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The step I think Bioware will take with the IT Theory and the endings.


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#101
BatmanTurian

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Catamantaloedis wrote...

If the IT is true, then that means that ME is just full of bad writing. Compare the writing of KotOR where subtly throughout the entire game the writers leave clever hints which are finally revealed and you see the whole picture come together revealing Revan's true nature.

Now compare this to the IT where three times the Prothean VIs confirm that Shepard is not indoctrinated. The last time being at Cronos Station right on the brink of the last mission. If the IT is true, then writers aren't using clever and subtle hints to reveal that Shepard's indoctrinated. They are abusing the power of the writer over the storyline to literally lead you away from this conclusion three times, and then just suddenly throw it on you. Nonsense.

You either accept the endings, horrible though they may be, or you accept the Indoctrination Delusion with all this bad writing included.


Indoctrination is a process. Shepard isn't fully indoctrinated until making choices at the end. Therefore, of course the VI's wouldn't sense it Seriously, saying it over and over doesn't make it true.

Also, red herrings are used in stories all the time. In Game of Thrones, (spoilers) one would believe that Ned Stark is the primary protagonist of the series. Then he gets offed in the very first book. Clearly writers and film-makers fool their audiences and readers all the time.

Modifié par BatmanTurian, 10 juin 2012 - 06:36 .


#102
SubAstris

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BatmanTurian wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...


Indoctrinated Hanar diplomat at the citadel as well as TIM and Kai Leng disagree with your assertion. Bioware has been hitting us over the head with Indocrination since ME1. It's one of the pillars of the trilogy that furthers the plot and is as major a plot element as the Force in Star Wars.


I should have put indoctrination of Shepard, not indoctrination


And then we'd just disagree about interpretations of the dreams and Shepard's wierd mannerisms throughout the game, so I'll just agree to disagree with you.


Ok. But what weird mannerisms that can't be explained without resort to the immediate context

#103
dreamgazer

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Catamantaloedis wrote...

If the IT is true, then that means that ME is just full of bad writing. Compare the writing of KotOR where subtly throughout the entire game the writers leave clever hints which are finally revealed and you see the whole picture come together revealing Revan's true nature.

Now compare this to the IT where three times the Prothean VIs confirm that Shepard is not indoctrinated. The last time being at Cronos Station right on the brink of the last mission. If the IT is true, then writers aren't using clever and subtle hints to reveal that Shepard's indoctrinated. They are abusing the power of the writer over the storyline to literally lead you away from this conclusion three times, and then just suddenly throw it on you. Nonsense.

You either accept the endings, horrible though they may be, or you accept the Indoctrination Delusion with all this bad writing included.


Oh, good.  Your inaccurate retorts and claims of delusional fans appear once again.

#104
dreamgazer

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jla0644 wrote...

Do you understand that you're making this all up?


Do you understand that he's using the information provided in the game, and the universe, to come to this conclusion?

#105
SubAstris

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BatmanTurian wrote...

Catamantaloedis wrote...

If the IT is true, then that means that ME is just full of bad writing. Compare the writing of KotOR where subtly throughout the entire game the writers leave clever hints which are finally revealed and you see the whole picture come together revealing Revan's true nature.

Now compare this to the IT where three times the Prothean VIs confirm that Shepard is not indoctrinated. The last time being at Cronos Station right on the brink of the last mission. If the IT is true, then writers aren't using clever and subtle hints to reveal that Shepard's indoctrinated. They are abusing the power of the writer over the storyline to literally lead you away from this conclusion three times, and then just suddenly throw it on you. Nonsense.

You either accept the endings, horrible though they may be, or you accept the Indoctrination Delusion with all this bad writing included.


Indoctrination is a process. Shepard isn't fully indoctrinated until making choices at the end. Therefore, of course the VI's wouldn't sense it Seriously, saying it over and over doesn't make it true.

Also, red herrings are used in stories all the time. In Game of Thrones, (spoilers) one would believe that Ned Stark is the primary protagonist of the series. Then he gets offed in the very first book. Clearly writers and film-makers fool their audiences all the time.


Those Prothean VIs must be rubbish if they can only detect indoctrinated beings and not those who are just about to be fully indoctrinated like Shepard is meant to be.

#106
dreamgazer

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SubAstris wrote...

Those Prothean VIs must be rubbish if they can only detect indoctrinated beings and not those who are just about to be fully indoctrinated like Shepard is meant to be.


They either detect that a person's being manipulated against their will, or that they're not currently being manipulated against their will.

