left in the game after scrapping their respective missions and storylines due to costs/deadlines is what made fans flesh out the IT.

Sadly, the IT is just a well documented recap of cut plots and dead ends mixed up to make any sense of them.

I admit that you could be right, but I remain optimistic.

[SubAstris]

dreman9999 wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...


So you're one of those people how doesn't get why people think the ending of inception maybe a dream.

Keeping those strawmen coming...

How is that a straw man?

Look it up

[dreman9999]

filetemo wrote...

Bioware gave wings to the IT.
The unfinished plot's and dead ends left in the game after scrapping their respective missions and storylines due to costs/deadlines is what made fans flesh out the IT.

Sadly, the IT is just a well documented recap of cut plots and dead ends mixed up to make any sense of them.

Again...Why is TIM control Shepard and Andreson with indoctriantion in the end of the game if Shepard is not indoctrinated?

[jla0644]

dreman9999 wrote...

But Shepard is in the range of objects and beings that can indoctrinate since ME1. He has 3 years of on and off contect wit reaper forces, agents and reaper tech...And some how he didn't get indoctrinated?

So what? We've also been told that Shepard is "remarkably strong willed". There's your reason, if you really need one, as to why he/she isn't indoctrinated. Or you could say Shepard has never had sustained contact. Do you know for a fact that off and on, unsustained contact is enough?

Stop making assumptions and speculations, and then assuming that it is a fact. It is possible to answer every piece of  IT "evidence" with another interpretation. But you so desperately want IT to be true that you won't allow yourself to see them. I wanted IT to be true when the idea first started being kicked around. But the more it was discussed, the more evidence people claimed to find, the more my reason and my logic wouldn't let me believe it. The evidence simply isn't there.

Modifié par jla0644, 10 juin 2012 - 06:26 .

[BatmanTurian]

SubAstris wrote...

And yet in the game as a whole there is little to no evidence of indoctrination actually occuring (I'm not talking about the ending, not that I think it is full of evidence for IT, but if IT is true, there is more to it than just the ending). Furthermore there are many gaps in our knowledge of indoctrination to know with any certainty at all about whether he can be fully indoctrinated by the end

Indoctrinated Hanar diplomat at the citadel as well as TIM and Kai Leng disagree with your assertion. Bioware has been hitting us over the head with Indoctrination since ME1. It's one of the pillars of the trilogy that furthers the plot and is as major a plot element as the Force in Star Wars.

Modifié par BatmanTurian, 10 juin 2012 - 06:29 .

[M920CAIN]

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

 First things first, I don't believe that IT was originally planned by BW, but that doesn't matter. I think what BW wants to do is release an ending that can please everyone, therefore if they release EC and it cointains the IT theory completely the Anti-IT people and people that for whatever reason liked the original ending will be mad. If they release EC and doesn't have to do anything with IT, IT theorist will be mad. So I doubt they're going to made the ending completely to deal with IT, or not deal with IT at all. What I believe is that they're going to implement IT in some way to please the IT theorist and maybe explain some plotholes, how they will pull it off i don't know, but I doubt the whole thing will be based on Indoctrination. Also, I think the new EC DLC will be big, not just a few "clarification" cutscenes, because it wouldn't be taking this long, they want to take they're time and release something that will please us. Also, Them taking a long time I believe can be seen as proof itself about the IT being actually used, I think they were gathering ideas and now they're finishing it up.

Listen to Jzargo. He is most powerful Mage of Winterhold! Future archmage material!

[dreamgazer]

filetemo wrote...

Sadly, the IT is just a well documented recap of cut plots and dead ends mixed up to make any sense of them.

It's documented that certain things were removed, but much like hidden secrets in shooting scripts (read up on The Empire Strikes Back and creating the Vader plot twist), it's not documented what was actually utilized behind closed doors.  You don't know.

The details and cues are still there, though, and viable for interpretation.  That's observable, as opposed to speculation on either side as to what's accurate. 

[Catamantaloedis]

If the IT is true, then that means that ME is just full of bad writing. Compare the writing of KotOR where subtly throughout the entire game the writers leave clever hints which are finally revealed and you see the whole picture come together revealing Revan's true nature.

Now compare this to the IT where three times the Prothean VIs confirm that Shepard is not indoctrinated. The last time being at Cronos Station right on the brink of the last mission. If the IT is true, then writers aren't using clever and subtle hints to reveal that Shepard's indoctrinated. They are abusing the power of the writer over the storyline to literally lead you away from this conclusion three times, and then just suddenly throw it on you. Nonsense.

You either accept the endings, horrible though they may be, or you accept the Indoctrination Delusion with all this bad writing included.

Modifié par Catamantaloedis, 10 juin 2012 - 06:31 .

[SubAstris]

BatmanTurian wrote...


Indoctrinated Hanar diplomat at the citadel as well as TIM and Kai Leng disagree with your assertion. Bioware has been hitting us over the head with Indocrination since ME1. It's one of the pillars of the trilogy that furthers the plot and is as major a plot element as the Force in Star Wars.

