168 réponses à ce sujet

[Korva]

I found this rather irritating too, and senselessly so. It's one thing if it's more common for men to fight, but to act like your plumbing automatically qualifies you for or disqualifies you from learning to defend yourself? Bullcrap. In dangerous frontier territory (which much of Ferelden qualifies as, I think) in particular, it's just more logical if every able-bodied person learns to shoot a bow and swing an axe or a spear. You double your militia numbers and the recruit base for your professionals that way.

Adria Teksuni wrote...

But just look who Eamon married. Total trophy wife. Supporting a bastard for the kingship because it "upholds the royal line"?

Isolde is a strike against Eamon. I really don't know what he could ever have seen in that airheaded little hypocrite who seems to be totally useless for anything besides wearing pretty dresses and breaking glass with her voice. Not to mention the age difference -- she looks like his kid more than like his wife.

(Though to be fair, we only meet her in a very extreme situation. Even so, she's ... underwhelming in the extreme.)

Servant of Nature wrote...

He's probably overcompensating because Rowan got to go off and rule the country while he got some castle out in hillbilly territory.

If by "rule the country" you mean "pop out a son and then proceed to be forgotten", yeah. Everyone goes on about Loghain, and to Maric to a lesser degree. Rowan? Nobody seems to care about her. I haven't read the books but this apparent lack of respect combined with the fact that her kid gets himself killed before the game even gets off the ground is ... a bit sad. She gave up what she wanted only to slip into obscurity and have one of her husband's bastards on the throne.

I don't know ... after reading some reports here on the forum of what Loghain says about Alistair and Maric gave me a dislike for both Eamon and Maric. The king screws around, fathering at least two bastards (sons of course). I think both cases happened after Rowan's death, but my memory could deceive me about Alistair since it's been a while since I played that revelation. So it's not adultery per se.

Still,  Maric refuses to take responsibility for the poor kid because that would dishonor the memory of his wife? Maybe he should have thought about that BEFORE the act then. Especially since he did it in the castle of his very own brother-in-law. But instead of owning up to his mistake, he washes his hands off the kid. The mother conveniently dies. The sister who suspects the truth (and can't have been much more than a child then, herself) is kicked out of the castle. Eamon keeps an eye on the boy but apparently doesn't bother go instill any confidence and self-worth, and also throws him away when his little trophy wife demands it. Really responsible men, these two.

From a meta-gaming perspective it makes me want to put Anora on the throne next time around but since my characters couldn't get all the info it'd be hard to justify IC on those grounds.

Modifié par Korva, 12 décembre 2009 - 08:58 .

[Curlain]

Unless Alistair is the Grey Warden Fiona's child, as some speculate he might be, as this might make more sense of Eamon taking Alistair in (seems strange he would help not only care for, but raise a bastard that Maric concieved at his castle while married to Eamon's sister, and not only this but Eamon and Teagan would keep this from Rowan). It would also mean Maric wasn't quite the dirty rat that the ingame story suggests (as he meant Fiona post Rowan's death), in some ways I'd prefer that since it more fits with Maric's character (he didn't seem the kind to cheat in marrige), but then again, Loghain does say Alistair was at Redcliffe to keep for Rowan knowing which suggests that Alistair was born prior to her death, in which case Maric really had trouble keeping his trousers on when it came to pretty women

[LdyShayna]

Someone tell me this is a thread full of sarcasm. 

And Korva, please watch the language.  Thanks.

Modifié par LdyShayna, 12 décembre 2009 - 08:49 .

[Forumtroll]

Catt128 wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Adria Teksuni wrote...

Teagan has his own ultra talented death maiden squad, they just happened to be ogre hunting in the west when all this happened.

But just look who Eamon married. Total trophy wife. Supporting a bastard for the kingship because it "upholds the royal line"? Bosh. He just didn't want Anora to get the throne and have to bend knee to a ruling queen.

Say what you want about Loghain, his commanding officer was a chick.

Yes, just look who Eamon married. A brainless piece of eyecandy whose function is little more than a heavily decorated womb on two legs. If I was married to that, I'd probably think women were useless too.

