168 réponses à ce sujet

[Taleroth]

I have uncovered secret evidence that Teagan is the true power in Redcliffe. The oppression of women is done solely by his word. He detaches himself from the position of power so that he can draw more in to his trap.

[Adria Teksuni]

Lol not when bloody corpes are tryingto eat you, honestly you'd thin they'd ever read the Zombie Survival Guide!

But...without the flirtatious banter, how can you ever expect to have the hopelessly desperate love scene?

Modifié par Adria Teksuni, 12 décembre 2009 - 10:03 .

[The Angry One]

Popemaster123 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

and BTW why does he only meet a young woman (kaitlyn) if she has enough money? surely he saw her in the chantry?

Maybe, but I suspect she was too busy blubbering about her brother to notice His Divine Hotness, and he was too busy organising the defenses.

Divine hotness? Really?
Was he really banging Isolde? i never did find out in the end...

Yes. Really.
And it's implied...

[The Angry One]

Taleroth wrote...

I have uncovered secret evidence that Teagan is the true power in Redcliffe. The oppression of women is done solely by his word. He detaches himself from the position of power so that he can draw more in to his trap.

Well if that's the case I'll just have to punish him. Where are the chains and whips around here..

[Adria Teksuni]

Teagan, you have been very naughty...

[andybuiadh]

Ahh rubber and latex, Teagans only weakness.

[DeathWyrmNexus]

LdyShayna wrote...

DeathWyrmNexus wrote...
Also, you have to consider what he married. A pretty flower with not much else to it. No intellectual depth, no conviction until the last minute, no worth beyond money and her husband.

I don't understand this logic.  Why is this more proof that he is sexist than it is proof that Isolde is an otherwise worthless gold digger? After all, if Eamon was so besottd with her that he risked a great deal again the king and his fellow countrymen by marrying an Orlesian like that.  If he was interested in little more than a pretty trophy, wouldn't it have been less work and risk to just find some pretty little thing in Ferelden?

Fair enough though I do tend to judge men by their tastes in women. Is it really that hard to find a woman with more depth than a tablespoon? Sure, he risks a lot for her. I know men who think of women as trophies and still do a lot for them. However, while I am sure he loves her, I am pretty sure it isn't for her mind and depth of character.

[The Angry One]

To be fair, even in an entirely equal society some would still tend to go for the vapid and hot among us.

[Adria Teksuni]

The Angry One wrote...

To be fair, even in an entirely equal society some would still tend to go for the vapid and hot among us.

True.  Even the truly misogynistic can be stupid in the face of smittenness.

Just because he might have risked much does not automatically clear him of being a sexist.  He could have thought she was in a situation where she was vulnerable, and being a woman, unable to protect herself so he just had to step in and save her.

Plenty of men will go to great lengths to get and protect what they think belongs to them.

[Fishy]

The Angry One wrote...

Well as we know in the world of Dragon Age attitudes are considerably less sexist than in real life, even today. While the majority of the armies are made up by men, women who are capable of fighting are welcome and treated as equals. Loghain and the King's armies in particular had a fair few women.
And we know it's not something peculiar to Ferelden, what with a fraction of Orlesian Chevaliers being women.

Which brings us to Redcliffe, where first the Mayor is surprised they make women Grey Wardens, then you find out every single woman is to stay hiding in the Chantry like the weaklings they are. How.. jarring.
Now yes, different regions, different customs, obviously. But it's still somewhat irritating. I might even accept it if we say that the men concentrate on fighting here so the women are inexperienced.. but then you can have Lloyd fight outside too. Lloyd! An overweight, unfit, unskilled bartender!
And Eamon's the guy Alistair wants to put on the throne. I wager we'd be back in the dark(er) ages with him in charge. Say what you want about Loghain, at least he's progressive!

Teagan is of course blameless in this whole thing, attempt to implicate him at your peril.

Okay but next time you ask yer husband about lifting heavy stuff.Think about what you said lol..
It's normal anyway  . man are geneticaly more powerful and strong than woman .. It's the nature of thing.

Whole woman are geneticaly more gracious than man.

Modifié par Suprez30, 12 décembre 2009 - 10:15 .

[LdyShayna]

Adria Teksuni wrote...
True.  Even the truly misogynistic can be stupid in the face of smittenness.

Just because he might have risked much does not automatically clear him of being a sexist.  He could have thought she was in a situation where she was vulnerable, and being a woman, unable to protect herself so he just had to step in and save her.