Not all that big of a leap, really.

#107
Vox Draco

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dreamgazer wrote...

jla0644 wrote...

Do you understand that you're making this all up?


Do you understand that he's using the information provided in the game, and the universe, to come to this conclusion?


Few people seem to understand the concept of interpretation...

#108
OH-UP-THIS!

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jla0644 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

But TIM is liturally using indoctrination to control Shepard and Anderson. Every symtom of indoctriantion pops up when TIM controls Shepard. This not a maybe. Shepard literaly can't move and is force to Shoot Anderson via Indoctrination. It can't be more clear. This is what the scene shows. And there is no case of a person with out indoctriantion being controled like that.


lol there is no case of anyone being controlled like that, period. With or without indoctrination.

Also, this: "it's so obvious it couldn't be more clear IT is real" needs to stop. Please realize that if you'd stop posting this non-sense the vitriol towards the IT would decrease significantly.

And since when has direct physical control been a part of reaper indoctrination? TIM isn't subtly planting suggestions in their minds, changing they way they think. He is phyically controlling their movements. He doesn't convince Shepard that shooting Anderson is the right thing to do, he forces Shepard's arm to raise the gun, and forces his finger to pull the trigger. Nothing suggests he has any access to their minds or thoughts.

Nothing we've been told about indoctrination suggests this kind of control. How does he do it? We don't know exactly because the writers don't know themselves, or they figured we didn't need that information. Obviously it has something to do with what Cerberus discovered on Horizon and what TIM implanted himself with. But nothing I see in that scene suggests TIM is indoctrinating Shep and Anderson.




Another solution to this kind of backtalk, would simply be to NOT respond to any of the IT threads.

Unless you've got supporting evidence, move alongImage IPB, 'nothing to see here', mindset. got it?

#109
filetemo

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dreman9999 wrote...

Again...Why is TIM control Shepard and Andreson with indoctriantion in the end of the game if Shepard is not indoctrinated?

His research allowed him to do that. Anderson had no signs of being on process of being indoctrinated before, yet he also falls into being controlled by TIM.TIM tries a fast indoctrination attempt, fails and gets killed.

Again, that has nothing to do with Shep being indoctrinated before or with the IT in general.

#110
cyrslash1974

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I love IT, but if IT is true, the ending of the trilogy is missing at this stage !

#111
BatmanTurian

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SubAstris wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...


Indoctrinated Hanar diplomat at the citadel as well as TIM and Kai Leng disagree with your assertion. Bioware has been hitting us over the head with Indocrination since ME1. It's one of the pillars of the trilogy that furthers the plot and is as major a plot element as the Force in Star Wars.


I should have put indoctrination of Shepard, not indoctrination


And then we'd just disagree about interpretations of the dreams and Shepard's wierd mannerisms throughout the game, so I'll just agree to disagree with you.


Ok. But what weird mannerisms that can't be explained without resort to the immediate context


Shepard giving in to despair seems so unlike Shepard. Shepard not even giving the Catalyst a piece of his/her mind is unlike Shepard. Shepard having nightmares when nothing of the sort occurred after a) being an orphan on Earth B) surviving Akuze c) surviving the Skyllian Blitz d) seeing comrades die e) all of the messed up crap Shepard has seen and had to do before ME3.  But that's just my opinion, no need to spread it around.

#112
Catamantaloedis

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BatmanTurian wrote...

Catamantaloedis wrote...

If the IT is true, then that means that ME is just full of bad writing. Compare the writing of KotOR where subtly throughout the entire game the writers leave clever hints which are finally revealed and you see the whole picture come together revealing Revan's true nature.

Now compare this to the IT where three times the Prothean VIs confirm that Shepard is not indoctrinated. The last time being at Cronos Station right on the brink of the last mission. If the IT is true, then writers aren't using clever and subtle hints to reveal that Shepard's indoctrinated. They are abusing the power of the writer over the storyline to literally lead you away from this conclusion three times, and then just suddenly throw it on you. Nonsense.

You either accept the endings, horrible though they may be, or you accept the Indoctrination Delusion with all this bad writing included.


Indoctrination is a process. Shepard isn't fully indoctrinated until making choices at the end. Therefore, of course the VI's wouldn't sense it Seriously, saying it over and over doesn't make it true.

Also, red herrings are used in stories all the time. In Game of Thrones, (spoilers) one would believe that Ned Stark is the primary protagonist of the series. Then he gets offed in the very first book. Clearly writers and film-makers fool their audiences and readers all the time.