I myself would have liked it if Ser Cauthrien was a playable character and a romance option for males (or females). I think she would have made an interesting join.

For some reason i think that Loghain and her could have something. It reminds me of the relationship Renly Baratheon and Brienne (this is from a song of ice and fire). Renly was "king" and Brienne was a female knight who was in love with him.

Slightly off-topic, but Renly was gay and having an affair with Loras. Brienne just had a crush.

[Nhani]

Actually, consider the Cousland Teyrny - if my memory serves, their guards and army were largely as all-male as those of the Redcliffe arling, and this in spite of Teyrna Eleanor Cousland being quite adept at cutting down Howe goons. From what I recall seeing, it seems it was only the forces of Denerim and those of the Mac Tir teyrny that actually had a substantial amount of women in their ranks.

Hm. You know, is this where we blame that fact on Arl Eamon and his orleasian sympathies and actually divulge that Loghain is against Orlais because of its Orlesian Wallflowers? 

[Korva]

Sorry. I'll edit a bit.

Curlain wrote...

Unless Alistair is the Grey Warden Fiona's child, as some speculate he might be, as this might make more sense of Eamon taking Alistair in (seems strange he would help not only care for, but raise a bastard that Maric concieved at his castle while married to Eamon's sister, and not only this but Eamon and Teagan would keep this from Rowan).

As I said I didn't read the books, but I recall someone (Maric? Duncan?) had to promise Fiona to keep that bastard son away from the Wardens? Even if times are desperate for the Wardens it would seem strange to break such a promise made to a friend. Unless Duncan lost track of the kid and didn't recognize him at that Templar tournament until it was too late ... But that sounds odd, too. And if Alistair is that son, how does Goldanna's story fit in? I can imagine her getting kicked out if she makes a false accusation against the king, but why would they lie to Alistair about who is mom was?

[Curlain]

Korva wrote...

Sorry. I'll edit a bit.

Curlain wrote...

Unless Alistair is the Grey Warden Fiona's child, as some speculate he might be, as this might make more sense of Eamon taking Alistair in (seems strange he would help not only care for, but raise a bastard that Maric concieved at his castle while married to Eamon's sister, and not only this but Eamon and Teagan would keep this from Rowan).

As I said I didn't read the books, but I recall someone (Maric? Duncan?) had to promise Fiona to keep that bastard son away from the Wardens? Even if times are desperate for the Wardens it would seem strange to break such a promise made to a friend. Unless Duncan lost track of the kid and didn't recognize him at that Templar tournament until it was too late ... But that sounds odd, too. And if Alistair is that son, how does Goldanna's story fit in? I can imagine her getting kicked out if she makes a false accusation against the king, but why would they lie to Alistair about who is mom was?

If I understand the theory right (and I haven't read the 2nd book either so I'm going on 2nd hand info gathered from the forum, so I might not get everything right ) but Duncan and Fiona returned the child to Maric at some point under the promise he would never know about Fiona (or being a child of a Grey Warden, or an elf for that matter, as she didn't want her child growing up with that stigma), Duncan would in this theory have kept an eye on Alistair once he was placed with Eamon for safe keeping.  Goldanna's mother actually did die in childbirth and her actual child did die, just as they told Goldanna, but she became the cover story they told Alistair.  Alistair himself is actually never told (in accordance with Fiona's wishes) and now nearly everyone who knows is dead (Eamon and Teagan might know Alistair is not Goldanna's mother's child but not more then this), as both Duncan and Maric are gone.  Possibly Fiona is still alive (as she became immune from the taint completely somehow and didn't go mad and die after 30 years as other Grey Wardens do.

As far as I can gather that's the theory (again I haven't actually read the Callting yet so I could be wrong on some things), and the idea seems to contradict some things Loghain says, but I guess he could be wrong.  Anyhow I'm not sure either way (also the one thing going for the theory is it's more cosistant with Maric's character)

[Servant of Nature]

@Korva: I was under the impression this was a sarcastic thread, thus I was making a joke. Rowan was my favorite character in the novels. *shrug* Silly text not showing sarcasm.

