446 réponses à ce sujet

[Ehrgeix]

Timortis - I don't usually post on forums, but have followed this thread for a month~ or so and wanted to say thanks for the regular updates. It's much appreciated.

Also some questions -

I beat nightmare solo with a dw dex dwarf rogue, but I did mage tower early (before spellward or lifegiver) and it was super tough and like 20+ reloads (with like 10-15?~ required for the game thereafter) - any thoughts on optimal area progression? It feels like the circle tower is worth doing early, but not if it's that tough, I guess.

Also, I basically felt pretty invincible after getting lifegiver + felon's coat + spellward (and dweomer runes (all of this pretty early - dwarf bonus is super unfair)) - cadash stompers helped a little too. The only deaths were to chain overwhelms or an unresisted crushing prison. I finished the game at 28 armor and it feels like using heavy or plate is kind of unnecessary if you can do that earlier, but with deaths mainly coming from overwhelms I was kind of curious as to whether you figured massive armor/the str required for it was worthwhile (does massive armor even help vs overwhelm/grab?). If not normally worthwhile, would cailan's armor change this? +5 ! health regen on a set bonus feels amazingly good. Finally, if you did go for massive armor at what point do you think it'd be worth taking a break from pumping dex to get the required str?

Thanks for your time. =)

edit: also, pretty sure that if you're trying to solo the game using no potions cailan's armor + lifegiver would be a strong start.

Modifié par Ehrgeix, 02 février 2010 - 01:04 .

[knownastherat]

Not sure what the obsession with "no potions" is, Reaver has a heal which can be as powerful as the most potent pots, but credit where it is due, because "no potions" seems to be close to insanity nice work Timortis keep it up!

Few comments:

90 Shrapnel traps to kill the High Dragon - is there even enough mats for that many shrapnel traps? iirc buying all Metal Shards I could find, I had around 60-70 most on me at the time, though it is possible I used some during my play. the High Dragon can be killed with a bow without a single potion, that I know for sure, Flemeth might be another matter though.

Any solo with a melee character who "can get hit", is going to be harder than Dex melee character, be it DW warrior/rogue, Dex archer or even Dex sword and shield warrior.

The Ishal Ogre can also be shot with a bow without pots, not sure how else it is doable. Kitting ..?

"Optimal" order of quests was debated many times. I still believe that the Archivist's Sash from Denerim is invaluable item early on for a solo character, so is the Key to the City, so are Fade bonuses. This in my opinion defines the order of quests. Leaving the Circle at level 10 basically opens up most if not all quests. Usually, between level 10 and level 12 (which is kind of milestone level) it is possible to do bits here and there without much difficulty, except perhaps random encounters.

Modifié par knownastherat, 02 février 2010 - 02:23 .

[Timortis]

Reaver's heal is awesome, I wouldn't have been able to do most of those no potion fights with my Warriors without it. The reason I do the no potion thing is it adds another level of challenge. I've actually been doing this for a while in my solo runs. If you use 2-3 potions, all fights become trivial in my experience, which gets boring after a while. If you say "OK, I'm not going to use any potions", some encounters become really challenging again, and require more thought and effort, which is fun for me.

For example, yesterday, I did the fight with the bandits who stop you at the gates of Lothering. Now, I know you don't have to fight them then and there, but I like to anyway. :PI quickly realized that this was one fight I hadn't beaten without potions before. It was brutal and took a lot of retries and trying to figure out different strategies. There seems to be a strange thing there with the companions too. If you run away at the start of the fight, and let them kill your party off and stealth, when you move far away from them, they resurrect and become unkillable, when you move closer to them again, they become mortal again and are killed off, over and over. It's very odd.

As for quest order, I agree that doing the Circle Tower early is important. After Lothering, I do Honnleath, then I head to the tower. I've already done the whole tower with no potions in my last runs and it wasn't much of a problem. Uldred excepted of course, that I still don't know. You can stealth against him if you do it before he changes forms, if laying traps didn't randomly kick you out of stealth...

As long as you avoid getting stunned, you don't need much armor if you have high enough defense. I will however, make this character wear heavy armor, just because I want to try something different and I've already played 2 DW dex rogues. But no Cailan's armor for me, since I don't have RtO and I don't plan to get it. And yes, armor does help against overwhelm and grab, you do take less damage.