Do you not see how that is being misleading? I've used this analogy before. It's like a doctor telling his patient that he doesn't have diabetes, while not telling him that he will likely become diabetic within the next few months. That's deceptive writing, and not the good kind either.

Additionally, you are speculating on the VI's ability to detect differing levels of indoctrination or the process of indoctrination. You have no idea how much of the "taint" of indoctrination the VIs could detect. 

Furthermore, it becomes increasingly unlikely that Shepard is indoctrinated, when he literally only has a 1 mission span within which he can become indoctrinated.

Finally, to the vast majority of players, being told that Shepard is not indoctrinated, would have dismissed any thought of idea from them completely.

Now compare this to KotOR where the writers cleverly lead you towards the Revan's role, and then completely, with dramatic cutscenes actually confirm it. In ME3 we have a horde of fans confused and pissed off and unable to understand what the hell happen.

#113
BatmanTurian

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SubAstris wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

Catamantaloedis wrote...

If the IT is true, then that means that ME is just full of bad writing. Compare the writing of KotOR where subtly throughout the entire game the writers leave clever hints which are finally revealed and you see the whole picture come together revealing Revan's true nature.

Now compare this to the IT where three times the Prothean VIs confirm that Shepard is not indoctrinated. The last time being at Cronos Station right on the brink of the last mission. If the IT is true, then writers aren't using clever and subtle hints to reveal that Shepard's indoctrinated. They are abusing the power of the writer over the storyline to literally lead you away from this conclusion three times, and then just suddenly throw it on you. Nonsense.

You either accept the endings, horrible though they may be, or you accept the Indoctrination Delusion with all this bad writing included.


Indoctrination is a process. Shepard isn't fully indoctrinated until making choices at the end. Therefore, of course the VI's wouldn't sense it Seriously, saying it over and over doesn't make it true.

Also, red herrings are used in stories all the time. In Game of Thrones, (spoilers) one would believe that Ned Stark is the primary protagonist of the series. Then he gets offed in the very first book. Clearly writers and film-makers fool their audiences all the time.


Those Prothean VIs must be rubbish if they can only detect indoctrinated beings and not those who are just about to be fully indoctrinated like Shepard is meant to be.


They are. Javik says so. It's how his people were infiltrated by traitors working for the Reapers.

#114
OH-UP-THIS!

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[quote]Khajiit Jzargo wrote...


[/quote]Ovbiously Shepard doesn't agree with TIM, so he's not being Indoctrinated. If so, he would believe and agree with TIM.
[/quote]


You obviously missed the part of Shep shooting Anderson.

Fail.

#115
Catamantaloedis

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dreamgazer wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

Those Prothean VIs must be rubbish if they can only detect indoctrinated beings and not those who are just about to be fully indoctrinated like Shepard is meant to be.


They either detect that a person's being manipulated against their will, or that they're not currently being manipulated against their will.

Not all that big of a leap, really.


Ilos VI mentions the "taint" of indoctrination. To me, a taint doesn't necessarily suggest that something is completely ruined. In fact, it doesn't.

You can speculate all you want about how indoctrinated someone must be to be detected, but it's all guesses and assumptions.

#116
jijeebo

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ohupthis wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

Ovbiously Shepard doesn't agree with TIM, so he's not being Indoctrinated. If so, he would believe and agree with TIM.



You obviously missed the part of Shep shooting Anderson.

Fail.


You obviously missed the part of TIM forcing Shep to do so against his will.

Fail.

Modifié par jijeebo, 10 juin 2012 - 06:45 .


#117
Catamantaloedis

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BatmanTurian wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

Catamantaloedis wrote...

If the IT is true, then that means that ME is just full of bad writing. Compare the writing of KotOR where subtly throughout the entire game the writers leave clever hints which are finally revealed and you see the whole picture come together revealing Revan's true nature.

Now compare this to the IT where three times the Prothean VIs confirm that Shepard is not indoctrinated. The last time being at Cronos Station right on the brink of the last mission. If the IT is true, then writers aren't using clever and subtle hints to reveal that Shepard's indoctrinated. They are abusing the power of the writer over the storyline to literally lead you away from this conclusion three times, and then just suddenly throw it on you. Nonsense.

You either accept the endings, horrible though they may be, or you accept the Indoctrination Delusion with all this bad writing included.


Indoctrination is a process. Shepard isn't fully indoctrinated until making choices at the end. Therefore, of course the VI's wouldn't sense it Seriously, saying it over and over doesn't make it true.