[Adria Teksuni]

Serenity84 wrote...

Adria Teksuni wrote...
For example, in the United States military, women are prohibited from ground combat.

Officially, yes. They can't join frontline infantry, armor or artillery units.

Unofficially, it's a bit different. They can be military police, which is usually nothing but light infantry these days and used for such things as reconnaissance and convoy escorts. As medics, they can also be involved in ground combat (even more so in other countries like Great Britain where they are more common on patrols). Supply units are a prime target - especially in assymetrical wars. In Iraq, female Marines were used at checkpoints and during house searches to deal with other women. It's mostly politicians who try to prevent it, but reality interferes with that a bit.
Aside from that, almost all combat aviation jobs are open to women.

And I'd say some European countries are further along with women in combat than Israel. There, women are conscripted, but most serve in support and training units. In combat, they're rare too.

Are you kidding me with this post?

As far as the Eamon debate, yeah, mine are sarcasm, but THO does have some excellent points about Eamon's portrayal.

Modifié par Adria Teksuni, 12 décembre 2009 - 09:29 .

[The Angry One]

Equal parts sarcasm and female powah. Duh.

Nhani wrote...

Actually, consider the Cousland Teyrny - if my memory serves, their guards and army were largely as all-male as those of the Redcliffe arling, and this in spite of Teyrna Eleanor Cousland being quite adept at cutting down Howe goons. From what I recall seeing, it seems it was only the forces of Denerim and those of the Mac Tir teyrny that actually had a substantial amount of women in their ranks.

True but then the majority of the Highever army has already marched. And you see male servants. :happy:
On the other hand Howe's army appears to be largely male save for that elven thug he employed in the Pearl, but then we'd just add sexism to his "virtues". Damn Howe and his suave voice!

Edit: Perhaps the further east you go in Ferelden, the more equal things are. In the far west you have Redcliffe, then Highever in the middle, then to the east you have Denerim and Gwaren where the majority of female fighters are from.
Hell, Loghain himself gave me the more impassioned "Female Grey Wardens, rah!" speech in the early game. And he intended to kill me!

Modifié par The Angry One, 12 décembre 2009 - 09:31 .

[AtreiyaN7]

Yeah, well, I didn't notice a ton of female soldiers anywhere else in Ferelden, with the exceptions of Ser Cauthrien and maybe a few women at Ostagar. I'm going to go out on a limb here & say that that's what most of Ferelden is like - men are generally the soldiers & women generally aren't. It is kind of based on medieval Europe, isn't it? How many female soldiers/knights have you heard of from that period in our history?

Also, how exactly can you connect Arl Eamon to Mayor Murdock's attitude/behavior? Is Eamon Murdock's nursemaid? Does he tell all the men in his arling what to do/what to think? I believe that the reason Murdock was surprised is because of A) the rarity of Grey Wardens in the first place, the extreme rarity of female Grey Wardens on top of that and C) he could be sexist - some guys just are, but you can't blame that on another person. Anyhow, Murdock seemed to end up respecting you later anyway. I think even Alistair comments on the rarity of female Wardens btw.

As for having the women fight to save Redcliffe...really? I'm female, and I think what they did was realistic and sensible in the context of the historical period being portrayed. I kind of doubt that your average village woman even has rudimentary fighting skills. I suspect that they'd be more likely to lop of hubby's arm by mistake instead of hacking off a zombie's head if given a sword. Also, I imagine that along with the whole medieval vibe, Ferelden men in general do believe in things like chivalry, and so, it was the trained militia's responsibility to handle things.

Really important point here: Arl Eamon was zonked out and catatonic the whole time Redcliffe was under attack (you know, being DEATHLY ILL AND UNCONSCIOUS & ALL), so unless you think he was sending out telepathic messages telling the other men in his arling to engage in sexist behavior, then...no. Furthermore, he actually considers Anora a capable administrator treats her as being intelligent and possibly dangerous based on his comments about heer. He doesn't treat her like a bit of fluff. I don't think Arl Eamon can be called a "sexist pig" at all.

