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[Pennoyer]

Women are physically weaker than men and have a more important role as child bearers. Not really surprising that they would be kept from battle. Not sexism. Just reality.

[andybuiadh]

Pennoyer wrote...

Women are physically weaker than men and have a more important role as child bearers. Not really surprising that they would be kept from battle. Not sexism. Just reality.

Smells like troll.

Or idiot.

Maybe both?

[The Angry One]

andybuiadh wrote...

Pennoyer wrote...

Women are physically weaker than men and have a more important role as child bearers. Not really surprising that they would be kept from battle. Not sexism. Just reality.

Smells like troll.

Or idiot.

Maybe both?

Well one had to turn up eventually, I'm surprised there weren't more.

[Pennoyer]

andybuiadh wrote...

Pennoyer wrote...

Women are physically weaker than men and have a more important role as child bearers. Not really surprising that they would be kept from battle. Not sexism. Just reality.

Smells like troll.

Or idiot.

Maybe both?

Just sticking up for Eamon.  There are significant differences between males and females.

[LdyShayna]

Drakron wrote...
And I go back to how she placed her son over everyone and everything.

It's a reasonable theory, I agree.  I just don't recall anything that said this explicitly.
Even then, I still dislike her because she again sacrifices Teagan and Redcliffe to keep her son's secret, luring the bann into a DEFINITE trap this time, rather than just a de facto trap.

[DeathWyrmNexus]

Drakron wrote...

LdyShayna wrote...
While I don't put it past her to lie to the PC, if you ask her why she must take Teagan and only Teagan and my human noble challeneged her at every step, trust me  Heh) , she tells you becaue she convinced "the thing" that only Teagan could help Conner, and she had to promise to only bring Teagan back with her.

She says that for two reasons:

One being they are unaware of the Warden arrival and assumed that was Teagan that was holding up the village.

The other being she was not going to disclose the fact Conner was a abomination in front of perfect strangers that could simply walk out and come back with a full contigent of Templars.

Also Abomination Conner was not exactly pleased that the Village was still standing (its not like you only hear her side of the story), you can think it was a trap but what exactly was stoping from him to take matters personally as it clearly was annoyed by the attack failure? Teagan was a sacrifice in exchange from the abomination not going there and deal with it personally.

Also lets assume she decided to get rid of the abomination that is controlling her son? what would be the end result as far she knows? Conner death and the only thing that prevents that fate is the fact Conner accepted the deal willing that did offer some hope but did she knew that? no ... she still had hope despite everything she knew pointed the fact Conner would die as a result.

And I go back to how she placed her son over everyone and everything.

Actually, I have to say that she put her wants over her son's needs. She wanted him to say home so she took a big risk to keep him there instead of doing what was by her knowledge the best thing for him and giving him up to the Chantry.

This being her knowledge, not my opinion.

[ChemicalGreen]

The Angry One wrote...


True to some extent, but in my opinion it's also due to long held psychological traditions that bring up men as fighters and women as servile. I fully believe in the realism of a world such as Thedas where these traditions have been tossed aside, to certain extents.

Psychological traditions... or the fact that men are more disposable. It takes a woman years to have many children (even with multiple men around), but turn that situation around, you could have plenty of babies on the way after just a week, depending on the relative hotness of women and the amount of viagra available. For the survival of the species, women are more "valuable" than men, and there has been selective pressure towards more family oriented female psychology. (And no, I don't mean by the strictures of horrible patriarchal sexist society) Women who like to tend the house and look after children, curiously enough, tend to have more offspring than those who pick up sword and go "WAAAAAGH!" at the first opportunity.

But my female Warden still kicks righteous butt.

[Danakir]

Pennoyer wrote...

Women are physically weaker than men and have a more important role as child bearers. Not really surprising that they would be kept from battle. Not sexism. Just reality.

I see what you're trying to say there, but the way you said it is... unfortunate in its implications.

It's true that if you think about it, it's best if the people who can bear child or have many more years ahead of them live, since then they can help rebuild and, more importantly for an agricultural community, repopulate the village. As for the elderly, you could argue that they would be more of an hindrance than any help on the battlefield.

It's what's best for the community, objectively enough, if your standards of course are the future prosperity of said community.

However, since when are human logical creatures? It is a bit odd that you can't convince healthy adult women tp fight but that you can convince a pudgy, selfish and untrained bartender who's also most likely out of shape to do just that.