Also, red herrings are used in stories all the time. In Game of Thrones, (spoilers) one would believe that Ned Stark is the primary protagonist of the series. Then he gets offed in the very first book. Clearly writers and film-makers fool their audiences all the time.


Those Prothean VIs must be rubbish if they can only detect indoctrinated beings and not those who are just about to be fully indoctrinated like Shepard is meant to be.


They are. Javik says so. It's how his people were infiltrated by traitors working for the Reapers.


You have no idea how available the Prothean VIs with their indoctrination detection technology were, therefore you can't comment on it. And logic dictates that they didn't have this technology just sitting around before they were betrayed by indoctrinated. They had to create it after indoctrinated agents attacked them.

However, the VIs we encounter are well established to be able to detect indoctrination, and they do not detect it in Shepard, but do detect it in Saren, Kai Leng, and Cerberus.

Modifié par Catamantaloedis, 10 juin 2012 - 06:47 .


#118
SubAstris

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dreamgazer wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

Those Prothean VIs must be rubbish if they can only detect indoctrinated beings and not those who are just about to be fully indoctrinated like Shepard is meant to be.


They either detect that a person's being manipulated against their will, or that they're not currently being manipulated against their will.

Not all that big of a leap, really.


Surely a full-on hallucination of the boy would count as manipulation against his will?

#119
dreamgazer

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Catamantaloedis wrote...

You can speculate all you want about how indoctrinated someone must be to be detected, but it's all guesses and assumptions.


You're doing the same with false positives and contrarian, selective interpretations. If my assumptions are invalid, so are yours

#120
jla0644

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Vox Draco wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

jla0644 wrote...

Do you understand that you're making this all up?


Do you understand that he's using the information provided in the game, and the universe, to come to this conclusion?


Few people seem to understand the concept of interpretation...


If it were being presented as an opinion, as one interpretation of many, that would be fine. But it is being presented as a fact that can have no other interpretation, that cannot be questioned.

None of that stuff about how indoctrination works -- fully or partially indoctrinated, off and on contact, resisting it but not stopping it -- none of that is from the games. It's stuff people have made up. That doesn't mean it isn't a viable interpretation. But that is still all it is.

Modifié par jla0644, 10 juin 2012 - 06:48 .


#121
dreamgazer

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SubAstris wrote...

Surely a full-on hallucination of the boy would count as manipulation against his will?


No, in the context of indoctrination, I'd consider it a whisper.

"Rana Thanoptis, an asari neuroscientist on Virmire, goes into more detail. She describes indoctrination as a subtle whisper you can't ignore, that compels you to do things without knowing why. Over days, perhaps a week of exposure to Sovereign's signal, the subject stops thinking for themselves and just obeys, eventually becoming a mindless servant."

#122
Catamantaloedis

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dreamgazer wrote...

Catamantaloedis wrote...

You can speculate all you want about how indoctrinated someone must be to be detected, but it's all guesses and assumptions.


You're doing the same with false positives and contrarian, selective interpretations. If my assumptions are invalid, so are yours


You're arguing that I'm speculating, because I believe that when the game says Shepard is not indoctrinated, he is not indoctrinated? That's just taking the game at face value.

You are the one speculating that when the game says Shepard isn't indoctrinated, it really means that he's not indoctrinated, yet, or he might be indoctrinated within 30-45 minutes. All without any proof of course.

I however, have proof as close to the ending as possible which in no uncertain terms express that Shepard is not indoctrinated.

Now tell me: which of these is more reasonable?

Modifié par Catamantaloedis, 10 juin 2012 - 06:52 .


#123
SubAstris

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BatmanTurian wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...


Indoctrinated Hanar diplomat at the citadel as well as TIM and Kai Leng disagree with your assertion. Bioware has been hitting us over the head with Indocrination since ME1. It's one of the pillars of the trilogy that furthers the plot and is as major a plot element as the Force in Star Wars.


I should have put indoctrination of Shepard, not indoctrination


And then we'd just disagree about interpretations of the dreams and Shepard's wierd mannerisms throughout the game, so I'll just agree to disagree with you.


Ok. But what weird mannerisms that can't be explained without resort to the immediate context


Shepard giving in to despair seems so unlike Shepard. Shepard not even giving the Catalyst a piece of his/her mind is unlike Shepard. Shepard having nightmares when nothing of the sort occurred after a) being an orphan on Earth B) surviving Akuze c) surviving the Skyllian Blitz d) seeing comrades die e) all of the messed up crap Shepard has seen and had to do before ME3.  But that's just my opinion, no need to spread it around.