There are plenty of strong females around anyway. After all, if you play the human noble origin, the teyrna kicks arse. Overall, I don't think anyone's particularly sexist - it's just that men are generally the soldiers. You still get women who kick butt & it's not as if they're NOT allowed to be fighters/soldiers/whatver. Plenty of strong women around like Isabela, Anora, Morrigan, Leliana, the PC, whoever. I laugh at the whole "Arl Eamon is sexist thing."

Finally, as for the female chevalier thing. Yep, the Orlesians have them, but it doesn't necessarily sound like chevaliers on the whole are all that noble. From the story that Orlesian woman in the Denerim marketplace tells, they have special rights to take whatever they want from commoners. She does tell that story about her brother attacking a chevalier who tried to/did rape her. It's not like every chevalier is a wonderful, noble soul - despite having nifty horsies & shiny armor. It sounds to me that a lot of them can be extremely thuggish to be quite honest and that they do it for power. The point of this is, that I wouldn't condemn all of them by extrapolating from ONE single person/incident - kind of like how I wouldn't call Arl Eamon a sexist pig just because of the behavior of one man (Murdock).

** Blast it - I wish the paragraph spacing were consistent - grrr, editing.

Modifié par AtreiyaN7, 12 décembre 2009 - 09:39 .

[Loc'n'lol]

Fridge logic at work : what do female dwarves born in the warrior caste do ?

[LdyShayna]

A snippet from the The Calling, for those who have not read the book:

"I wish..." Fiona shook her head firmly. "No, what I want is for him to be human. I want him to be fully human and not in line for the throne, not competing with your other son and tied to this royal blood that has brought you nothing but grief. I want him to have a fresh start." She looked at him hopefully. "You can do that, can't you?"

"I can have him raised away from court," Maric said, considering. "But people are bound to wonder who his mother is. Loghain will want to know. The child will almost certainly want to know...What will we tell him?"

"Tell him nothing. Let him think his mother is human, and dead." She reached over to where Duncan gently cooed and rocked the baby, patting his head with a melancholy smile. "It will be easier, for him and for you."

"What about for you?"

She made no response, simply continued to stroke the child's forehead. He noticed that her eyes glistened brightly, however. No, there wasn't any way this would be easier for her.

"I'll watch him," Duncan vowed. "I can do that without arousing suspicion, maek sure he's doing well. Keep him safe. I can even bring you news, from time to time."

Maric looked up at him, surprised. "You owuld do that?"

"For you, Your Majesty, without hesitation."




I still lean towards Alistair being Fiona and Maric's son, but I do know there are good timing reasons that bring it into doubt. The vows made here go hand in hand with the need to make a cover story, however, and as a motivation to lie to Alistair.

Modifié par LdyShayna, 12 décembre 2009 - 09:44 .

[Korva]

*scratches head* The thing with Fiona's child sounds a bit complicated. Or maybe it's just a case of players reading too much into things. We're good at that. Can anyone who has read the books clarify the nature of the promise made to Fiona?

Edit: Thank you LdyShayna. Just as I was writing this! Hmm. Loghain wouldn't be in on the secret then. If this story is true I'll retract some of my annoyance with Maric, though Eamon really should have done a better job of taking care of the boy. Still ... Fiona demands that her son should NOT be tied to royal blood. If Alistair is hers, they definitely did break that promise long before it become "necessary" by telling the kid who his father was. I think I'm still confused.


When does Loghain say something about female Wardens? I talked his guard into letting me talk to him -- and he seemed quite sensible then, I actually liked him in that conversation -- but don't recall him commenting on my characters' gender.

(And yes there's obviously sarcasm in that thread, but the thing with Redcliffe did make me roll my eyes. As did no one mentioning Rowan except, as I recall, in terms of who she's related to.)

Modifié par Korva, 12 décembre 2009 - 09:50 .