Is there really not a single woman in the village that knows how to use a bow? That seems a bit too much. Really, I can see the logic of their actions, but it's got implications that are less than savory, which is probably why people aren't pleased.

Also, gender politics yay! 

[MrIsidor]

The Angry One wrote...

MrIsidor wrote...

As for complaining about Lloyd being out fighting. I haven't had him out fighting in my games. If he's out there it's because you made him. It's a bit silly then complaining that he's fighting.

Point is I should be able to make Bella and Kaitlyn fight too, if I can make Lloyd of all people.
And if they should happen to tragically fall in battle and never go on to marry Teagan, well, that's just fate isn't it? My hands are clean.

I agree with you that we should be able to force the women to fight, but you can hardly blame Eamon for bioware not allowing us that? Or maybe it's Bioware that's the sexist then?
But Teagan would probably make up some excuse for not letting the women fight, because if they can, he also would have to and then he would have no reason to hide in the chantry as the sissy he is

[The Angry One]

As far as BioWare is concerned I think they're at least trying to show a distinction of attitudes between regions, for better or worse.

And Teagan is the Chantry because Ser Perth told him to. Yeah Ser Perth looks all friendly and reasonable but he's actually very mean to Teagan, and threatened to destroy Teagan's collection of fine Orlesian noble outfits if he came outside. That's my theory and I'm sticking by it.

[Pennoyer]

I think you are all giving Loghain a little too much credit. He was a commoner who rose to a noble. Also, his daughter is a woman of power. Plenty of reasons he would have different views on the social power structure.

[XOGHunter246]

this never really crossed my mind till i read trend now it seems he is bit sexist

[The Angry One]

You forget Cailan also fielded many women in his own army, and never questions your ability as a Grey Warden if you're female, despite having hung around all male wardens for the past few weeks, and he's as champaigne-breast fed noble as they come.

[MrIsidor]

The Angry One wrote...

And Teagan is the Chantry because Ser Perth told him to. Yeah Ser Perth looks all friendly and reasonable but he's actually very mean to Teagan, and threatened to destroy Teagan's collection of fine Orlesian noble outfits if he came outside. That's my theory and I'm sticking by it.

Somehow I think that would not be a bad thing for you. Think of it, without his fancy clothes Teagan would have to go... shirtless!
But no, he choose to stay a sissy and remain in the chantry instead of being a manly man and fight to save redcliffe - shirtless.

[DeathWyrmNexus]

The Angry One wrote...

You forget Cailan also fielded many women in his own army, and never questions your ability as a Grey Warden if you're female, despite having hung around all male wardens for the past few weeks, and he's as champaigne-breast fed noble as they come.

Being married to Anora would quell any Women are Weak thoughts you had. Arl Eamon said the Cailan was a good boy but Anora had him jumping when she snapped since she first batted eyelashes at him.

I think that would keep a guy from being too horribly sexist if he already knew who was governing Fereldon.

[Curlain]

Neanderthal Neanderthal

Danakir wrote...

Pennoyer wrote...

Women are physically weaker than men and have a more important role as child bearers. Not really surprising that they would be kept from battle. Not sexism. Just reality.

I see what you're trying to say there, but the way you said it is... unfortunate in its implications.

It's true that if you think about it, it's best if the people who can bear child or have many more years ahead of them live, since then they can help rebuild and, more importantly for an agricultural community, repopulate the village. As for the elderly, you could argue that they would be more of an hindrance than any help on the battlefield.

It's what's best for the community, objectively enough, if your standards of course are the future prosperity of said community.

However, since when are human logical creatures? It is a bit odd that you can't convince healthy adult women tp fight but that you can convince a pudgy, selfish and untrained bartender who's also most likely out of shape to do just that.

Is there really not a single woman in the village that knows how to use a bow? That seems a bit too much. Really, I can see the logic of their actions, but it's got implications that are less than savory, which is probably why people aren't pleased.

Also, gender politics yay! 

Not the best film ever, but in the 13th Warrior the women of that Viking village fought alongside the male villages throughing spears and what not to fight of the underground Neanderthal-like cannibals attacking them with horses.  So it's possible a community of a similar sort (though admittedly that was a fictional situation) would put all able-bodied people out (at least mabye on the Chantry roof if nothing else, raining death from above (in fact why wern't all the archers on the roof out of reach of the undead?).  Anyhow, given the disperate fight or die, I would see a number of village women picking up bows and what not, more corpses they can drop, less likely they'll get into the Chantry to the children

[Spongecakes]

Men tend to act irrationally (or perfectly rational depending on how you look at it) when confronted with women in distress (I call it the White Knight syndrome).