Modifié par Timortis, 02 février 2010 - 03:43 .

[simplificationizer]

Ok, after reading most of this (fantastic) thread, I have concluded that dexterity is overpowered and trivializes most fights. Do you think they will ever fix it? When I read about the solo rogue archer happily plucking away in melee and not getting hit, a part of me died.

[-Jaren-]

Thanks for the updates and this awesome thread Timortis. I've been following it since it started. My next character is going to be a 2H Zerk/Reaver *Cannot wait*



P.S. Cailen's armor set seems pretty broken for a 2H especially if you pump STR to wear it early.. Idk.. I might try to avoid it till endgame.

[Timortis]

Without dex working the way it does, Rogues would become too fragile, and the cunning Rogues people love so much would become totally unplayable.



High dex doesn't make you invulnerable, you're still one Dirty Fighting away from being torn to shreds.

[knownastherat]

Timortis wrote...

The reason I do the no potion thing is it adds another level of challenge. I've actually been doing this for a while in my solo runs. If you use 2-3 potions, all fights become trivial in my experience, which gets boring after a while. If you say "OK, I'm not going to use any potions", some encounters become really challenging again, and require more thought and effort, which is fun for me.

Yeah I got it I think, it adds depth, just could not get myself to try  .. apologies for the remark. Damn you if you will make it, because I'd be tempted to "verify" and I am not sure I could

[Wournos]

I doubt I'd be able to do a solo on the easiest level. Or maybe with more practice.

[simplificationizer]

Timortis wrote...

Without dex working the way it does, Rogues would become too fragile, and the cunning Rogues people love so much would become totally unplayable.

High dex doesn't make you invulnerable, you're still one Dirty Fighting away from being torn to shreds.

Yea, but defense stops specials, whereas armour only stops damage. But perhaps the problem isn't so much with dex, but with daggers (and bows). If you want to be virtually unhittable, you should pay the price, namely in negligible damage (which would result in tanks not being able to hold aggro, for example). A very high-dex character wielding a dagger gets both great defense and offense, and that is a problem.

Modifié par simplificationizer, 02 février 2010 - 05:30 .

[Timortis]

m14567 wrote...

Do you really believe that? Most dex built rogues have defense in the 170-180 range. With dex only giving .5 defense that would drop to about 130-140. Some people claim 115 is all you need to succeed and if you can't succeed with 115 you have to learn to play better...

Most cunning rogues have around 30-35 dex, so losing 10-13 defense doesn't seem like the end of the world to me.

Dex Rogues have 170+ defense because of Duelist and items, not just from dex, it's a trade off like anything else, to get more defense when you could be getting more damage instead.

Cunning Rogues tend to have 50 or more Dex with items, so yes, it would hurt them by lowering their already borderline low defense.

I've succeeded with under 70 defense on my 2H, doesn't mean it works for every character. Different builds have different strengths and weaknesses.

[Timortis]

simplificationizer wrote...

Yea, but defense stops specials, whereas armour only stops damage. But perhaps the problem isn't so much with dex, but with daggers (and bows). If you want to be virtually unhittable, you should pay the price, namely in negligible damage (which would result in tanks not being able to hold aggro, for example). A very high-dex character wielding a dagger gets both great defense and offense, and that is a problem.

It doesn't stop all specials. There are a lot of always-hit abilities in the game that do a ton of damage, and the most common 3 stuns are all auto-hit. Stuns reduce your dex to 0 and you lose all your defense already, so I don't see what the problem is. My unhittable archer can get torn to shreds by white Shrieks if I don't play carefully, because of their AoE stun.

Dagger damage is already heavily penalized, it has a 42% modifier vs 110% for axes, the reason people do so much damage with them is

a) Runes
Mage buffs
c) Tainted Blade

The problem is flat damage buffs not scaling with weapon speed, not daggers.

Modifié par Timortis, 02 février 2010 - 05:48 .

[simplificationizer]

Timortis wrote...

It doesn't stop all specials. There are a lot of always-hit abilities in the game that do a ton of damage, and the most common 3 stuns are all auto-hit. Stuns reduce your dex to 0 and you lose all your defense already, so I don't see what the problem is. My unhittable archer can get torn to shreds by white Shrieks if I don't play carefully, because of their AoE stun.

But most monsters in this game do straight damage.