[The Angry One]

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

Yeah, well, I didn't notice a ton of female soldiers anywhere else in Ferelden, with the exceptions of Ser Cauthrien and maybe a few women at Ostagar. I'm going to go out on a limb here & say that that's what most of Ferelden is like - men are generally the soldiers & women generally aren't. It is kind of based on medieval Europe, isn't it? How many female soldiers/knights have you heard of from that period in our history?

Hence my first sentence in the OP....

Also, how exactly can you connect Arl Eamon to Mayor Murdock's attitude/behavior? Is Eamon Murdock's nursemaid? Does he tell all the men in his arling what to do/what to think? I believe that the reason Murdock was surprised is because of A) the rarity of Grey Wardens in the first place, the extreme rarity of female Grey Wardens on top of that and C) he could be sexist - some guys just are, but you can't blame that on another person. Anyhow, Murdock seemed to end up respecting you later anyway. I think even Alistair comments on the rarity of female Wardens btw.

Alistair comments on it more to address the fact that there should be, if only because being surrounded by large hairy men all day does little for him..

As for having the women fight to save Redcliffe...really? I'm female, and I think what they did was realistic and sensible in the context of the historical period being portrayed. I kind of doubt that your average village woman even has rudimentary fighting skills. I suspect that they'd be more likely to lop of hubby's arm by mistake instead of hacking off a zombie's head if given a sword. Also, I imagine that along with the whole medieval vibe, Ferelden men in general do believe in things like chivalry, and so, it was the trained militia's responsibility to handle things.

Like I said it seems to be more of a regional thing, and I'd even agree if that was what Redcliffe was used to.
If not for Lloyd. LLOYD. Tomas is a bit of a wet blanket too, though at least he's not carrying around 500 pounds of blubber.

Finally, as for the female chevalier thing. Yep, the Orlesians have them, but it doesn't necessarily sound like chevaliers on the whole are all that noble. From the story that Orlesian woman in the Denerim marketplace tells, they have special rights to take whatever they want from commoners. She does tell that story about her brother attacking a chevalier who tried to/did rape her. It's not like every chevalier is a wonderful, noble soul - despite having nifty horsies & shiny armor. It sounds to me that a lot of them can be extremely thuggish to be quite honest and that they do it for power. The point of this is, that I wouldn't condemn all of them by extrapolating from ONE single person/incident - kind of like how I wouldn't call Arl Eamon a sexist pig just because of the behavior of one man (Murdock).

Never implied that Chevalier are particularily virtuous now, they sound like a right bunch of tossers.

Modifié par The Angry One, 12 décembre 2009 - 09:41 .

[DeathWyrmNexus]

Ya know... Ser Cauthrien just made me hate her. Talking about loyalty and honor when it was convenient for her and then it was just one persuade before she was backing down like a whipped dog.



I could actually respect Jarvia in an odd and creepy way just as I could appreciate Morrigan's upbringing skewing everything she saw.



Ser Cauthrien had no excuse. She knew the right thing at the very beginning and chose to be a servant, even talking down to you at the preLandsmeet. She is perfectly happy to play at honor and duty until you bring logic right in her face.



I've only spared her once and I won't again.



As for Arl Eamon... I can't help but agree. Especially his "she seems... Spirited." The lift to his step and tone made me chuckle because I knew exactly what he meant. Also, you have to consider what he married. A pretty flower with not much else to it. No intellectual depth, no conviction until the last minute, no worth beyond money and her husband.



As for the rest of them... I wouldn't exactly hold the village against the Arl, I think that might simply be a regional thing. On average, a guy does have more upper body strength, blah blah blah, I hate that argument since I've known plenty of strong women. Anyway, I believe that whole area to be a product of its culture, Arl and all.



So yea, I find the Arl mildly sexist due to all that but I never had him give my Warden any sass. Then again, hard to sass somebody who just saved your bacon and all you know...

[Popemaster123]

Adria Teksuni wrote...

What cinched it for me was when he told my human femnoble to fetch his slippers and pipe.

What a pig.