Plenty of men will go to great lengths to get and protect what they think belongs to them.

??

I saw no indication that he IS misogynist, though.  While having Isolde as a wife may not CLEAR him of it, it isn't PROOF of it either, and at no time does he even remotely act like she's his possession.

Did you guys play a different game than me?  Heh.

[AtreiyaN7]

The Angry One wrote...

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

Yeah, well, I didn't notice a ton of female soldiers anywhere else in Ferelden, with the exceptions of Ser Cauthrien and maybe a few women at Ostagar. I'm going to go out on a limb here & say that that's what most of Ferelden is like - men are generally the soldiers & women generally aren't. It is kind of based on medieval Europe, isn't it? How many female soldiers/knights have you heard of from that period in our history?

Hence my first sentence in the OP....

Also, how exactly can you connect Arl Eamon to Mayor Murdock's attitude/behavior? Is Eamon Murdock's nursemaid? Does he tell all the men in his arling what to do/what to think? I believe that the reason Murdock was surprised is because of A) the rarity of Grey Wardens in the first place, the extreme rarity of female Grey Wardens on top of that and C) he could be sexist - some guys just are, but you can't blame that on another person. Anyhow, Murdock seemed to end up respecting you later anyway. I think even Alistair comments on the rarity of female Wardens btw.

Alistair comments on it more to address the fact that there should be, if only because being surrounded by large hairy men all day does little for him..

As for having the women fight to save Redcliffe...really? I'm female, and I think what they did was realistic and sensible in the context of the historical period being portrayed. I kind of doubt that your average village woman even has rudimentary fighting skills. I suspect that they'd be more likely to lop of hubby's arm by mistake instead of hacking off a zombie's head if given a sword. Also, I imagine that along with the whole medieval vibe, Ferelden men in general do believe in things like chivalry, and so, it was the trained militia's responsibility to handle things.

Like I said it seems to be more of a regional thing, and I'd even agree if that was what Redcliffe was used to.
If not for Lloyd. LLOYD. Tomas is a bit of a wet blanket too, though at least he's not carrying around 500 pounds of blubber.

Finally, as for the female chevalier thing. Yep, the Orlesians have them, but it doesn't necessarily sound like chevaliers on the whole are all that noble. From the story that Orlesian woman in the Denerim marketplace tells, they have special rights to take whatever they want from commoners. She does tell that story about her brother attacking a chevalier who tried to/did rape her. It's not like every chevalier is a wonderful, noble soul - despite having nifty horsies & shiny armor. It sounds to me that a lot of them can be extremely thuggish to be quite honest and that they do it for power. The point of this is, that I wouldn't condemn all of them by extrapolating from ONE single person/incident - kind of like how I wouldn't call Arl Eamon a sexist pig just because of the behavior of one man (Murdock).

Never implied that Chevalier are particularily virtuous now, they sound like a right bunch of tossers.

Yes, I realize that. As for the Alistair comment, I believe there was actually a line at some point where you could ask him about the lack of female Wardens/rarity and he gave a semi-serious answer about the issue as opposed to that joke about the hairy guys - unless I managed to completely lose my mind and/or mixed up character dialogue (entirely possible after burning through formatting four manuscripts yesterday - UGH - oh God, not another reason for a new playthrough - NOOOOO!).

As for the Lloyd issue - the guy is flat-out a selfish jerk. I think he's just supposed to be so odious, obnoxious and annoying that you WANT to force his sorry butt to fight to save the village, hoping for some divine justice in the process. After all, should he expire while defending the village, you're probably doing everyone a huge favor and get to enjoy having sent him to his doom (not that I've done it - although, maybe I should sometime even if I am a goody-two-shoes - he is such a huge jerk!). I totally agree that it goes against all logic and reason to have tubbo out there fighting, but see above about my thoughts on Lloyd. Honestly, I think Lloyd is more likely to have a heart attack & kill one of the militiamen by accident when he lands on top of one of them. Let's be fair to Tomas though: at least the guy seems to be able to handle his bow & arrow reasonably well.

And on the chevaliers: yep, "tossers" seems appropriate. I just don't see holding them up as an example of Orlesians being less sexist as quite working when a lot of them seem likely to be morally bankrupt. *shrug* According to Leliana's story about Aveline, the Orlesians are/were more sexist than even Fereldens, possibly? It was only after Aveline's final match with whatshisname who killed her that their king allowed women to become chevaliers and saw how wrong things were. Oh well, I'm sure at least some of them must be noble...maybe...well, Aveline was at least.