Potentially, but BW have already stated that they wanted to give Shepard a more personal journey for ME3, hence things like him being emotional when the child is killed.

#124
BatmanTurian

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Catamantaloedis wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

Catamantaloedis wrote...

If the IT is true, then that means that ME is just full of bad writing. Compare the writing of KotOR where subtly throughout the entire game the writers leave clever hints which are finally revealed and you see the whole picture come together revealing Revan's true nature.

Now compare this to the IT where three times the Prothean VIs confirm that Shepard is not indoctrinated. The last time being at Cronos Station right on the brink of the last mission. If the IT is true, then writers aren't using clever and subtle hints to reveal that Shepard's indoctrinated. They are abusing the power of the writer over the storyline to literally lead you away from this conclusion three times, and then just suddenly throw it on you. Nonsense.

You either accept the endings, horrible though they may be, or you accept the Indoctrination Delusion with all this bad writing included.


Indoctrination is a process. Shepard isn't fully indoctrinated until making choices at the end. Therefore, of course the VI's wouldn't sense it Seriously, saying it over and over doesn't make it true.

Also, red herrings are used in stories all the time. In Game of Thrones, (spoilers) one would believe that Ned Stark is the primary protagonist of the series. Then he gets offed in the very first book. Clearly writers and film-makers fool their audiences and readers all the time.


Do you not see how that is being misleading? I've used this analogy before. It's like a doctor telling his patient that he doesn't have diabetes, while not telling him that he will likely become diabetic within the next few months. That's deceptive writing, and not the good kind either.

Additionally, you are speculating on the VI's ability to detect differing levels of indoctrination or the process of indoctrination. You have no idea how much of the "taint" of indoctrination the VIs could detect. 

Furthermore, it becomes increasingly unlikely that Shepard is indoctrinated, when he literally only has a 1 mission span within which he can become indoctrinated.

Finally, to the vast majority of players, being told that Shepard is not indoctrinated, would have dismissed any thought of idea from them completely.

Now compare this to KotOR where the writers cleverly lead you towards the Revan's role, and then completely, with dramatic cutscenes actually confirm it. In ME3 we have a horde of fans confused and pissed off and unable to understand what the hell happen.


Ugh, you are misinformed, sir.

1. Deceptive writing is used all the time. Whether it's moral or not is not the issue. An unreliable character or narrator is common enough.

2. I am not speculating. The proof comes from Javik himself, who says, paraphrasing, " the VI's did not work because my people were infiltrated by the enemy anyway ". Now whether the infiltrators hacked the VI's like TIM did or were being slowly indoctrinated like the scientists on the derelict reaper and at object Rho is speculation. However, for an agent to keep their sanity and be effective, the process has to be slow or the indoctrinee becomes a gibbering animal.

3. He does not have " literally one mission" . There are multiple times Shepard is exposed to Reapertech, Object Rho aside. Shepard has been exposed since ME1. Shepard has been in the vicinity of multiple Reaper capital ships and many Reaper destroyers, whom you fight in ME3. Also, artifacts that indoctrinated others and also in the presence of indoctrinated individuals who could be used to amplify a Reaper's Indoctrination signal. Shepard has had a lot of exposure.

4. Whether players dismiss it or not, does not make it untrue. The writer decides what is true and can trick the reader, revealing a surprise later. Some people like surprises. It keeps a story from being dull.

Modifié par BatmanTurian, 10 juin 2012 - 06:54 .


#125
dreamgazer

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jla0644 wrote...

Vox Draco wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

jla0644 wrote...

Do you understand that you're making this all up?


Do you understand that he's using the information provided in the game, and the universe, to come to this conclusion?


Few people seem to understand the concept of interpretation...


If it were being presented as an opinion, as one interpretation of many, that would be fine. But it is being presented as a fact that can have no other interpretation, that cannot be questioned.

None of that stuff about how indoctrination works -- fully or partially indoctrinated, off and on contact, resisting it but not stopping it -- none of that is from the games. It's stuff people have made up. That doesn't mean it isn't a viable interpretation. But that is still all it is.


Resisting indoctrination has been established in the lore, though it's essentially delaying the inevitable. Partial indoctrination has been established in the lore, as I quoted above. And Shepard's been established as an individual who can withstand a lot of mental abuse. 

It's an opinion, a valid interpretation, and a critical analysis of the data put in front of us.  That's all I can personally say on the matter, and the instant debasement of it by attributing the interpretation to flights of interpretive lunacy is acidic and ridiculous.