I LOL'ed i don't think he is any more sexist than someone like Teagan, bearing in mind Teagan asks a female char (at least a mage) if shes willing to marry which is kinda sexist, but Eamon?Naw hes juts an old buzzard slightly set in his ways.

[The Angry One]

Popemaster123 wrote...

Adria Teksuni wrote...

What cinched it for me was when he told my human femnoble to fetch his slippers and pipe.

What a pig.

I LOL'ed i don't think he is any more sexist than someone like Teagan, bearing in mind Teagan asks a female char (at least a mage) if shes willing to marry which is kinda sexist, but Eamon?Naw hes juts an old buzzard slightly set in his ways.

That's hardly sexist, since he asks you if you're married after you ask him if he is.
Always good to get that info out of the way..

[Popemaster123]

The Angry One wrote...

Popemaster123 wrote...

Adria Teksuni wrote...

What cinched it for me was when he told my human femnoble to fetch his slippers and pipe.

What a pig.

I LOL'ed i don't think he is any more sexist than someone like Teagan, bearing in mind Teagan asks a female char (at least a mage) if shes willing to marry which is kinda sexist, but Eamon?Naw hes juts an old buzzard slightly set in his ways.

That's hardly sexist, since he asks you if you're married after you ask him if he is.
Always good to get that info out of the way..

Always annoyed me that did though,if you are a grey warden and hes always talking about duty and doing the right thing, why does he ask someones who is trying to save his village about marriage?
and BTW why does he only meet a young woman (kaitlyn) if she has enough money? surely he saw her in the chantry?

[Adria Teksuni]

Well...there's always time for flirting, Popemaster.

[LdyShayna]

DeathWyrmNexus wrote...
Also, you have to consider what he married. A pretty flower with not much else to it. No intellectual depth, no conviction until the last minute, no worth beyond money and her husband.

I don't understand this logic.  Why is this more proof that he is sexist than it is proof that Isolde is an otherwise worthless gold digger? After all, Eamon was so besotted with her that he risked a great deal against the king and his fellow countrymen by marrying an Orlesian like that.  If he was interested in little more than a pretty trophy, wouldn't it have been less work and risk to just find some pretty little thing in Ferelden?

Modifié par LdyShayna, 12 décembre 2009 - 10:06 .

[The Angry One]

Popemaster123 wrote...

Always annoyed me that did though,if you are a grey warden and hes always talking about duty and doing the right thing, why does he ask someones who is trying to save his village about marriage?

Because you've engaged him in a convo about his personal life, which you passed a persuade check for.

and BTW why does he only meet a young woman (kaitlyn) if she has enough money? surely he saw her in the chantry?

Maybe, but I suspect she was too busy blubbering about her brother to notice His Divine Hotness, and he was too busy organising the defenses.

[Popemaster123]

Lol not when bloody corpes are tryingto eat you, honestly you'd thin they'd ever read the Zombie Survival Guide!

[Korva]

Teagan does what? *blink* When? Sounds like I miss out some rather ... odd moments by not being interested in men. Now I wonder if, in the case of a female human noble, he might have been a contender in mom's and dad's eyes. Or is he older than he looks?

DeathWyrmNexus wrote...

Ya know... Ser Cauthrien just made me hate her. Talking about loyalty and honor when it was convenient for her and then it was just one persuade before she was backing down like a whipped dog.

(...)

I've only spared her once and I won't again.

I might not, either. She was someone I wanted to like ... but she badly lacks screentime that would allow me to understand and like her, and her sudden turnabout was odd. Technically, isn't the Landsmeet supposed to happen pretty much right after Howe's estate (and Fort Drakon if you go that way)? So I don't know what could have changed her mind in that short timespan.

[Popemaster123]

The Angry One wrote...

and BTW why does he only meet a young woman (kaitlyn) if she has enough money? surely he saw her in the chantry?

Maybe, but I suspect she was too busy blubbering about her brother to notice His Divine Hotness, and he was too busy organising the defenses.

Divine hotness? Really?
Was he really banging Isolde? i never did find out in the end...