Modifié par AtreiyaN7, 12 décembre 2009 - 10:18 .

[DeathWyrmNexus]

Adria Teksuni wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

To be fair, even in an entirely equal society some would still tend to go for the vapid and hot among us.

True.  Even the truly misogynistic can be stupid in the face of smittenness.

Just because he might have risked much does not automatically clear him of being a sexist.  He could have thought she was in a situation where she was vulnerable, and being a woman, unable to protect herself so he just had to step in and save her.

Plenty of men will go to great lengths to get and protect what they think belongs to them.

As a man, this. Man's home is his castle and all that rot. I like to think of myself as enlightened but I am still very territorial over my home and family. So somebody messing with my wife is messing with MY WOMAN!!! Rawr!!!

So yea, I respect her as a person but she is also mine. Luckily, this works for her. Crazy woman that she is.

[Curlain]

LdyShayna wrote...

Adria Teksuni wrote...
True.  Even the truly misogynistic can be stupid in the face of smittenness.

Just because he might have risked much does not automatically clear him of being a sexist.  He could have thought she was in a situation where she was vulnerable, and being a woman, unable to protect herself so he just had to step in and save her.

Plenty of men will go to great lengths to get and protect what they think belongs to them.

??

I saw no indication that he IS misogynist, though.  While having Isolde as a wife may not CLEAR him of it, it isn't PROOF of it either, and at no time does he even remotely act like she's his possession.

Did you guys play a different game than me?  Heh.

The sad truth is Eamon isn't Teagan, and therefore the poor sap shall always be hated (by not being the love machine his brother is), and so more justified reasons must be found to cast the poor man out .

Poor guy, to be the brother of Teagan must really suck, knowing everyone loves him (inlcuding that Orlaisian gold digger you risked everything for )

[The Angry One]

Suprez30 wrote...

Okay but next time you ask yer husband about lifting heavy stuff.Think about what you said lol..
It's normal anyway  . man are geneticaly more powerful and strong than woman .. It's the nature of thing.

Whole woman are geneticaly more gracious than man.

That depends on a great many things; men have denser musclacture, sure. But you know what they say, it's not what you've got, it's how you use it!

[NatOreN]

I find it hard to consider Arl Eamon a sexist in relation to his surroundings.



First, there's the whole "Alistair should be king" thing. There is nothing or at least very little here suggesting his alleged sexism. His primary, if not only reason for wanting Alistair on the throne, is because he is the ancestor of King Calenhad, the man who united Ferelden. To some, blood relations are more important, as Eamon himself and more point out. I'm certain if Maric's child had been female, Eamon would have wanted her on the throne (And, no, don't go bringing script into this).



Second, there's the Arl's knights and the macho-militia. Like others have pointed out, most of the Arl's knights were away from Redcliffe, and if any had been at the castle they were obviously dead. Adding to that the fact that few women are actually knights in general, this makes it very unlikely that you would encounter one in Redcliffe.

Macho-militia is a somewhat similar case. You've got a whole bunch of villagers with little-to-no military training at all. I find it fairly obvious that there would be only men to be found here, since men are normally considered stronger. And which would you prefer when fighting off enemies with nothing but villagers, women whose usual tasks are minding the children, making food, doing the laundry and other chores at the house or men who most go through the day building, smithing, carrying heavy objects like boxes of supplies or something. Don't take this as a sexism of my own, I am merely putting this into perspective according to normal everyday lives of people living in this particular era.



I will not go against what has been said about Eamon's marriage, seeing as that seems perfectly understandable, although not enough to be considered sexist IMO.



Add all this to the fact that female soldiers are a relatively new concept within the world of Thedas, I find it rather foolish to consider Eamon a sexist just because of the lack of strong women within his arling.

[Adria Teksuni]

LdyShayna, I'm just playing Devil's Advocate at the mo, btw.



For my position that Eamon is a sexist pig, I believe that sexists have an innate dislike/distrust of the opposite sex, which is what drives them to their sexism. That's where my misogynist comment came from, I suppose I should have clarified.



And DeathWyrmNexus, do you think your wife utterly incapable of defending herself, or that she is your property along with your car or your home? Prolly not, as it sounds like she'd clock you but good if you did.



Now my head hurts from thinking up long words and I may have to go lie down.

[DeathWyrmNexus]

Here is something to consider. I only find Eamon mildly sexist because of his tastes in women and his tone when calling Anora "spirited."



