[quote]Elton John is dead wrote...
No. You believed that you knew and you only knew what he believed about them after he wrote that second comment. His first comment suggested nothing of the kind. His following comments aren't what we're discussing.[/quote]
No, I knew precisely what he meant, because he meant the same thing that people like that always mean. His subsequent comments are extremely pertinent because they support my assertion. You don't just get to dismiss them, that's not how logic or debate actually works.
[quote]That's his reply and not his original comment. Either way you missed out most of his comment in that reply where he said that what you had said were half-truths and assumptions which don't make a solid argument. This once again brings us back to the saying that there are two sides to every story.[/quote]
"I ignore new evidence when it doesn't support my conclusion! Waaah!"
Yes, there are two sides to every story. One is generally wrong.
[quote]Who is everyone else? Templars? Mages? Well they would know these things considering they're in The Circle themselves. Hawke doesn't find out until he/she starts getting involved with the whole conflict so I wouldn't say that "everyone else" in Kirkwall knows.[/quote]
How about the relatives of mages? How about anyone who's had cause to visit the Gallows for even five minutes?
Meredith does everything she can to keep the Gallows sealed off from the rest of the world and there are still rumours all over Kirkwall. The only way Elthina could've failed to hear them is if she was literally deaf. She's had a million reasons to call for a thorough investigation into Templar activities, and she never once did her job. She's willfully ignorant. She sweeps the problems under the rug and blocks her ears.
[quote]That's what they say but the human settlements and historians say otherwise. As I said there are two sides to every story and I won't accept either one without solid proof. It's just the claims of both groups.
Human: "Ow! Brother Gnetian, the elf hit me!"
Elf: "Liar! You hit me because you're racist!"
As far as I recall there's really no evidence - as of yet - showing who is telling the truth.[/quote]
As I said before, the past doesn't matter, it is perfectly obvious that elves are being abused and oppressed
now.
[quote]They are apostates though. Meanwhile Merrill learnt blood magic which led to the death of her whole clan proving the necessity of a Circle. Then we had Zavthrin in Origins who - likewise - abused his magical powers resulting in numerous deaths of elves in his clan. The Chantry have no respect for mages running loose and amock simply because of the repercussions that this often causes. There's few free mages that you encounter in DA2 that aren't blood mages.[/quote]Merrill's clan died because they were stupid enough to attack me. That's their own damn fault. Merrill didn't use blood magic to make them impale themselves on Hawke's sword. They had the power to make their own choices, they have only themselves to blame.
The term "apostate" is meaningless unless you follow the Andrastian faith. Why should Dalish Elves like Merrill or Velanna, or atheists like Morrigan be forced to subscribe to a faith they do not believe?
Mages are obviously not as dangerous as you or the Chantry claim. They were overthrown easily enough and have been subjugated for a millenium.
Blood Magic is not inherently evil, I do not subscribe to the notion that turning to blood magic equates to being evil or irresponsible or untrustworthy.
For that matter, the player's personal experience does not dictate reality. Mere commonsense tells us that if the situation were as you describe, the world would already be destroyed.
[quote]Which they deserved or are you content with entire clans, villages and towns being destroyed by blood magic as observed in Origins when Connor was possessed by a demon?[/quote]
Prove that would've happened. Prove it right now.
For that matter, prove that Connor was even using Blood Magic. Raising the Dead is not a spell in the Blood Magic school. Being possessed by a demon does not automatically mean he was using Blood Magic.
[quote]
And when you support freeing vessels for demons you're foolish. The evidence is mostly against you. Free mages don't sit down quietly and practice normal magics. Most of these free mages make pacts with demons and start practicing blood magic in their pursuit for more power or immortality.[/quote]
You would know, because you met every single free mage in Thedas and took a survey, right?
"What activity occupies most of your free time?
A) Fleeing from templars and starving to death.
Living a quiet life so as not to draw attention.
C) Making blood pacts with demons and sacrficing virgins in your quest for immortality."
There could be hundreds and thousands of free mages in Thedas sitting at home, minding their own business and you would never know,
because they are minding their own business.
[quote]" Even Anders - in his anger and lust to destroy The Chantry - resorted to foolishness (letting a spirit into his body) to stop The Chantry and nearly every mage claiming to be working for the good of every other mage resorts to blood magic.[/quote]
Wynne let a spirit into her body. Was she foolish?