I should have put indoctrination of Shepard, not indoctrination

[dreman9999]

jla0644 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

But Shepard is in the range of objects and beings that can indoctrinate since ME1. He has 3 years of on and off contect wit reaper forces, agents and reaper tech...And some how he didn't get indoctrinated?

So what? We've also been told that Shepard is "remarkably strong willed". There's your reason, if you really need one, as to why he/she isn't indoctrinated. Or you could say Shepard has never had sustained contact. Do you know for a fact that off and on, unsustained contact is enough?

Stop making assumptions and speculations, and then assuming that it is a fact. It is possible to answer every piece of  IT "evidence" with another interpretation. But you so desperately want IT to be true that you won't allow yourself to see them. I wanted IT to be true when the idea first started being kicked around. But the more it was discussed, the more evidence people claimed to find, the more my reason and my logic wouldn't let me believe it. The evidence simply isn't there.

Do you understand that just means he can resist it? Do you understand that resist doesn't mean fully stops?
Shepard can resist it all he wants, it doesn't means he prevents it. Indoctriantion is something that given time will happen.It can last for years and dacades. This is in the codex.

Also, indoctriantion can happen with on and off contact. The 3 years include ME3 as well.

[BatmanTurian]

SubAstris wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...


Indoctrinated Hanar diplomat at the citadel as well as TIM and Kai Leng disagree with your assertion. Bioware has been hitting us over the head with Indocrination since ME1. It's one of the pillars of the trilogy that furthers the plot and is as major a plot element as the Force in Star Wars.

I should have put indoctrination of Shepard, not indoctrination

And then we'd just disagree about interpretations of the dreams and Shepard's wierd mannerisms throughout the game, so I'll just agree to disagree with you.

[dreman9999]

SubAstris wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...


So you're one of those people how doesn't get why people think the ending of inception maybe a dream.

Keeping those strawmen coming...

How is that a straw man?

Look it up

I jknow what it is and what I used is not one.

[jla0644]

BatmanTurian wrote...

jla0644 wrote...

None of those people were controlled like TIM was controlling Shepard. Not one of them. They were not puppets whose bodily movements were being actively controlled. They were in effect brainwashed. That's really all Indoctrination is, being convinced that what the Reapers want you to do is what YOU want to do.

And you're misreading that definition. There is nothing in that definition about direct bodily control. "Physical" doesn't mean what you think it means in this case. "Physiological" would probably be a better word to use. Read it again. Here's a hint: the bit about "reprogramming the brain" is what you want to pay attention to.

And I would politely ask, what do you think TIM is using that has no precedent beyond biotics? I don't believe TIM was ever a biotic, but I could be wrong. If he had any potential, then implants might magnify that potential, but I believe his implants from the research on Sanctuary were to control husks. What do you think?

I have no idea. All we know is that Lawson found a way to copy the Reaper signal. We don't know what that allows them to do beyond controlling husks. We don't know if that is the extent of it, or if it does more.

Why would TIM need to be a biotic?

What do I think? Honestly I don't think the writers themselves know what is going on. I think they showed us a few clues -- the Reaper signal, TiM implanting himself -- and we're supposed to deduce that that is where this power came from. If they want to make up some fake facts to give it some more detail, I'm sure they could.

And I would ask, if all that signal does is give TIM the power to control husks, why do you assume he has the power to indoctrinate Shepard and Anderson?

[SubAstris]

dreman9999 wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...


So you're one of those people how doesn't get why people think the ending of inception maybe a dream.

Keeping those strawmen coming...

How is that a straw man?

Look it up

I jknow what it is and what I used is not one.

Deliberate misinterpretation of my view. But this is getting nowhere

[jla0644]

dreman9999 wrote...

jla0644 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

But Shepard is in the range of objects and beings that can indoctrinate since ME1. He has 3 years of on and off contect wit reaper forces, agents and reaper tech...And some how he didn't get indoctrinated?

So what? We've also been told that Shepard is "remarkably strong willed". There's your reason, if you really need one, as to why he/she isn't indoctrinated. Or you could say Shepard has never had sustained contact. Do you know for a fact that off and on, unsustained contact is enough?

Stop making assumptions and speculations, and then assuming that it is a fact. It is possible to answer every piece of  IT "evidence" with another interpretation. But you so desperately want IT to be true that you won't allow yourself to see them. I wanted IT to be true when the idea first started being kicked around. But the more it was discussed, the more evidence people claimed to find, the more my reason and my logic wouldn't let me believe it. The evidence simply isn't there.

Do you understand that just means he can resist it? Do you understand that resist doesn't mean fully stops?
Shepard can resist it all he wants, it doesn't means he prevents it. Indoctriantion is something that given time will happen.It can last for years and dacades. This is in the codex.

Also, indoctriantion can happen with on and off contact. The 3 years include ME3 as well.

Do you understand that you're making this all up?