Mind you, I'm not downplaying your achievements (you've made it hard enough for yourself with your original warrior solo ). I just feel it's a disgrace that an archer can get through most of the game solo shooting his bow in melee. That screams of broken game mechanics to me.

I expected something more akin to soloing an archer in BG2 (which was devilishly difficult in ToB; the whole point of attempting a solo, IMO).

[-Jaren-]

So Timortis for your Rogue Archer you get your base STR to 18, Cunning to around 30ish then pump DEX? Just curious what I should plan for if I decide to take one up.. Thx

[Timortis]

simplificationizer wrote...

But most monsters in this game do straight damage.

Mind you, I'm not downplaying your achievements (you've made it hard enough for yourself with your original warrior solo ). I just feel it's a disgrace that an archer can get through most of the game solo shooting his bow in melee. That screams of broken game mechanics to me.

I expected something more akin to soloing an archer in BG2 (which was devilishly difficult in ToB; the whole point of attempting a solo, IMO).

By most monsters you mean trash... Anything that's supposed to be challenging has special attacks, most of which are auto-hit. And as far as fighting trash goes, a Warrior in good armor but less defense feels as strong as a Rogue in less armor and with more defense, so I think they did a good job of balancing that aspect of the game. Everyone will have different opinions. Personally, I've never been a fan of games that made Rogues very weak in combat.

The reason archers are so good at becoming unhittable is not just because of dex, but because of Defensive Fire and Suppressing Fire.

Jaren, you don't need 18 Str, you can get by with less if you get stat boosting items early. And yes, after that just pump Dex, pretty much.

Modifié par Timortis, 02 février 2010 - 07:35 .

[-Jaren-]

Thx^.^ Yah I wanted to have enough STR to wear Felon's, Shadow of the Empire, etc, and was thinking 18 with Helm of Honnleath and Festival Ring early. Makes sense to not touch it further though.

[soteria]

I might have been among the first to make a big deal about no potions. My original reason was that I wanted to make videos that were relevant, and you're always seeing people ask, "How do I kill the Archdemon/Broodmother/Branka when I already used all my potions." Then, like Timortis, I realized it makes a number of otherwise trivial fights an interesting challenge and gave the game more longevity.

Do you really believe that? Most dex built rogues have defense in the 170-180 range. With dex only giving .5 defense that would drop to about 130-140. Some people claim 115 is all you need to succeed and if you can't succeed with 115 you have to learn to play better...



Most cunning rogues have around 30-35 dex, so losing 10-13 defense doesn't seem like the end of the world to me.

Wow, it's kinda wierd to have what I assume is what I said referred to in another thread. A couple points about this: I was talking about a character with 115 defense in massive armor, with a full group. A rogue in light armor, solo, is a different beast. At 40 armor, you can shrug off a lot of damage completely.



My current run has an archer tanking, and even though he has slightly higher defense, he still can get shredded quickly because his armor is lower. I actually have Sten tank certain monsters, like Uldred, because knockdown immunity and massive armor is a big deal.

[Timortis]

So I finished the fade on my no potion solo Rogue, next will be Uldred and we'll see if this run will end or continue.  Anyway, it's come up before whether a couple of fights up to here are doable solo with no potions, so I'm posting a few screenshots.

Wynn was just mentioned:

[Timortis]

Desire Demon on the 3rd floor, I haven't done the one on the 4th floor yet.

[Timortis]

Sloth Demon:

[Timortis]

Cheesy? Yes! Awesome? Yes!! The no potion solo run continues!

[dkjestrup]

So a caster mage, followed by a DW warrior should be fine? I'm just trying to play builds that aren't gimped on the console D:<

[Timortis]

Caster Mages are not hard except for a couple of fights, but on console might be different, since I assume precise targeting of CoC etc would be more difficult. I don't know though, never played on console.



Someone mentioned the Zevran encounter, here it is:

Before the ambush...



This is actually not a hard fight for a Rogue. The mage is immune to stun and knockdown, but she has few hp, one backstab + flurry will kill her. Here I've already killed the mage and one more, stealth is back off cd.



Moved to the other end of the map, using LoS to my advantage to pick them off one by one.



Done...

[dkjestrup]

I'd imagine soloing on console will be as close to the PC version as I can get, as the only real control difficulty (not being able to move characters you're not directly controlling) is ruled out.