Anders spent seven years of his life living in a sewer, healing the poor and homeless while searching for a peaceful solution and trying to be a positive example for magekind. He wasn't even trying to "stop" the Chantry, he was trying to convince it to change its ways by
handing out pamphlets. Truly, he is a monster. He deserves to be put down mercilessly like a common Jehovah's Witness.
[quote]You saw what happened in Origins with Connor. Just one mage being free can cause the deaths of many.[/quote]
One mage being free can also save countless lives. Arguing potential is pointless. By your logic, we should abort every baby because it might be the next Hitler. We should end research into nuclear energy because it might cause us to make more powerful weapons. We should stop trying to cure cancer because we might accidentally unleash a zombie plague. We should never go outside because we might trip and fall headfirst into traffic and then a bus will swerve to avoid us and plow into a daycare, killing all the children inside.
[quote]Before The Chantry was formed that was exactly what was happening or don't you know the history of the Templars? They were formed before The Chantry to battle abominations and blood mages and were actually called the Inquisition. They were formed for a reason and that was because - without a Circle - there was chaos where the mages are concerned.[/quote]
Do
you know the history of the templars?
What the hell happened to "there are two sides to every story and I won't accept either one without solid proof"? Or does that whole argument just fly out the window when it concerns a side that you're already biased against?
[quote]Mages are like demi-gods.[/quote]
Demi-gods that go down with one shiv in the kidney?
[quote]They have power to summon huge pillars of fire and send forth cones of flame and ice from their hands.[/quote]
You make it sound way more impressive than it
actually is.
[quote]If you think that a mage is going to sit down and do nothing with their powers you're mistaken. A mage will either use their powers for good (rarely seen in DA games and even Anders who was healing people didn't just use his powers for good) or use it for their own purpose (observed with nearly every free mage).[/quote]
Why
should mages use their powers for good in a world that hates and fears them by default?
They proved themselves over and over again by serving their country in war. They provide magical goods and potions through their stores. They're an
incredible asset to a society that does nothing to deserve these benefits and actually advocates their mistreatment. If all the mages in the world banded together and scorched the continent of Thedas until no life remained, it would be nothing less than what the people deserve for willingly living in a society based on kidnap and slavery.
[quote]So The Chantry creates "monsters" in the Imperium too? All the abominations and blood mages who existed before The Chantry formed were created by the non-existent Chantry? I never said the current situation within the Circle is good but to say "take it all away and let mages be free" is showing ignorance of what happened in the past in DA when this was so.[/quote]
"Because it happened elsewhere a million years ago, it's definitely going to happen again despite massive cultural shifts, herp de derp derp"
Just like how Japan bombs Pearl Harbour every year.
You don't know anymore about the
actual history of Thedas than I do, you've just decided one version is correct because it lines up with your precoceived bias.
Let's forget that in the
legends and myths of Thedas, magic is said to be plentiful. Let's forget that it waned for centuries and has only in recent years started to increase again. Let's forget that mages are now a disenfranchised minority. Let's forget that the entire culture of Thedas has shifted and an entirely different religion from the one that spawned the Imperium has been in power for the past millenium. Let's forget every single variable that doesn't support your argument that "free mages = hell on earth".
Let's
especially forget that I never claimed to be advocating total mage "freedom" in the first place.
[quote]What are you talking about? Many of the people you meet in Origins are just ordinary people going about their daily lives. Others are jerks - yes - but they aren't crazy jerks who seek to kill you and consume your flesh.[/quote]
No, in both games, the definite majority of people you encounter try to kill you. That's simply how games works.
The fact they are "not crazy" is not a point in their favour. The genuinely insane cannot be blamed for their evil acts because they are not capable of self control and probably don't even realise what they are doing at any given moment.
[quote]So how do you explain the abominations and blood mages that existed before The Chantry and Circle were formed?[/quote]
Well, for starters, the myths and legends of Thedas state almost explicitly that blood magic was originally the
only kind there was. The elves claim that their ancestors in Arlathan used it all the time and taught it to the humans. The humans claim it was learned direct from the Old Gods. Either way, there was no other way to fuel magic until they discovered lyrium, which came later.
Assuming that a large number of abominations existed prior to the formation of the circle (and I am not conviced this is the case), possession and abominations are not necessarily linked to blood magic. They are not necessarily linked to magic
at all. Lady Harimann was possessed by a Desire Demon despite possessing no magical ability. Templars in the Fereldan Circle Tower were possessed enmasse
despite being specially trained for just such a scenario.