I believe it's part of the reason why most countries don't send their female combatants to the front lines.

[XOGHunter246]

but in those days men though women was below them anyway i guess

[Herr Uhl]

XOGHunter246 wrote...

but in those days men though women was below them anyway i guess

The days of magic, dwarves, elves and nugs.

[thegreateski]

I would agree with the OP were it not for the fact that Eamon is in a coma.

[Korva]

Man, this thread sure has exploded.

I don't think Isolde is necessarily proof of any more than the fact that love can be blind, deaf and stupid. I can't stand her, and she is a black mark on Eamon's file for me, as is his apparent lack of involvement in Connor's upbringing. But he doesn't raise an eyebrow at a female Warden/warrior, for example, nor at being saved by one.

Regarding what Eamon says about Anora, it may be more a matter of the age difference than anything else. He could easily be her father, and he knew her as a girl, so that probably left a mark. (I'm only five years older than one of my cousins, yet when I think of her, in my mind's eye I still see the cute little girl of almost twenty years ago and not a married woman with a year-old son.) And he does respect her abilities. I agree that if Alistair were a woman, Eamon would still support "her" claim to the throne and not Anora's, simply based on the silly issue of royal blood.

As far as Ser Cauthrien is concerned, I would have liked her a lot better if she had done something like Tamoko did in BG1. Tamoko was clearly deeply loyal to Sarevok (hell, she was his lover until he replaced her with someone more biddable) but that did not, in the end when she could no longer deny how monstrous he had become, prevent her from helping the Bhaalspawn. She wanted Sarevok's power broken and his plans destroyed so she could try saving him from himself. Such a situation with Cauthrien could have led to some interesting interaction and maybe conflict between her and Anora and given more insight into the "queen". It could also have caused some heated discussions among the party (something DA is badly lacking) as a whole and especially with Alistair if Cauthrien asks that Loghain be spared if possible. And it could have given her more much-needed character development as well as a reason for us to be sympathetic towards her.

And about all the "it makes sense that women can't fight" nonsense ... no, it doesn't, ESPECIALLY in dangerous places and especially when you know the enemy will specifically target women for special atrocities (as is usually the case). Women are already at risk, and moreso when they aren't even allowed that most basic right to self-defense. I'm not saying every professional army or mercanary unit in Ferelden needs to be 50/50 -- but when it comes to local militias who are only used in emergencies and general knowledge of self-defense there is no sane reason NOT to have everyone trained in at least basic fighting skills. They will need it. And it makes a successful defense a lot more likely if you double your defenders.

Plus, while women may not be as strong as men that doesn't prevent many real cultures from forcing them to work as hard as men, often with less food and rest. A woman who can chop wood, haul water, beat the crap out of dirty carpets and work the fields would be more than qualified to put on a leather cuirass and pick up a spear or axe to learn how to defend her home, children and elderly parents when all else fails.

Modifié par Korva, 13 décembre 2009 - 12:56 .

[DeathWyrmNexus]

See, that would have made Ser Cauthrien much MUCH more tolerable for me. I don't appreciate a lot of her attitude and actions in the game. The whole backing down only when she lacks a small army didn't sit well with me either...



So DeathWyrmNexus approves of Korva's point in that regard +25.

[The Angry One]

Yeah Cauthrien is far too mired in the depths of Lawful Stupid, if she has a mind of her own she should have some guilt over what Loghain made her do and realise Loghain is destroying himself and the country he loves. Ah well.

[tmp7704]

The Angry One wrote...

Teagan is of course blameless in this whole thing, attempt to implicate him at your peril.

Now now, really.

* Teagan is made the "last line of defence" and the only male in the Chantry who is not a kid or an old man.
* all women from Redcliffe are recalled to the Chantry where they're to stay under Teagan's own, close supervision.
do we really need a graph here to add 2 and 2 together...

[FlintlockJazz]

Just thought I would pipe in: historically, while women did not generally serve in military armies they did in fact fight and were expected to fight in many cultures, often as a second line against attackers. In fact, in some cultures they were feared, due to the common occurence of the attacker breaking through the first line to encounter the second line of fresh fighters consisting of women that are pissed off that you just killed their husbands and are determined to defend their kids. Oh, and it's that time of the month too.