Other than that, there is a logical reason for there not to be many lady knights. Heavy Armor. All those knights are wearing heavy armor. Angry One already stated about Denser Musculature and she is right.



I personally love the idea of women in armor because I like women with personality, strong or otherwise but enough of my gynophilia... >_>



So it would take an above average woman to toss on that armor as well as somebody to train her. In the culture, I saw there, it didn't seem that likely. I am not saying that it wasn't possible, there probably was some Lady Knight questing for the Urn and I commend her possibleness.



So yea... I don't think his village is so telling as his choice in women and word choice in discussing Anora after the first meeting.

[The Angry One]

One can be trained to use be comfortable in heavy armor though, besides if you take a look at the troops behind Loghain and Cauthrien in the "bravely run away!" cutscene at Ostagar, there are a fair few women, I counted about 1 woman per 4-5 men or so, in full heavy armour (that heavy chainmail stuff).

[DeathWyrmNexus]

Adria Teksuni wrote...

LdyShayna, I'm just playing Devil's Advocate at the mo, btw.

For my position that Eamon is a sexist pig, I believe that sexists have an innate dislike/distrust of the opposite sex, which is what drives them to their sexism. That's where my misogynist comment came from, I suppose I should have clarified.

And DeathWyrmNexus, do you think your wife utterly incapable of defending herself, or that she is your property along with your car or your home? Prolly not, as it sounds like she'd clock you but good if you did.

Now my head hurts from thinking up long words and I may have to go lie down.

I know she is my kitten but I also trust her to tell me where to stick it if I say something out of line with her. Part of her charm is that she isn't afraid of me. She is 5'3" and I am 6'3", still willing to wrestle me if we get the giddy urge. Has even pinned me a couple times, just a couple as I am a good deal stronger than her but damn is she wily.

I need to give her a hug now for being awesome, excuse me.

K, back. She technically isn't a fighter and a bit of a wuss who hates confrontation. She admits this readily but she also has a keen mind, especially for finance so despite any male dominance I have that she enjoys, she is in charge of our funds. It is just wiser to have her in charge of that.

Wait... Where are we going with this? I suddenly got lost. XD

[DeathWyrmNexus]

The Angry One wrote...

One can be trained to use be comfortable in heavy armor though, besides if you take a look at the troops behind Loghain and Cauthrien in the "bravely run away!" cutscene at Ostagar, there are a fair few women, I counted about 1 woman per 4-5 men or so, in full heavy armour (that heavy chainmail stuff).

True but it also takes some muscle to back that up. I don't understand our particular argument here since I agree with you, just stating that warrior women are the exception not the rule...

So I has a confused as to what we are debating exactly. I'm on your side, I thought. O_O

[Vormaerin]

The Angry One wrote...

That depends on a great many things; men have denser musclacture, sure. But you know what they say, it's not what you've got, it's how you use it!

Yes, but that's talking individuals not groups.   There's a reason why women don't generally become soldiers until the era of modern guns and not sexism.   If you grab 100 men and grab a 100 women, the men will be more fit for the rigors of hand to hand combat.    Obviously, that isn't true of any individual pairing.

But there are clear physiological differences.   Androgen and its effects on muscle development are not myths.

[The Angry One]

I'm just pointing out that there are indeed a fair few heavily armoured women in the game, depending on the region.

Makes me want to visit Gwaren now. "Hey there! Sure I hate Loghain but.. erm.. girl power, rah?"

[The Angry One]

Vormaerin wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

That depends on a great many things; men have denser musclacture, sure. But you know what they say, it's not what you've got, it's how you use it!

Yes, but that's talking individuals not groups.   There's a reason why women don't generally become soldiers until the era of modern guns and not sexism.   If you grab 100 men and grab a 100 women, the men will be more fit for the rigors of hand to hand combat.    Obviously, that isn't true of any individual pairing.

But there are clear physiological differences.   Androgen and its effects on muscle development are not myths.

True to some extent, but in my opinion it's also due to long held psychological traditions that bring up men as fighters and women as servile. I fully believe in the realism of a world such as Thedas where these traditions have been tossed aside, to certain extents.

[DeathWyrmNexus]

The Angry One wrote...

I'm just pointing out that there are indeed a fair few heavily armoured women in the game, depending on the region.
Makes me want to visit Gwaren now. "Hey there! Sure I hate Loghain but.. erm.. girl power, rah?"

Oh no doubt, I saw plenty of them. I just felt like pointing out the why of the ratio we saw though. At least in genetic disposition.

Ya, I was very fond of his girl Centurion squad.