Demons are attracted to
strong emotions, particularly fear, and to power of
any kind (poltical, physical, magical, or a combination of any of these). It is a known fact that an otherwise innocent mage can be spontaneously possessed by a demon in a moment of great fear. Like, say, if they're about to be dragged away from their family and never see them again, or if they're about to be raped by someone who is supposed to be protecting them, or if they're about to
undergo a test that might kill them.
Why, it's starting to sound like the current system is not an ideal set up for the nurturing of emotionally stable individuals! Funny that!
The Circle system does more to create abominations than it ever did to prevent them. The only reason it succeeds (by the loosest definition of the term) is because it tranquils and/or outright executes anyone that is arbitrarliy deemed to be "unfit".
[quote] Exactly. It is anti-logic. So why should the Circle (an organization Thedas needs) be destroyed because some Templars and priests are bad? All it needs is to be reformed and mages need more rights but total freedom for mages will result in chaos as observed before The Chantry formed.[/quote]
I didn't say the Circle needed to be destroyed. Obviously mages need to be educated. What I am saying is that it should not be overseen by an organization that preaches zealous hatred of magic as a core tenet of its faith.
Would you entrust the protection of black children to the KKK? No? Then why are you giving mage children to the Chantry?
Even if chaos existed prior to the formation of the Chantry (once again, I don't believe this), that does not mean that the Chantry
specifically was needed. Any sufficiently powerful organization could do the job. Or hell, we could just let individual countries handle it the way
they see fit. There are a billion other ways it could go.
[quote]And so do the Templars and priests.[/quote]
They obviously
don't want to live in peace. They do everything they can to make sure a peaceful coexistence can never happen. The Chantry uses mages as scapegoat for everything wrong with society in Thedas, in order to distract people from the fact that their real problem is, in fact, The Chantry itself.
[quote]Your logic is flawed. The Tevinter Imperium is a bad place - not just because of the slavery - but because of the mages who are seek more power and in their quest for more power they turn to demons just like many mages do in Origins and DA2.[/quote]
You missed my point. If everyone in Tevinter was a normal human being, it would still be a horrible place, because it is founded on horrible ideals. The presence of mages is
irrelevent. If there was no magic, the Tevinter leaders would just use traditional methods of murder and corruption.
[quote]Again you're using anti-logic according to your own standards here. Ser Otto (Origins) was evil? Knight-Commander Greagoir was evil? Ser Emeric was evil? Knight Commander Tavish was evil? They weren't and there are many more Templars who are good and act on behalf of justice and goodness.[/quote]
They support a system founded on slavery. That they ignore massive injustices in favour of correcting minor ones does not speak in their favour.
"What's that? Institutionalized bigotry and rape in my own workplace? No time for that, I'm afraid, I have to help this child find a lost puppy!"
[quote]There is evil and corruption in every organization that has ever existed. If The Chantry should be destroyed because of some Templars and priests being evil and/or corrupt then mages should be burned alive and reduced to ashes.[/quote]
"Corrupt" implies that the Chantry was ever
good. It is founded on bigotry, it can never produce anything but bigotry.
Mages are just ordinary people who have been given an extraordinary gift.
[quote]The Chantry is an organization that simply needs to be reformed.[/quote]
There is nothing "simple" about it. The Chantry is flawed at root. The only way it can be adequately "reformed" is if it somehow admits that its core beliefs are
wrong, and it agrees a) to change them and
relinquish its political power. That's not going to happen, so the only option is to force the change through violence.
[quote]Yes there are bad Templars and priests but there are also bad mages. If The Chantry should be destroyed because some Templars and priests are bad then - according to your own logic - the mages should be destroyed too.[/quote]
That is not what I said. Are you reading my posts at all?
The Chantry needs to be destroyed because it is a bad
system that produces bad people
deliberately. It teaches Templars and ordinary citizens to hate mages, it teaches mages to hate themselves and their gift, it teaches humans to hate elves.
[quote]I don't want either. The mages should be given more freedom but a system like the Circle and Templars still needs to exist otherwise we get the Imperium (not the current one, the one that nearly ruled everywhere in Thedas before they fell) again with mages using all sorts of vile magics in their pursuit for more power.
[/quote]
I never said the Circle needed to go away. I never said the Templars needed to go away.
The
Chantry needs to go away. It should not be in charge of the Circle, it should not be in charge of the Templars. It should not be in charge of anything.
Modifié par Plaintiff, 16 juin 2012 - 07:00 .
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